Is Driver Assist over powered now?

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by FazerT, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. FazerT

    FazerT

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    Has something changed with the Driver Assist since 1.6? I don't use any assist other than ABS on default and had been [mostly] enjoying progressing through the grades and was just into DR B and have been SR S for a while. Over the past few days I noticed the lap times in the races were getting closer between pole and last place, often within a second! The races have become very bunched and it's really difficult to make progress of shake someone tailgating.

    I watched a few replays looking for what my competition was doing better that made them so hard to pass of shake and saw that the vast majority were using one or several Driver Assists.

    The people running stability management specifically seem to be able to just throw the car into anything technical and it just gets sorted, which makes first corners a nightmare and negotiating technical sections almost impossible on some tracks as they rarely use the correct line or braking zone as it's non-critical for them.
    This means they often tap you on the rear going in, whereby you get 50/50 chance of being slammed into a barrier and lose 5 places or the slight correction gets you passed anyway by the driver assist system making the other car like a tank when getting into contact, they don't hardly change position.

    I don't remember it being so obvious in the past, if anything it used to be pretty easy to pass someone using TCS and any other assists because they were inexperienced and the assists used to have a speed penalty. This seems to be no longer the case and there are many good drivers out there exploiting the assists to make the chance of any error impeding your laps pretty low.

    The other down side of this is that many of the less than sportsman like drivers are also up in the pack and where in the past they would have spun out and rage quit early on, seem to be able to stay competitive and stable while they bump and slam their way through the race.

    Seems to me like you should get a limited time use of Driver Assists before the game locks you out of them. Or there should be separate Sport Mode races for cars with no DA. A bit like a "Pro" mode or something. Maybe TCS could be allowed as I think this has a penalty to the responsiveness of the car and can be beaten by a good driver without, but the system correcting serious handling errors should not be a part of any competitive racing game.

    What do you lot think, if you haven't fallen asleep trying to get through the book I just wrote ;)
     
  2. BarryB

    BarryB

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    This might explain the porsche that was 2 seconds faster than everyone else (inc the other 8 porsches) on Suzuka and seemed to be able to hurl his car through the esses near the start without ever getting out of shape. Sucks if its true though. I use tcs, but accept Im penalised by it if I get too out of shape. Im ok with that. It gives me accessibility without an advantage, which is what other spassists should do imo. If theyre providing an advantage then they will ruin the racing by eradicating errors. It was hard enough to move up cleanly in 10 laps on some tracks as it was, let alone if every little slip and slide gets taken out.
     
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  3. Be4you

    Be4you

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    I am totally agree with you. I’m driving without aids, and before the patch I created a good gap when I drive smooth and clean. Now it’s almost impossible to create a gap, if u are not lucky enough to start at pole position and get a good gap in the first corner. I have notice after patch 1.06 ppl are racing much more aggressive, before the patch aggressive driving usually made you crash sooner or later.
     
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  4. FazerT

    FazerT

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    This is my point exactly, [more so in 3 laps!] with those little errors taken out it just feels impossible to progress significantly without waiting for someone to get knocked off up front. I hope they fix this
     
    Be4you likes this.
  5. FazerT

    FazerT

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    73
    Yes to this. Driving smooth always allowed you to pull away from any reckless drivers behind, but now it seems easier for them to stay close while weaving around behind. Something's not right.
     
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  6. cleanLX

    cleanLX

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    Location:
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    Agreed.
     
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  7. Be4you

    Be4you

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    I did a test, after about 15 laps on Nürburgring GP in the Porsche (not used to drive that car) I got a qualifying time 1:57.020 without anny aids, was a clean and smooth lap. But was maybe a bit late on full throttle as that car tends to wanna spin out. I did 3 laps with stability ads, and counter steer ads. I did a lap time 1:56,2 and that was not a good run. I’m shure u can hit 1:55 with ads now. And it’s almost impossible to spin out, still without tsc. That is in my opinion stupid
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
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  8. Shottah072

    Shottah072

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    894
    Haha no way any assist is gonna give a 10 sec advantage.
     
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  9. FazerT

    FazerT

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    73
    I was racing the daily at Nurburgring today in the 911 too, you're a couple of seconds faster than me without assists :)

    I always liked that track because of that crazy hairpin at the end of the start/finish straight and the little low speed chicane at the end of the lap; those places were worth practicing as you can make up seconds on less practiced drivers, but not now. Today I couldn't gain anything on the masses at these points. In fact it's worse than that, I was passed up the inside by a Ferrari under braking for that final chicane. I thought "he's definitely off" but nope, weaved straight through wobbling and slewing but not losing time or track position. Checked the replay, he had all assists on.

    Only two of us were driving with no assists, the other 17 drivers in that race had some combination of DA's on. The other guy finished last while I came 12th having been spun out of 5th on lap 2 at the end of the S/F straight. The guy who hit me while turning in, simply wobbled a bit and drove away with the place. It sucks. I don't mind being beaten by better drivers, but this feels like they have a cheat code enabled and yet it's built in to the game!
     
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  10. FazerT

    FazerT

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    You are correct for a perfect lap of what's possible for that car on that track - but most of us aren't perfect.

    Where someone can lose a tenth or a second on entry and exits through tiny corrections or errors in consistency, the stability and counter steer prevent those things being a problem and you go through the sector without fear of losing it. In it's current state (and I believe this is since 1.6) it's the equivalent of an Aimbot in an FPS.
     
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  11. Shottah072

    Shottah072

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    894
    Since 1.6 i use only ABS at default and yesterday day i was 3 tenths of top 10 and the day before i was #4 on the EU leaderboard. In clean air i can do 10 laps all within couple tenths. So perfectly possible to go fast and be consistent without assist. In fact the update made it better to drive without assist as before i was using TC2 sometimes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
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  12. FazerT

    FazerT

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    73
    I think you missed my point or proved it lol.

    If you're a very good driver, say top 10 in Europe (there are only 10 of you in the whole of Europe) then, as I said, you will be making far fewer mistakes than most and so the benefit of any assist is not felt.
    For the other million races out there who make errors all the time on almost every corner, it's where the places are lost and gained throughout the race. Using DA's enables many mistakes to be overlooked and yes this brings the racing closer for the masses, but no skill is learned as people simply hit the brake for a corner then hit the gas on exit and there is no subtlety and it becomes a procession or a bumper car game.

    Congrats on the #4 in EU btw :)
     
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  13. BSDShoes

    BSDShoes

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    Location:
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    ^ this is absolutely ridiculous if that's what's happening. I drive with zero assists and even some cars seem easier to drive after 1.06 but I'd be annoyed if assists actually gave you that big of a time advantage when they normally would make you slower.
     
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  14. mirial

    mirial

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    @FazerT

    I fully agree with you and this is happening at all levels. Assists other than ABS are one of the biggest curses of GTS not only for the reasons you have explained, but because it doesn't teach anybody anything - not for getting better at the game and satisfaction from that, not for driving on the road and not for looking to become a better club driver in real life. Yes, the physics are tricky and I agree that there is 'dead zone' approaching the limit before it lets go, but you don't have to be an oversteer merchant to work around the problem to be competitive. Some finesse, and practice of balancing the front and rear together or even inducing understeer into the front end virtually eliminates anything horrible from happening, in Gr.3 at least.

    I don't have a problem if they are used by someone on a learning curve (even though this is inherently a long-term mistake) and used responsibly, but it gives too many ambitious folk a false sense of security, and just about every time someone has dived through and taken me out they have used either ASM or TCS or Countersteer assist. Generally, those that don't use the extra assists, also lap much more consistently, within 2-3 ths typically on a 2 minute lap compared to 1-1.5 secs with those using at least one extra, proving that their driving is both aggressive and hurried. Coming off the assists would require a whole new approach.....which could take a while if practiced though.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
  15. FazerT

    FazerT

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    The 10 seconds is not an absolute as I'm sure Be4you could get his non assist time down with more practice laps, but the thing is it does negate the need to practice significantly. Casual gamers can now jump into a race switch on assists and compete without all that training and spinning out. it may only be a second for some people but often that's enough to close a gap they couldn't before through lack of skill.
     
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  16. Shottah072

    Shottah072

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    894
    I just wouldnt want to call assists a unfair advantage cause at the highest level i think they are not. But i get what you are saying. At the lower levels if you are still learning to drive without assist then the ones with assist are gonna have a advantage every now and then. But this imo is not because the assist are OP but because your level of driving just needs to develop further.
     
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  17. GTFraker

    GTFraker

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    Watch people's replays, the top 10 fastest almoat always have some kind of assist on. None of those laps are tidy or in control either, it's mostly some dude who is throwing his car all over the curbs on full throttle like a crazy person.
     
  18. ZnA1209

    ZnA1209

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    I don't get this at all. I have zero problem with assists and I don't get this elitism toward assists at all.

    Real world racing, cars have TCS and ABS and if you were to go into a series where it's allowed and used and took your "assists aren't fair" attitude, you'd lose. And rightly so.

    If you don't want to use assists in a modern car sim, where the cars in that sim were designed around these electronics... And then find out you're slower, thats your problem, don't tell me I shouldn't be allowed to use them.

    At least PC2 is more realistic in that it allows you to specify historically accurate driving aids, and cars that never historically had them, don't have them, and cars that have them, and are designed around them, do.
     
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  19. KungFury

    KungFury (Banned)

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    The grip levels where increased not the aid levels, everything is easier now.
     
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  20. ZnA1209

    ZnA1209

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    That's a physics issue, not an electronic assists issue, that's always been like that in GT games which have never had super realistic physics. That kind of driving wouldn't fly in AC or PC2.
     
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  21. GTFraker

    GTFraker

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    TCS and ABS are not considered assists, I meant CS and ASM
     
  22. FazerT

    FazerT

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    It's an interesting debate and again I agree your point that at the highest lever they don't matter as much.
    My concern is for those of us that are not at that high level and are attempting to improve, it is incredibly hard to improve good race technique when DA allows others around you to ignore essential race techniques. While you position yourself for the correct corner entry and trail brake in at the perfect speed, someone else dives up the inside and wobbles past you under assist mode.

    My point here is not that people shouldn't have access to learner assists, but those assists should not allow a driver to break the laws of physics or by having faster than human reactions, to correct terrible driving practices thereby screwing up the race for others trying to race clean and improve technique.

    My post is about the 1.6 changes making the system OP not the need for a fair DA system in the first place. Races are being ruined over the past week, seriously.

    As to your point about my driving needing to develop, I agree. Non of us should ever stop learning and I have much to improve on. My typical times are around 4 seconds of the EU leaderboard times. that used to be enough for me to qualify top 10 for most races and finish in the top 5 but no more. Most are getting within 2 seconds of the EU times with assists.

    If you want to share your skills, add me on PSN=Nzime I'd be up to running some laps in a lobby with someone who is fast to show me where I can improve :)
     
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  23. ZnA1209

    ZnA1209

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    Ah, I don't use either of those.
     
  24. ZnA1209

    ZnA1209

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    Agreed, assists should be allowed up to the point that they don't stretch or break the physics system.
     
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  25. FazerT

    FazerT

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    It's not elitism, I don't object to assists that function in a realistic way.
    My point is that since1.6 the advantage of using these assists is greater than real world physics should allow. They throw the car into turns off the racing line and too fast and the system keeps them on track and gets them through it without incident. There seems no penalty for bad driving. In the real world an assist may prevent you crashing out but you would lose a lot of speed as a result. In GTS at the moment, that's not the case.
     
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  26. FazerT

    FazerT

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    Agreed, I'm not bothered about people using TCS or ABS (I just have ABS default)
    It's the CS & ASM that turn your car into a Eurofighter ;)
     
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  27. BSDShoes

    BSDShoes

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    647
    Location:
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    Yes in almost every race I'm in (SR S) and watching the replay after, the first 2 drivers at least has almost all the assists on, even the stability crap.
     
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  28. Jamie Bbbbb

    Jamie Bbbbb

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    614
    So no one else is going to realise that a 1:45 at the Nurburgring in a Gr.3 is rather absurd? I think it's safe to say Be4you made a typo (or two) there.
     
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  29. Shottah072

    Shottah072

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    Must have been a typo indeed the very fastest were doin 1:53.
     
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  30. FazerT

    FazerT

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    My quickest in todays daily was 1:59. I'm wondering if it wasn't BoP or maybe a typo as you said
     
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