Is it time to bin Sport Mode?

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by simsimsheree, Apr 3, 2018.

  1. Perhaps because you are reading the complaint threads forums rather than racing?

    Tell that to iRacing. Improving Sportsmanship Rating is easy:
    • Make the penalty system truly no-fault
    • Always apply the penalty to both cars in any contact
    • Make it progressively harder to maintain an A rating over a B, an S over an A, etc.
    [​IMG]

    GT Sport's SR system, for its faults, is still the cleanest "race any time" matchmaking multiplayer racing on console: bar none.
     
  2. I very much question the accuracy of the sampling method used to generate this statistic on KudosPrime.

    From a rational perspective it is very hard to believe that 3 of 4 purchasers do not click on a common UI element (that is also the title and point of the whole game) and do 1 online race.

    (the site doesn't scrape the data of all 4 million+ driver profiles, it takes a sample of 0.01% of all driver profiles in order to generate an educated guess at what the stats of the whole player base are.)

    If that sample isn't a simple random sample (see your Statistics 101 course) the data set could be garbage.

    If the sample IS a simple random sample, there are plenty of other ways for the data set to be crappy. If you are relying on driver profiles rather than discrete users, you will count players twice or more if they use alternate accounts for lobby racing and don't touch Sport Mode.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
    _ApexPredator likes this.
  3. JulesDennis

    JulesDennis

    Messages:
    1,245
    This is 100% true.
    I did disagree a few times with you (in these boards) but imo you are spot on.The only thing I want to add that if the rating system was impoved (from the beta) it would truly be something to talk about for years to come.
    PD had a good idea and the chance to create a special kind of competitive e-sport title but they did not do enough (from my point of view).
    Either way,GTS is the best "pick and play online" public racing title in both consoles.
     
    MikeTheHockeyFan likes this.
  4. 05XR8

    05XR8

    Messages:
    29,043
    Location:
    Australia
    I did a Gr.2 race there and wound up 1+ minutes down to the leader. In a 13 second lap, I was getting loose at corner exit. AI were tapping me on the left rear and causing me to spin into the wall. Liming to the pits for 3/4 lap, each time, want helping.
     
    darth_tails likes this.
  5. Outspacer

    Outspacer

    Messages:
    1,919
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    @jasguer 's site tells the same story, and he scans all of the profiles (takes 3+ days, IIRC!). In fact it's a worse figure: 78% have not even done one race, 92% have done less than 10.

    Only 43.6% have got the Master of Manners trophy, which still makes it 'rare'.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
    MikeTheHockeyFan likes this.
  6. simsimsheree

    simsimsheree

    Messages:
    786
    Let's try to bring this back on topic. For starters, it would really help if people posting would say whether a) they played GT6 at all, and b) did they spend much time in 'Clean or Kick' type open lobbies, let alone full sanctioned WRS or SNAIL events..?

    I hate to say it, but honestly, unless you did, I see little relevance in the answers.

    If you have had no experience in what a proper human stewarded room is like, you may not really understand what we lost. If you came from the flat out anarchy of open online, you may not have a frame of reference to judge how poorly Sport Mode is faring. But those were the ONLY rooms I used to race. If none was available (or they were full) I started one. It usually didn't take long to get a grid together, usually FAR shorter than the wait time for some of the Sport Mode races to come online.

    If you never had a driver that hit you out of the way return position to you without the game making him (actually, Sport Mode never makes an offender return the position, just do a time penalty, which may be too short for you to recover from the punt off track you got to overtake him) if you NEVER got a brake check from the car in front, if you never had race after race after race of close door to door racing utterly clean, you simply aren't able to judge this issue.

    I feel sad that so many GTS players never had this in GT6. It would certainly make you realize just how much this farce of Sport Mode has cost us. Balkanized servers has divided the community, and, to be honest, there really aren't that many of us that want clean racing to the point where we will penalize ourselves. Regionalizing the player base and the bamboozling of the player base into believing that Sport Mode will EVER have fair stewarding has left online lobbies a shadow of what they were in GT6.

    But reading the responses on this thread convince me few of you ever bothered with Clean or Kick rooms before. But, trust me, if you had, you would know what you have lost and realize that Sport Mode is a hollow, empty replacement that will NEVER equal it.
     
    Rinsky likes this.
  7. mthomas_95

    mthomas_95

    Messages:
    720
    Why does experience with GT6 matter when discussing the merits of having Sport Mode in GT Sport? I think the experience of anyone who's even done just 1 Sport Mode race is relevant to a discussion of it's inclusion, regardless of previous GT games they either did or didn't buy. I didn't touch GT6's online because I found the game as a whole massively underwhelming, does that disqualify me from a valid opinion on Sport Mode? :lol:

    People can have a different opinion and still remain on topic.
     
  8. Spurgy 777

    Spurgy 777

    Messages:
    5,617
    Location:
    England
    Sport mode is a lot better than trying to find a good clean/kick lobby, and if you did manage to find one the gap in skill level between everyone in the lobby was so large that the races were boring. I'd even go as far to say that FIA races are better than most organised series as well because not only are the races usually just as clean but thanks to the match making the skill levels are a lot closer. I specified the FIA races because the daily races aren't as close.

    To claim that clean/kick lobbies are a reasonable alternative to sport mode is complete nonsense as they don't even come close to offering as clean and close racing anywhere near as often as sport mode does.
     
    Alpha Cipher, MikeV27, Mr616 and 6 others like this.
  9. Crazy Taylor

    Crazy Taylor

    Messages:
    3,130
    Location:
    England
    I think i only had gt6 for 3 months as it was essentially one big dlc from gt5 (and i traded it in).
     
  10. BallPtPenTheif

    BallPtPenTheif

    Messages:
    1,230
    Location:
    United States
    I have to agree with Spurgy here. I'm glad that some people were able to find a good group of clean/kick drivers but as a solo driver these rooms where not easily accessible due to varying standards of clean racing. Some rooms would scold you for inside passing a known regular driver and claim that you dive bombed when you didn't. Conversely some rooms didn't even know what a dive bomb was. Other rooms would kick you for just not being a regular. Navigating clean rooms was a bit precarious and nonsensical. Even now it's a challenge to find the right online room and a Sport race usually comes online within that time anyways.

    Even if you were capable of navigating the clandestine world of Clean/Kick Races, none of that is a sustainable position for a game's online gaming environment. Relying on your player base to explain, pressure, or even bully people into learning what a Clean/Kick race is all about isn't any sort of design at all and would just diminish the user base.
     
    Venster and Mr616 like this.
  11. Crazy Taylor

    Crazy Taylor

    Messages:
    3,130
    Location:
    England
    Rather highbrow words suggesting that you can only race clean if you raced in clean lobbies. Absolute bollocks.
     
  12. _ApexPredator

    _ApexPredator

    Messages:
    528
    Totally agree.
    but not because of this :p

    I had many excellent races on GT6, but they were predominantly through racing in organised leagues or events, and as part of a team. It was a lot of work outside of the game, event rules & regs on forums, independent BoP testing (not to mention the scrutineering of both)), and as for the Clean/Kick lobbies I rarely found rooms that had favourable event settings - No Boost, Real Slipsream strength, Strong Penalties, No SRF, etc, etc, etc - and even if you did manage to find a good room often half of the grid couldn't see the other half.

    The problems with finding a good Clean/Kick lobby aside, you haven't even lost it :S You can still host/find one in GT Sport.
    So even if Sport mode were terrible, which I don't think it is, you can still host a lobby with the exact settings you'd like, and populate it with like-minded people and have exactly the sort of race that you describe :S
    But I don't think that lobby would be as competitive as it would in Sport Mode without a lot of extra work, which is why I totally agree with that first Spurgy quote :)
     
  13. Oswald07

    Oswald07

    Messages:
    174
    I had some really great Thursday night races in GT6 but it took the entire evening. And then it got so popular I could hardly get in. The rest of the lobbies were obsessed with drag racing and drifting. Or racing old cars...in the dark and the rain.

    I like sport mode the best cause you can jump in anytime and play as long or short as you want. I like working hard for my DR. And I like driving race cars, never wondering if I'm only losing because I have the wrong setup. And I do have many clean races since the last update got super strict. I feel that PD has done a great job of presenting racing to a continent sadly most familiar with nascar.
     
  14. simsimsheree

    simsimsheree

    Messages:
    786
    I'm not sure why you had those issues, Apex. Every day of the year, 24/7, I could find Clean or Kick rooms. NONE of them allowed SRF. ALL of them had slipstream as real. Aids were usually disabled except for ABS. Edge grip was always real. Hardly any of them had any penalties enabled at all, because we stewarded ourselves, and real cars don't ghost (and we weren't stupid enough to believe this GTS BS that a console game can steward adequately). BoP was either a PP range, or a one-make. TBH, BoP (as so many threads complain about) is little better in GTS than PP in GT6. There will always be a few top cars, and those highly competitive will pick those. And they were usually no tune.

    In fact, these rooms were often populated by SNAIL level drivers (by which, I mean aware of rules and expected behavior, not just Div1 aliens) and other people of that ilk. The main thing was, as a way to encourage clean driving and set an example for lower level drivers, these weren't elitist rooms. Anyone could enter, a good host would quickly explain the contact rules if they were unfamiliar, and everyone got one race to see if they could abide by the rules. Perhaps that's why you rarely raced them? No, it wasn't qualified and scheduled racing. That's kind of the POINT. Not all of us have the time or schedule for sanctioned League racing. But we wanted casual racing that followed the same rules.

    Rules were actually quite simple. ZERO contact with the car ahead was allowed IF it gained you position. If it did, you returned the position. You were expected to have a decent overlap before allowed apex rights. But we weren't stupid enough to think that contact would never happen. But only contact that gains you position was penalized. And not by some stupid time penalty. You returned position as soon as it was safe to the driver you hit, even if it meant waiting for him to rejoin the track and pass you. Those that repeatedly failed to follow the rules were kicked.

    So, how come you found it so hard to find something I raced almost every day for years? Or was it, you only wanted to race the fastest? The rooms were there, I can assure you.
     
  15. inri

    inri

    Messages:
    396
    I don't think it suits anybody to be racing people slower than they are
     
    Alpha Cipher and _ApexPredator like this.
  16. _ApexPredator

    _ApexPredator

    Messages:
    528
    I'm not saying the rooms weren't there.
    I'm saying that for me, the rooms I joined struggled to offer what I can just hop straight into in Sport mode.

    That's why outside of league racing, I mainly just did Shifter 125 races online, and like you say I didn't struggle to find clean & fair rooms - what I did struggle to find were rooms with more than a handful of competitors, something Sport mode offers me whenever I want.
     
    Nuschel01, BallPtPenTheif and Mr616 like this.
  17. simsimsheree

    simsimsheree

    Messages:
    786
    I guess then, it's swings and roundabouts. Yes, Sport Mode's matchmaking does raise the bar on overall room strength, but the price we pay for it is automated stewarding and all the host of issues that brings to the racing, mostly the huge step backwards in clean and respectful racing. If Sport Mode allows you to mug the car ahead with often less penalty than he gets, you can be sure, as there is no host to kick, that some WILL do it.

    I'm definitely in the camp of preferring cleanliness over a large well balanced grid. With a reverse grid from the previous race, I always enjoyed the challenge of CLEANLY picking my way through the pack, even if I didn't have 15 equally fast drivers to race! I always found podium-ing from the back more fun than leading from pole and being alone for most of the race (or just one or two as competition).
     
    Rinsky likes this.
  18. simsimsheree

    simsimsheree

    Messages:
    786
    Rather lowbrow words suggesting you completely misread the OP.

    The issue isn't whether you can race clean or not. The issue is, can you get a clean race? You can't in Sport Mode. You have ZERO control over who you race against, you cannot kick those that are dirty (within Sport Mode's laughable fault detection mode), there is no host to appeal to, no replay review (so the offender is banned in future), and the rules are 'Whatever you can get away with' and little more. The 'racing etiquette' videos you MUST watch to go online are not in the slightest bit enforced. There is no detection system for weaving and blocking or brake checking or any of the myriad things that would have got you tossed in a 'Clean or Kick' room.
     
  19. You’re trying to draw a comparison between race-on-demand matchmaking and the lobby system.

    It’s two different beasts. I don’t see the merit in comparing them when they are dealing with vastly different sets of inputs and user expectations.
     
    Alpha Cipher, Flytrap1190 and Mr616 like this.
  20. inri

    inri

    Messages:
    396
    i very very rarely have problems with the way other drivers act in sport mode races i'm in
     
    Alpha Cipher likes this.
  21. simsimsheree

    simsimsheree

    Messages:
    786
    It seems the 'user expectation' is still for clean and fair racing. Which we aren't getting in Sport Mode.

    All I am suggesting is, if it matters to you in the slightest, and can get over the fixation of racing for utterly imaginary SR/DR 'points', you can STILL get clean and fair racing if you can be bothered with stewarding yourself. And, that if you can't be bothered with stewarding yourself (and those around you) and you can't be bothered with hosting a 'Clean of Kick' room yourself, every now and again if one with room in it isn't available, simply give up the illusion that Sport Mode will EVER enable you to easily find clean rooms.

    In GT6, I had little problem (especially until the PS4 came out and some of the better drivers moved on to other games or GTS when first launched), 24/7 finding on demand clean and fair racing. To suggest it MUST be an either/or is to simply deny that GT6 had good clean racing at all times, if you were willing to abide the rules and help steward the whole room.

    I do not believe it is two different beasts. I believe it is a player base that, although the previous system that worked is still available, have bought into the fantasy that GT Sport will ever provide easy matchmaking AND clean racing. That they can't is utterly undeniable. Sport Mode is little better than anarchy compared to well hosted rooms in GT6. The only thing that has changed is that the player base has bought into the lie.

    Quick Race in GT6 was roughly the same as Sport Mode in GTS. No host, no kick options, rudimentary at best fault detection and penalties that were laughably incorrect. And were deservedly barren and devoid of many players. GT6 players KNEW they could race in lobby and find pretty much anything they wanted, from full league level clean casual racing to full on anarchy, take out the leader, cops and robbers, whatever you wanted.

    How is this abortion of a fake Sport Mode any better than that..? We have the tools, but no longer the will...
     
  22. Crazy Taylor

    Crazy Taylor

    Messages:
    3,130
    Location:
    England
    Didnt misread anything the op
    Is it time to bin Sport Mode?

    not at all. You would have to be a bit addled in the head to lose it. The reason you don't want it is because you can't hang with the rest of us. You are in a minority of 1 who wants it gone. It seem if you don't like something, lets get rid of it. Remember this you made about laggers. https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/lag-detection.376363/
     
    ceres2000 likes this.
  23. mthomas_95

    mthomas_95

    Messages:
    720
    Those options are still available in GT Sport so what's the big deal? It's not like they've removed lobbies and are forcing everyone kicking and screaming into Sport Mode whether they like it or not. If you don't like Sport Mode because you hate the penalty system so much then just don't play it, it's really not that hard a concept to grasp.

    If you feel Sport Mode is taking players away from such lobbies, then maybe Sport Mode isn't so bad after all?
     
    cleanLX, kalakanto, ceres2000 and 3 others like this.
  24. Flytrap1190

    Flytrap1190

    Messages:
    10
    Sport mode is not a failure, It is fun, most of the time its clean too. Feel free to go back to lobbies if you don’t like. The question of getting rid of it is straight up stupid. Also I’ve noticed the OP is very, very negative about Gran Turismo based on their previous posts...
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
  25. TamasToth

    TamasToth

    Messages:
    235
    I'm afraid, it is not the case. There are fair amount of users with this expectation, but on the other hand, there are lots of gamers playing with DS4 (every-assist-on) with the expectation of a quick _game_ and possibly a win at any cost. PD and GTS has to play its music for the biggest possible audience for business purposes, and it has to be accepted. And this is where it's getting hard: how to merge those expectations and intentions...
     
    Turbo Racer 48 likes this.
  26. inri

    inri

    Messages:
    396
    I see this sentiment a lot .. my opinion is that if people really think they're above those players, then actually rising above them to a point they can't reach like dr A and S should be trivial
     
    TamasToth likes this.
  27. TamasToth

    TamasToth

    Messages:
    235
    I understand your point and seems trivial. Maybe I'm not good and high ranked enough but just watching my replay on Willow daily, found 2 "interestingly" moving opponent, and it turned out that all assist was on by both of them. One of them was behaving spectacularly unfair. And this was a S/S - A/S race.
     
  28. Knukel

    Knukel

    Messages:
    480
    It was online lobbies that made GT5/6 great and kept me interested for years... The diversity of races each day, chatter, rivalry, ever growing list of familiar names from all around the world, nice tempo between races, only one room needed, dictatorship over the room meaning no penalties or DR/SR nonsense needed...

    In Sport mode there's no familiar names seen unless an alien, no time to chat before room dies, no rivalry or rematches & random racers remain random, being back to main menu after every race, only 3 different combos a day with predictable car/track choices altought the diversity is there but not in Sport mode.
    Sport mode has completely split the player base... There are many familiar names but they race behind matchmaking's regional lock & driver ratings... You just can't join them.
    GT Sport will most likely be my last Gran Turismo game IF they continue prioritizing Sport mode. :)
     
  29. NevilleNobody

    NevilleNobody

    Messages:
    905
    I love sport mode and like the penalty idea, i just CANNOT wrap my head around how they penalise you for being hit from behind. You get pushed off and wham, it's a 2 sec penalty.
     
  30. Nando deBem

    Nando deBem

    Messages:
    788
    Location:
    Canada
    I think the unfair penalties have more of a psychological effect on us than an actual effect in the race. If we keep calm and finish the race, it won’t matter, because everybody get those unfair penalties anyway. That said, I freaking give the TV the middle finger everytime I get an unfair penalty.
     
    Nuschel01 likes this.