Is Driver Assist over powered now?

[CConspicuous]

I've said on more than one occasion that the TCS is ruining the game for me, this is what I said in another thread about it:

The TCS is still very buggy and potentially game-breaking with some cars, it's getting beyond annoying and it seems to have spread to some of the Gr.3 cars from the Gr.1 cars since v1.06.

Seriously? Did Polyphony outsource the TCS coding/engine to Peter Molyneux or Yogventures? The way the TCS kicks in and behaves it totally wrong.

Sometimes you will get a clean exit from a turn with satisfyingly perfect traction and the TCS will suddenly decide to kick in, violently borking the car sideways off towards the inside wall because it's application has caused the car to lose all the traction that the TCS supposed to be ensuring!

It does this on totally randomly occasions over apexes, bumps, on the exits of tight corners, on the exits of medium corners, in the middle of corners, on gearshifts, if you're unlucky it will start eating away at your speed during flatout turns and sometimes it just leaves you awkwardly having to coast the car around bends simply because you just don't trust it to not completely screw up your throttle application, it's ridiculous.

Another side effect of TCS I've noticed is that it sometimes will kick in when there's absolutely no wheelspin during a corner or on turn-in, causing the car to refuse to 'bite' and start to understeer wildly, do the following and you'll see what I mean:

Go to the Nordschliefe in the M6 GT3 car (it happens with quite a few cars but this is my given example) and take Hatzenbach as you normally would (usually with either a lift off the throttle or a dab of the break) five times, start of with TCS on 0 and go up a level each time, you'll notice how each time it will pick up hints of understeer that didn't exist before.

Why is this happening? Well the TCS appears to be coded to prevent the slip-angle of the car's tyres, which is essentially how tyres generate their grip through turns, for example; and F1 car would require a 4-6 degree slip angle to generate their grip. This is the only logical explanation I can think of as to why that understeer specifically occurs and ties on to what I suspect is wrong with the TCS in GT Sport:

It's not coded react to the wheelspin or loss of traction and to then apply the usual combination of measures to limit that loss of traction which are;

• Subtle braking on one or more wheels.
• Reducing ignition or fuel flow.
• Reducing the throttle or boost pressure (if the car is turbocharged)

it's reacting to the car in general slipping in any way (including slip-angle) then simulating TCS by applying only a harsh braking force in the most stability jarring way possible, none of the other measures.

Also, because I know people will inevitably ask what's my background to speak on TCS: I've been a motorsport journalist and photographer since 2009, I've also raced occasionally in club races and got to dick about in GT4 and GT3 cars occasionally at tests / experience events, so I know how TCS is supposed to behave and in racecars it's usually never involving brakes, either that or it's very subtle to the point you do not notice. TCS in real-life works in a way which doesn't rob the car of it's slip-angle.

Unfortunately GT Sport's TCS seems to work in a way which does rob the car of it's slip-angle...

 

[FazerT]

The top 10 times were in the very low 54's by mid afternoon. The fastest guys were hitting very low 55's in the race.

I haven't run this track to death but I do know it well and struggle to get into the low 1:59.xxx consistently. I would love someone to show me where they get 5 seconds a lap so I knew which technique to work on most to give me at least a couple of seconds off my efforts.

I know it's probably a little of everything at every corner in and out multiplied to give 5 seconds. But really that doesn't help

 

[FerrellJ]

Unless you're an alien, I would advise everyone to use TC and CSA when online

I think it depends on the control method and the vehicle. Personally, I use a wheel and only race Gr.4 cars. I haven't really found it necessary to run anything besides ABS in those. The RWD (especially MR) cars can be a little sketchy over the curbs but that's part of what makes them enjoyable and rewarding to drive. As long as I can keep up with people that I feel are at my skill level, I'm happy.

I haven't put as much time into the Gr.3 cars but they are more challenging for me to drive competitively with just ABS. To keep up, I need to run TCS2 and that takes most of the enjoyment out of driving those cars for me which is why I haven't spent much time in them. I know the real world counterparts use TC but I feel it's a bit like F1- the easier the car is to drive at 9/10ths, the harder it is to drive at 10/10ths. You need to constantly push it to the edge to be competitive and I'm just not very good at that.

I do wish people would focus more on consistency rather than raw speed though. I think that would make the assists less of a necessity in some cars. Maybe if longer events start to become the norm that will change.

 

[Stotty]

I haven't run this track to death but I do know it well and struggle to get into the low 1:59.xxx consistently. I would love someone to show me where they get 5 seconds a lap so I knew which technique to work on most to give me at least a couple of seconds off my efforts.

I know it's probably a little of everything at every corner in and out multiplied to give 5 seconds. But really that doesn't help

I have 3 of yesterdays races saved in my gallery... send me a FRQ (psn in my signature) and download/watch them... you can watch their lines/corner speeds/gears etc. 2 of the races have some of the fastest drivers in Europe in them.

 

[FazerT]

I'm talking top 10 regional qualifying... if you're not within at least 2 seconds of the Alien times (ideally 1s), switch the assists on.

Unless you're an Alien, you will go faster and your laps will be more consistent... and as a result, your total race time will fall by huge margins.

The enjoyment from racing (for me at least), is not how realistic the aids are, but how close and clean the racing is... anything enables faster, closer, cleaner racing is good... the cars still handle properly with assists on... the same skills are needed... but the margin for error increases.

Hot lapping is another thing all together... there, the enjoyment comes from simply driving.

You make a good pusher. I feel like I'm being sold drugs and while excited to try, I'm afraid I may get to like them!

 

[Stotty]

You make a good pusher. I feel like I'm being sold drugs and while excited to try, I'm afraid I may get to like them!

Mmmmmm... drugs

 

[Marckyboy]

In the interest of science in going to try the same track and same car later to see what difference they make. I would say I'm an average to decent driver but certainly not rubbish and usually don't use any assistance except mild abs.

So for a bit of fun which assist do you think will make me quicker ?

 

[Stotty]

I think it depends on the control method and the vehicle. Personally, I use a wheel and only race Gr.4 cars. I haven't really found it necessary to run anything besides ABS in those. The RWD (especially MR) cars can be a little sketchy over the curbs but that's part of what makes them enjoyable and rewarding to drive. As long as I can keep up with people that I feel are at my skill level, I'm happy.

I haven't put as much time into the Gr.3 cars but they are more challenging for me to drive competitively with just ABS. To keep up, I need to run TCS2 and that takes most of the enjoyment out of driving those cars for me which is why I haven't spent much time in them. I know the real world counterparts use TC but I feel it's a bit like F1- the easier the car is to drive at 9/10ths, the harder it is to drive at 10/10ths. You need to constantly push it to the edge to be competitive and I'm just not very good at that.

I do wish people would focus more on consistency rather than raw speed though. I think that would make the assists less of a necessity in some cars. Maybe if longer events start to become the norm that will change.

I don't use TC with grp4 cars (not powerful enough to need it), but I do use CSA for the very reason you mention - kerb grip. CAS allows you to go much harder on the throttle whilst on the kerbs, which on a lot of tracks allows you to get a fractionally better exit speed.

 

[Fredzy]

I'm not sure about ASM/TC etc. It's mostly the non-defeat assists that influenced me to give the game a break for a while.

The driving itself isn't very enjoyable for me. When the competition is good though, it's good, and it's always there. So I've been coming back. I'm going to sound like an 🤬 but this game does too much to make bad drivers competitive. God forbid I get punted and fall backward into the abyss, because it's a very dirty job trying to get back. You pretty much need to wait until someone has a big off to pass. A small off won't be enough - you either won't get past clean or they'll be close enough at the next corner to ram you, set you back multiple positions. SR: S my 🤬

And while I agree with giving controller users some sort of help to stay competitive with wheel users, the current setup is too much. Watching faster controller user replays with the same vehicle is really disheartening.

 

[BigDawg_1281]

The top 10 times were in the very low 54's by mid afternoon. The fastest guys were hitting very low 55's in the race.

Like I said, I'm not a fast driver at all. I can usually qualify within 2 secs of 10th on the leaderboard tho.

Edit: I will try the CSA and see if it helps some on exit. I use TC some, depends on car really. The problem I have with TC is the car becomes unpredictable. I used it at 2 yesterday in race some and 0 for qualifying

 

[Stotty]

In the interest of science in going to try the same track and same car later to see what difference they make. I would say I'm an average to decent driver but certainly not rubbish and usually don't use any assistance except mild abs.

So for a bit of fun which assist do you think will make me quicker ?

CSA doesn't deliver big absolute lap time gains... it doesn't actually deliver any lap time gains if you're already highly skilled. It's much more about enabling you to run more consistent lap times and reducing your driver error rate.

You can't abuse CSA like traction control - it won't save you from spinning if you hammer the gas, in a low gear, with lock on. You still have to drive 'properly'. In fact it works best the more 'properly' you drive.

What it does is widen the margin for error on exit throttle applications. What do I mean by that?

You've done the 1st part of cornering correctly, and you're at the apex with no understeer and the correct amount of steering angle applied. You're next action is to start picking up the throttle, progressively increasing application as you decrease lock approaching the exit point... this is where most people struggle... they are so eager to get on the gas that they give it just a fraction too much, lose the rear and are sideways/slipping/losing time at the worst possible moment.

What CSA does is increase the amount of throttle you can use without letting the tyres spin... it doesn't INCREASE absolute traction... it just acts as a very subtle traction control.

Say maximum throttle position before losing traction for a given situation is 50%... if you apply 100%, you will spin. If you apply 75%, you'll get a big sideways that you catch, but looses you loads of time. If you apply 55%, you'll just get a bit of oversteer that doesn't kill you but does lose you c.0.5 along the following straight.

CSA just subtlety gives you that extra safety net - apply 55% throttle, and it only allows 50% to go to the tyres.

In a race, it's a good way to cover for those moments when you're under pressure - either trying to get a good exit to stop someone passing you on the next straight or to get the best possible exit to make a pass on someone you're following - when you might get over eager and give the car a fraction too much gas.

It won't make you an Alien though

 

[Shottah072]

Like I said, I'm not a fast driver at all. I can usually qualify within 2 secs of 10th on the leaderboard tho.

Edit: I will try the CSA and see if it helps some on exit. I use TC some, depends on car really. The problem I have with TC is the car becomes unpredictable. I used it at 2 yesterday in race some and 0 for qualifying

I did 1:55.4 without assist in the Porsche but Nurb GP is very technical circuit and i did noticed i struggled a bit on consitency compared to the competition, experimented with TC1 the second race. That gave me some consistency but made me a bit slower as well.

 

[Veinz]

Seems like TC is more of benefit to the faster cars, but it will hurt slower cars like in gr4. Tried CSA and it felt too intrusive.

ABS is the only one that I think is clearly beneficial.

 

[Stotty]

I did 1:55.4 without assist in the Porsche but Nurb GP is very technical circuit and i did noticed i struggled a bit on consitency compared to the competition, experimented with TC1 the second race. That gave me some consistency but made me a bit slower as well.

Think I saw you in one of the races I was in late yesterday afternoon.

I would say CSA on and TC fully off is the optimum combination for someone at your level looking for more consistency (similar to me - I was 1'55.1 in qualifying). CSA doesn't limit exit speed anywhere near as much as TC2 (TC1 may as well be off - it only really works in a low gear in a straight line).

Quite a few of the fast boys use CSA.

Seems like TC is more of benefit to the faster cars, but it will hurt slower cars like in gr4. Tried CSA and it felt too intrusive.

ABS is the only one that I think is clearly beneficial.

CSA is far less restrictive than TC.

 

[PJTierney]

@Stotty Are the top drivers using CSA on "Full" or "Mild"?

 

[Stotty]

@Stotty Are the top drivers using CSA on "Full" or "Mild"?

I don't know... you can't tell from the replay screen.

 

[FazerT]

Well I hao give it a go didn't I, after all this chatter
Just did some Qually on the interlragos daily. The top guys on the leaderboad are using the megane, so did I.

I ran about 10 laps to warm up with no assists and my best time was a 1:39.8xx
The top guy has a 1:36.7xx.
I had an average of 1:40.xxx though but interestingly, my Optimum taking the best bits of each lap had me capable of a 1:38.8xx.

For brevity, I messed about with different assists and found that No TCS and CSA enabled worked for me and allowed me to make consistent 1:39.5xx and a coupe of 1:38.7xx! which was my predicted optimum from earlier.

So yes it makes you more consistent. And I'm kind of glad that it didn't make me faster than my potential

I may give it a go in a few races now - wearing a hoodie and some dark shades

 

[VFOURMAX1]

You make a good pusher. I feel like I'm being sold drugs and while excited to try, I'm afraid I may get to like them!

Sounds like it is time for some classic Steppenwolf jam, The Pusherman!

 

[FazerT]

Sounds like it is time for some classic Steppenwolf jam, The Pusherman!

Man I love that song!

...then lets hope for my sake he a dealer, selling lots of sweet dreams

 

[Stotty]

Well I hao give it a go didn't I, after all this chatter
Just did some Qually on the interlragos daily. The top guys on the leaderboad are using the megane, so did I.

I ran about 10 laps to warm up with no assists and my best time was a 1:39.8xx
The top guy has a 1:36.7xx.
I had an average of 1:40.xxx though but interestingly, my Optimum taking the best bits of each lap had me capable of a 1:38.8xx.

For brevity, I messed about with different assists and found that No TCS and CSA enabled worked for me and allowed me to make consistent 1:39.5xx and a coupe of 1:38.7xx! which was my predicted optimum from earlier.

So yes it makes you more consistent. And I'm kind of glad that it didn't make me faster than my potential

I may give it a go in a few races now - wearing a hoodie and some dark shades

I didn't find it very effective in the Megane when I tested last week.

You should notice the benefit it much more in RWD cars

 

[FazerT]

I didn't find it very effective in the Megane when I tested last week.

You should notice the benefit it much more in RWD cars

What, better than 5 tenths off appearing on the EU leaderboard! I'll buy you a beer if that ever happens Mind you, this is day one, and 1 hour into my new setup and I haven't raced it for real yet.

Will give it a go now and find out if the rest of the EU are also running 1:39.xxx as standard lol

 

[Shottah072]

Seems like TC is more of benefit to the faster cars, but it will hurt slower cars like in gr4. Tried CSA and it felt too intrusive.

ABS is the only one that I think is clearly beneficial.

Yeah i feel the same.

Gr4 dont need any

Gr3 depends on car, track and amount of practice you can put in.

CSA, ive tried it but i just dont like how it drives

Think I saw you in one of the races I was in late yesterday afternoon.

I would say CSA on and TC fully off is the optimum combination for someone at your level looking for more consistency (similar to me - I was 1'55.1 in qualifying). CSA doesn't limit exit speed anywhere near as much as TC2 (TC1 may as well be off - it only really works in a low gear in a straight line).

Quite a few of the fast boys use CSA.



CSA is far less restrictive than TC.

Yeah i noticed you as well.

I have tried CSA when there was still setups with MINKIHL's setups wich had it on as well as TC2, on tight tracks like Nurb or Interlagos it helped on consistency but fast track like kyoto not so much. But i just didnt like the feel of it, made te cars to dull to drive for my liking. Not sure if i tested without TC might try that still.

 

[BigDawg_1281]

I did 1:55.4 without assist in the Porsche but Nurb GP is very technical circuit and i did noticed i struggled a bit on consitency compared to the competition, experimented with TC1 the second race. That gave me some consistency but made me a bit slower as well.

I think eventually I will get my times down around the 55s on the Nurb GP. I just made the switch from pad to wheel last Tuesday. I have around 15 races under my belt with the wheel.

 

[Marckyboy]

In the interest of science in going to try the same track and same car later to see what difference they make. I would say I'm an average to decent driver but certainly not rubbish and usually don't use any assistance except mild abs.

So for a bit of fun which assist do you think will make me quicker ?

Did some experimenting on the mx5 sport challenge. With TCS 1 and no counter steer unmanaged 50.047, with no TCS and counter steer week I managed 49.765. I could just be me getting better but crucially with either setting I could casually do a 50.2 without much effort. Both with and default by the way as that did seem a bit quicker than weak.

 

[FazerT]

Mind you, this is day one, and 1 hour into my new setup and I haven't raced it for real yet.
Will give it a go now and find out if the rest of the EU are also running 1:39.xxx as standard lol

Well I gave it a go with Just Stability Assist on and the difference for me was night and day. Started 2nd on the grid, had a right scrap with the 1st place guy who pushed me off the circuit while I was passing him. At this point I'm dead certain I would had slid off into oblivion had I not had the Stability Assist on! but managed to hang on to the pass and even to scrub off the 3 second penalty I got before the end of that lap without losing the lead.
The 4th place guy pin-ball'ed into the 2nd and 3rd place guys at the end of the pit straight on the last lap (he had all Assists on) and held 2nd to the end!
I only bloody won

The consistency is the big thing. my times were what I could achieve without assists, but under the duress of fighting for position it probably made the difference between holing on to a win over spinning off and coming in 13th on the last lap.

I have to thank everyone who contributed to this debate. It has made me change my opinion as to what is acceptable in on-line racing. I remain a purist at heart and if there was a no-Assist category for the daily races I would be there. But I'm a realist too, I like fair competition and if it's in the game then its fair to use. So, I'm going to continue to use ASM until something changes that makes it redundant

 

[Marckyboy]

Just completed 8 mx5 sport races (won them all for once :-) and actually jumped from driver rating D to B which seems easy!?. This thread has made me consider assists i wouldn't use before. I won with and without counter steer week setting, always with abs default and no TCS.

When qualifying if I take my best possible laptime from the display as seems the fairest comparison;

With counter steer week: 49:358
Without counter steer: 49.468

Close but on a short lap for me it is making a slight difference.

 

[Tristan Jones]

I'm talking top 10 regional qualifying... if you're not within at least 2 seconds of the Alien times (ideally 1s), switch the assists on.

Unless you're an Alien, you will go faster and your laps will be more consistent... and as a result, your total race time will fall by huge margins.

The enjoyment from racing (for me at least), is not how realistic the aids are, but how close and clean the racing is... anything enables faster, closer, cleaner racing is good... the cars still handle properly with assists on... the same skills are needed... but the margin for error increases.

Hot lapping is another thing all together... there, the enjoyment comes from simply driving.

Yet again I am torn between using assists or not...

After reading the comments in this thread I now want to try/ experiment with using

I race (in the slowest division! of) a weekly league race that has me practising more days than not, and the rules don't allow assists (though TCS/ apex markers are allowed). I have only yesterday turned TCS down to 0. I had experimented with it occasionaly, but found myself looping too often, so was too cautious to make any lap time improvements - so I left it on. However, after 1.06 update, TCS3 feels much more like TCS0, you need to ease throttle on a bit slower to avoid looping. So I jumped in the deep end, and after last nights practise can get some good times with TCS0. I still need to check if it is faster than my TCS3 times, but I will probably leave it off.

I will experiment to see if the other assists make me faster or not for sport mode...but what conflicts me is the driving style/ habits that driving with assists might create. Normally wouldn't be an issue but racing in Sport mode with assists on occasionaly, and racing weekly/ practising daily with assists off may confuse my finger muscle memory... :|

Edit - Is it possible to tune a car to replicate ASM? Eg adjust toe or camber a bit? Does ASM negate turn in ability at all?

 

[ElementRacer]

This may explain why im having so much trouble with these RWD racers in GR4. I use a Huracan, with only ABS on low, and can lap less than 2 seconds slower than the Meganes, the amount of Corvettes, Vipers and Porsches that keep up with me when their driving lines are all wrong has been really screwing with me. I've been putting in consistent 1:40"000 laps at Interlagos, the 4WD helps a lot, but I treat every lap as a practice lap, and focus on the track more than the other drivers, unless im side by side with one, and these guys just throw themselves around the track, and somehow keep pulling times on par with me.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I think eventually I will get my times down around the 55s on the Nurb GP. I just made the switch from pad to wheel last Tuesday. I have around 15 races under my belt with the wheel.

What is your impression of driving with a wheel so far? Overall easier or harder? Faster or slower? Are you using the same assists?

 

[FazerT]

Yet again I am torn between using assists or not...

After reading the comments in this thread I now want to try/ experiment with using

Edit - Is it possible to tune a car to replicate ASM? Eg adjust toe or camber a bit? Does ASM negate turn in ability at all?

Any tuning you do will not carry through to Sport mode races as it's all locked under the BoP rules

You can't Tune for ASM because any tuning is a passive thing and ASM is actively changing based on what the car is doing at that moment. Any tuning will affect car handling but it's when you push beyond your or the cars limit that some active system needs to respond to the issue at that moment.