Is Gran Turismo prepared to compete with next gen physics?

Discussion in 'Kazunori Yamauchi Q&A' started by ChipChaserJ, Jun 6, 2014.

  1. ChipChaserJ

    ChipChaserJ

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    If you go to "physics thread" under "project CARS" there is a member of the development there who is divulging juicy tidbits of how the next gen physics are going to make all currently available sim racers feel like Mario Cart.
    My question is: Is the Gran Turismo franchise set up to implement a ground up restructuring of how the physics system works to stay relevant for years to come?

    A good example is Rock Band 3's Pro Guitar mode with a MIDI compatible guitar was inferior in every way to Rocksmith with and standard electric guitar. Rock Band and Guitar Hero are now dead and buried while Rocksmith now enjoys the fruits of the departed's labor and as much as I loved Guitar Hero, I am now hardcore into Rocksmith.
     
  2. JohnScoonsBeard

    JohnScoonsBeard

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    Good question. I like the way it's structured. It covers a few angles.
     
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  3. Roger the Horse

    Roger the Horse

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    One assumes Yamauchi-san's answer will be yes...
     
  4. Streeto

    Streeto

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    Possibly in a future update, maybe...

    Soon.
     
  5. occasionalracer

    occasionalracer

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    I think there's lot's of evidence they are working on/towards an even more complex physics engine given the workings with KW Suspensions and Yokohoma Tire. There's clearly improvements that need to be made, I definitely can feel the physics engine falling apart at the limit, especially online, which I think would be fair to blame on PS3's meager processing power.

    The problem that exists here for the average GT gamer on a controller and perhaps even the DFGT wheel, is that FFB is the vital part of the equation of picking up and using the improved physics for that final bit of precision at the limit where GT fall short. There's a limit to the amount of data that can be sent to cheaper wheels, and the efficiency of the motors ability of giving those small and accurate cue's a better physics engine would provide.. an important part of getting that ultimate 'pure connection' to the car. I'm just trying to say that I doubt controller user would benefit as much as those with newer/better wheels.

    I think they could do a bit better in FFB for the G25/G27, but the T500RS for instance can run at a much higher hz rate, so it can accept/send data at a much more precise level, so in my opinion an improved physics engine will only truly be felt with the right hardware, much as your Guitar Hero vs. Rocksmith analogy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2014
  6. jimipitbull

    jimipitbull

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    Sounds plausible. I always thought Shift 2 felt a bit like Mario Kart.
     
  7. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    Good question @ChipChaserJ :tup::tup: Might be a good idea to add something like, "..and can you give us a peek at some of the things you are working on in this regard?".

    PD made some progress with the physics for GT6 but they still lag behind the best of PC sims and for better or worse, with the power of the PS4, that'll be the comparison in the future. There are literally dozens of elements that are missing from the physics model and from the tuning menus like tire pressure, tire temperatures across the tire, specific tires for each car comparable to their stock counterparts, brake disc temperatures affecting wheel and tire temperatures, brake fade...etc. etc. etc.

    Of course you're right about the wheel users benefiting the most, but good physics make for a better game overall IMO, even for controller users.
     
  8. stuff1138

    stuff1138

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    Just wanted to chime in because I know I will forget if I don't. People are always talking about car physics when there's also track physics to think about. As a real race goes on, the track rubbers in, temperatures change, etc. All of which change grip levels throughout the race.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2014
  9. gitslautriv

    gitslautriv

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    Simulations will never be 100% realistic, but these elements are getting closer and closer. If it's good enough for F1 drivers now (ok, some of it is down to testing restrictions).

    Physics need to be adapted, especially as arcade games such as Mario Kart are including slipstreaming.
     
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  10. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    Excellent point. Along with this, the more tracks we get laser scanned the better as well. One of the things I like about Bathurst is you get quite a bit of feedback from the wheel even on the straights sometimes, just from the small undulations in the surface. We need that sort of thing on all the real tracks in the game, and we need is simulated in the GT tracks as well. Butter smooth isn't that much fun most of the time.
     
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  11. FiftyBelowZero

    FiftyBelowZero

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    Why does the suffix "san" makes me laugh every time?
     
  12. CLowndes888

    CLowndes888 Premium

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    Gran Turismo is a great franchise, so I'm sure that they can do amazing things with the PS4. I was quite surprised when GT6 was announced, and it met (even surpassed) my expectations-don't discount PD anytime soon.
     
  13. Pheqit

    Pheqit

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    I love this question but not sure about the guitar side probably coz I never played them but I like the Mario bit. I like realism but I also like Mario even if I`ve never played it (it looks super fun and I know I`m missing out). I kinda have a feeling from playing that they got most bases covered but you know when you have that niggling doubt feeling......

    Seems to me add aids and its Mario gt, turn them off and we getting serious!

    Well must be 15yrs since I last played and probably gonna be another few years before I upgrade my Blu-ray player so will see then. Hope it still feels real but not too real that I can`t play without a joystick or whatever the hell we got in the future.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2014
  14. super_gt

    super_gt

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    I drive this car with DFGT,and I have no problem to drive on the edge.
     
  15. Tenacious D

    Tenacious D Premium

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    While this is true, tire sounds are very important to judge crucial grip levels. For me, more important than FFB, because as important as wheel feedback is, it does a poorer job of informing me how well the tires are performing around hard turns.

    I know the sim fans love their better physics, but GT and Forza both have seriously closed the gap on their superiority. For the first time in a racing game, I've enjoyed racing low powered compacts like the Fit in GT6. And I've experienced car kinetics in Forza 4 that I haven't seen in most PC sims outside of Live For Speed.

    I know Gran Turismo has room to improve in the physics department as it does all over, but the physics in GT6 are good, surprisingly good, so I have high hopes for Gran Turismo on PS4.

    By the way, super_gt's video is making me want to run to my racing ring... uhm... later. :D
     
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  16. VBR

    VBR Premium

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    The physics in GT7 will be more realistic than P Cars & Asseto Corsa combined. However, Skid Recovery Force will be forced on during all gameplay throughout the game rendering the uber-realistic physics model unrealistic.


    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Rich S

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    I thought force feedback on my G27 was better with GT5 than GT6. GT6 FF has been kind of plain, I dont know why but with my DFGT on GT5 I could feel a heck of a lot more even then I have with GT6. Also some cars on GT6 seem to get this weird back and forth dead-spot feel going down the straights.
     
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  18. super_gt

    super_gt

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    If GT7 physics is so good even SRF will not save you from crushing :lol:
     
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  19. ChipChaserJ

    ChipChaserJ

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    I would like to thank everyone for their comments. There have been many interesting and valid points brought up and I hope that Kaz does chime in because I think the answer to this question would be deeper than a simple yes/no.
     
  20. Zer0

    Zer0 (Banned)

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    On Gran Turismo's competitors

    Gran Turismo wasn't the first driving simulator, but it certainly helped popularise the genre. Today it's a bustling space, occupied on console by the likes of Forza and on PC in simulators like iRacing and rFactor. How does Yamauchi think these other titles compare? "It's hard to say, because in the simulator world, a lot of times we don't know what kind of new technologies are being used by competitors or other people. All I know is that as soon as you get in a car, you know - you can feel the difference, and that this is a little bit different from real life. That's the kind of thing I feel from other games."

    "What we do is exactly the same as a company like Red Bull does for their F1 cars," he says of his approach to defining Gran Turismo's handling, and how it differs from its competitors. "You place a tyre on a bench to measure its characteristics, and then get a variety of data on that test. We drive the real cars, and there's an immense amount of logging data that comes off those cars. On top of that we have a simulator, and it's all about how we balance that triangle between the three. All the top F1 teams try to do that - but it still results in a huge difference between teams. There are still so many factors that are unknown, that aren't really clear."


    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-11-29-kazunori-yamauchi-profile
     
  21. Johnnypenso

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    You are alien level in the skill department though. You could drive the Senna Lotus on the 'Ring on wooden tires without ABS and probably still be under 7:00:bowdown::lol:
     
  22. super_gt

    super_gt

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  23. ChipChaserJ

    ChipChaserJ

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    I really hope sound isn't the only thing Kaz is focused on improving with GT7.
     
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  24. SimTourist

    SimTourist

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    People are gonna say GT's physics are the best ever no matter what they do with them. I would recommend them work on how they handle transmissions to start with. 1ms gear shifting in all cars certainly isn't realistic. And I hope they iron out some paradoxes present in their current physics model like infinite momentum and seemingly not a single completely flat surface in the game.
     
  25. ChipChaserJ

    ChipChaserJ

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    I think you will be okay on the completely flat surface thing because I saw KAZ explaining in the documentary about him that laser scanning (which is the way a lot of the gran turismo tracks are made) will pick up all the cracks and imperfections of the road. Laser scanning is what project CARS is using to get three dimensional information about the track surface for the tracks they are making.
     
  26. Johnnypenso

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    I don't believe it's in GT's plans to compete with the likes of Project Cars or other true sims, toe to toe on physics. If they stick with using a single tire model that's fairly simplistic relative to racing sims, and using the chassis to modify grip parameters, it'll always just be a very rough approximation that will come close on some cars and be way off on others. A Ferrari Dino for example came with fairly skinny (by modern standards), low grip, bias ply tires in real life, that would not be competitive on a modern track against cars of similar weight and HP, and yet in GT it corners like a champ with huge amounts of grip because it has a 2014 tire and the chassis grip is altered only slightly due to it's age. Makes for a fun drive, and you can race it against cars of simliar PP and win almost every time, but it's not very realistic or "simlike".

    GT's forte at this point is huge selection and now developing tie ins with real life with projects like the VGT program, GT Academy, FIA etc. that look great on paper but really, so far at least, are just more content in the game and not offering any real substantive, lasting impacts on gameplay, physics, game design etc. PS4 could be a real turning point, but I'm not waiting around anymore to find out.
     
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  27. SimTourist

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    Forza has laserscanned tracks too.
     
  28. speedrcr

    speedrcr

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    It's pretty much a standard to laser scan tracks and terrain for most games.

    I think the problem here is a lot of you don't grasp some major concepts that go on behind the "smoke and mirrors".

    A)The current engine is pushing the current resources of this mini pc from 2005~(?) to the limit. It's quite great for what it was back then, but now deprecated. At that time I was playing GTR2 on the PC, now I play Assetto and GT6; which is miles ahead. Especially the rendering and the "mesh" of both track and cars. Easiest way to define this is look at the '99 Viper GTS and compare it to a later model. Now think of what hardware advances they have made since this thing came out. Since then I have upgraded my processor and video card 3 times and that was every few generation releases. PC graphics on both the production (engineering graphics like AutoCAD, 3DS Max, Inventor, etc) and gaming side of things have made immense leaps and bounds in technology since then alone.

    B) Now I've done some game modding and seen what the "mesh" looks like for these tracks (PC) and its not much of a different concept for GT judging from the behind the scenes videos (Nurburgring had almost a million vertices in GTR2, so imagine our track in GT6...and it's exceptionally smoother).

    C)What is laser scanning? How many of you actually know what it really does and what the product is from it. I'm willing to bet not more than 5% out there. Not saying you're dumb for not knowing, if you're not in the industry or in a related field of work or study, you don't have a true grasp (it's magic, j/k). Laser scanning gives you a point cloud (no nothing to do with the internet cloud, a bunch of points in space where the laser gave back positional data linked with GPS and survey data). See you can use a high resolution of these points which gives you life like details, but it requires a lot of horsepower to represent the physics and model rendering. So the tracks we have are more than likely at some point dumbed down for performance reasons.

    D)What a lot of people don't realize what was explained back in GT5 in a behind the scenes video, that they "incorporated" controller support...another fancy marketing way of saying they dumbed down the physics so a broad spectrum of their customer base could still play the game. This inherently "modified" realistic physics. Think about it, you can't drive a real car with a controller with smootheness and accuracy. Take for instance the RC car concept of driving. You can get close but not quite there. If you need further proof watch racing of both a controller and wheel and you will see the person with a controller pulling unrealistic turns at full wheel pitch. If you drive a car in real life you will know how true this is. It also helps if you played some actual legit racing Sims like iRacing, Assetto Corsa, rFactor, or GTR series. I saw this with a couple PC games where they initially had only wheel support and later added controller support.

    E)To address what some one said earlier about dynamic track physics, ACorsa has settings where you can start with a fresh track and progressively put down rubber with each lap or start with a nicely rubbered track. It makes for you wanting multiple laps on a 30 minute enduro at Nurburgring.

    I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea...I love the GT series and like any game they have either fallacies or they are ones interpretation of the real thing. With each release I can see how much closer we're getting, but keep in mind we are extremely limited with the PS3 hardware. I actually wish that GT6 was made for the PS4 and we were stuck with GT5 a bit longer with some cool DLC that made GT6 cool. Or a major update at least. But $$ talks and BS walks...hence we had to buy another game not quite done and limited by the hardware.

    Blame it on the battle of "realism vs marketting department". Now that's how the real world works.

    First one with the TLDR remark gets the "dolt" award for not being a little enlightened.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2014
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  29. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    You had me until the last sentence:tdown:
     
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  30. TRLWNC7396

    TRLWNC7396

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    I fully appreciate everything said. If someone didn't read to the last line, they are NOT a good gamer, and deserve the pitiful half-way setup the PS3 has forced on us.

    Well said.
     
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