Is SRF really that unrealistic?

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Sorry to butt in, as I'm no tuner, but I play one on tv (). To me one of the many problems with how suspensions and tires have been handled in this game is PD decided to get a tiny bit more "real" with some chassis on some cars while leaving others "old stupid simple", a slight change in how the aids affect the drivability, and the new tire model with changeable tire sizes for most cars. It's a LOT to combine in one game where most coming to the table "think" they already know how to play.

RW, you say you've been testing SRF in conjunction with camber adjustments. But isn't camber broken? Is the Rocket an exception? Are you going "whole hog" with assumptions like changing tire size does affect handling and should be accounted for in suspension settings? Again, sorry for intruding and asking a slightly different question, but I seriously dislike "borrowing" another's tune, and wish to learn exactly what PD's done here so I can work things out more for myself.

As to SRF itself, I've basically considered it a tool to be used when you don't wish to tune the car further or are stuck with that last little bit to getting a car to "hang" a bit better in the corners than your tuning ability is allowing. As a fan of the 'Ring, I suppose you can all figure out exactly which parts of the track are my favorite.

Lots of top driver at seasonal that allows SRF uses camber to exploit the way SRF works to their advantage. Eclipsse uses some rear camber on his tune + SRF on. He intentionally added camber, knowing that camber is broken ( more than zero reduces grip ). By reducing maximum available grip in a corner at the rear wheel, the car will slide too easily, this is good as SRF will kick in a lot sooner and for longer period of time during the corner = higher cornering speed. It's tricky to get it right, a driver/tuner needs to know when camber is too much and started to bite back, need to find the sweet spot that gives best result.

It worked on rear wheel drive cars, rocket was an example, not sure it works with FF and AWD cars. Have a look at seasonal threads here that allowed SRF, check the tunes posted, see if there's camber used

 

[Gwenbors]

I would probably be careful using the FT-1 as your sample on this one. I'm not sure why, but the handling mechanics on that car feel really really weird (as I'm sure many of you have noticed). Cornering under braking and under acceleration feel way different for it than in other FR cars, less gradual and more like there are sharp behavior changes connected to changes in the tire load. As a result it doesn't feel too smooth to me, but kind of jerky and with a tendency to crab (step out a bit sideways) at really odd times even in the middle of a single corner. I would guess that SRF makes a big difference for me (in the FT-1 at least) by seemingly smoothing out some of that oddness...

On another note, I'm not quite sure if we're more interested in SRF's "realness" (as per title) or SRF's quickness (as per OP). In terms of realness, though, more and more super high-end performance cars DO have SRF similar systems (many of the new Ferraris for example) to keep the car behavior under control even at the limits.

I'd also point out that in real performance driving drivers have a lot more input coming in from the car itself. While your eyes and ears are probably the most important bits, drivers often drive 'with their butts' to feel incoming g-data from the car itself (in drag racing we used to call it the "butt dyno"). The feel of the car's motion through corners can really tell a good driver quite a bit about just what the car is doing, and what the suspension is doing. All that sensory data, though, is missing from GT until somebody invents a hugely-expensive driving-seat motion-simulator (I'm not going to hold my breath). Maybe SRF could be thought of as compensating for the lack of touch data we get back from the cars?

Then again, maybe not...

 

[Roflwaffle]

The only time I ever used SRF in GT6 was on the tutorial with the Clio at Brands. I've never considered the OP's theory, but that's because its an odd theory. I've never had substantial problems with a cars handling that I had to use SRF, so I don't think they intend for you to use it, and if you want an "Extreme" challenge, to turn it off. I find turning it off to be more realistic, and have never thought about using SRF in GT6, because driving without it is perfectly fine.

 

[bluecharger]

I would probably be careful using the FT-1 as your sample on this one.

While I agree with your entire post, this to me is the most important statement. I have no idea why ANYone gets excited on any level about a supplied-car TT. I absolutely abhor having to "make time" with a POS I can't even set spring rates on! I took one lap with this brick with no aids to decide I couldn't stand the tire squeal and enabled ABS1. Two more laps to get gold and I was done. I could care less if someone manages a time 10 seconds faster, as in the end, they just now know how to beat a dead horse better than I.

To Ridox: Thanks for that and yes I do forget that just because it's "broken" doesn't mean it doesn't work. What would be nice is if PD would actually come out and say what part they got wrong here and when the fix is coming. The tires, the camber, or the whole stupid chassis system.

 

[croozer_63]

Although I drive with no aides on at all, I honestly believe that the majority of vehicles in the game handle more realistically with srf on. Too many times when I was re-learning to drive without aides on, the cars would spin out un realistically. I have had Lambos spin on corners at 40 ks , which I'm damn sure doesn't happen irl. Anyway, just my two bobs worth.

 

[Samus]

The only time I ever used SRF in GT6 was on the tutorial with the Clio at Brands. I've never considered the OP's theory, but that's because its an odd theory. I've never had substantial problems with a cars handling that I had to use SRF, so I don't think they intend for you to use it, and if you want an "Extreme" challenge, to turn it off. I find turning it off to be more realistic, and have never thought about using SRF in GT6, because driving without it is perfectly fine.

Have you not done the Goodwood events? SRF is forced on in those and it's definitely noticeable to me, the cars behave very strangely. Ruined those events for me.

 

[bluecharger]

Although I drive with no aides on at all, I honestly believe that the majority of vehicles in the game handle more realistically with srf on. Too many times when I was re-learning to drive without aides on, the cars would spin out un realistically. I have had Lambos spin on corners at 40 ks , which I'm damn sure doesn't happen irl. Anyway, just my two bobs worth.

I believe technically that's when you're supposed to revisit ride-height, camber, spring settings and so forth.

 

[Roflwaffle]

Have you not done the Goodwood events? SRF is forced on in those and it's definitely noticeable to me, the cars behave very strangely. Ruined those events for me.

Is it? Hmm, when I did those I was surprised by how easy they were, but I didn't think much of it because the rest of the game is pretty easy too.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Lots of top driver at seasonal that allows SRF uses camber to exploit the way SRF works to their advantage. Eclipsse uses some rear camber on his tune + SRF on. He intentionally added camber, knowing that camber is broken ( more than zero reduces grip ). By reducing maximum available grip in a corner at the rear wheel, the car will slide too easily, this is good as SRF will kick in a lot sooner and for longer period of time during the corner = higher cornering speed. It's tricky to get it right, a driver/tuner needs to know when camber is too much and started to bite back, need to find the sweet spot that gives best result.

It worked on rear wheel drive cars, rocket was an example, not sure it works with FF and AWD cars. Have a look at seasonal threads here that allowed SRF, check the tunes posted, see if there's camber used

Hey hey hey, you're giving away my secrets. Now stop.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Hey hey hey, you're giving away my secrets. Now stop.

I will say no more

 

[bluecharger]

I will say no more

but technically you could do the same thing by increasing rear spring strength or using a lesser tire, correct? And then fine-tuning with a touch of caster? Across the board (accelerating, stopping, rotating, cornering), given what PD got right and wrong, is there any difference in which method you use?

 

[ACRuser1]

Oops, I clicked yes. I didnt read the second part of the question....

SRF the answer is in the name of the aid.

Is "The Force" from Star Wars realistic? No!

 

[Imari]

In terms of realness, though, more and more super high-end performance cars DO have SRF similar systems (many of the new Ferraris for example) to keep the car behavior under control even at the limits.

No, they don't.

There is nothing a computer can do to add grip to a skidding tyre the way SRF does. The computer can modulate power delivery, diffs, brakes, suspension and a whole lot of other things to stop the driver losing control completely. But it does not do it by adding grip, it does it by removing the driver's ability to exceed the grip that is available.

 

[Samus]

Exactly. SRF does not work in any way like traction control or any other stabilty system in real cars. It bends the laws of physics.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

but technically you could do the same thing by increasing rear spring strength or using a lesser tire, correct? And then fine-tuning with a touch of caster? Across the board (accelerating, stopping, rotating, cornering), given what PD got right and wrong, is there any difference in which method you use?

Ideally the way to do it is to tune with maximum possible potential of grip and cornering speed, optimum toe, spring rate, damper, ARB, etc as they are not broken This ensure the best handling and traction available when the grip limit is not broken. Then you would increase the likelihood of grip loss by adding camber, this will ensure maximum performance at all times, as SRF added grip do not normally kick in when in straight or braking into a corner, mostly mid to exit I can't say anymore

 

[bluecharger]

Ideally the way to do it is to tune with maximum possible potential of grip and cornering speed, optimum toe, spring rate, damper, ARB, etc as they are not broken This ensure the best handling and traction available when the grip limit is not broken. Then you would increase the likelihood of grip loss by adding camber, this will ensure maximum performance at all times, as SRF added grip do not normally kick in when in straight or braking into a corner, mostly mid to exit I can't say anymore

I really want a virtual 7-post in this game. I'm still waiting to see PD "ninja update" this issue and see all the howls coming from super-tuners when they start flying off the track!

 

[Vegard]

Have you not done the Goodwood events? SRF is forced on in those and it's definitely noticeable to me, the cars behave very strangely. Ruined those events for me.

Not to mention the license tests and driving missions.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I really want a virtual 7-post in this game. I'm still waiting to see PD "ninja update" this issue and see all the howls coming from super-tuners when they start flying off the track!

Why would they fly off the track?

 

[bluecharger]

Why would they fly off the track?

Well say they fixed camber in 1.06 but didn't mention it (that's a "ninja update", no?)....the result is you have a vehicle tuned at 0/0 (if you just zeroed it all out and left it alone waiting for the fix) but otherwise tuned for your driving style. After ninja update, you take out a car you expect to do say 55mph in a particular corner, but with true 0/0 camber is only capable of doing 45. See? I know, stupid, but the thought makes me giggle. It gets funnier with more speed.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Well say they fixed camber in 1.06 but didn't mention it (that's a "ninja update", no?)....the result is you have a vehicle tuned at 0/0 (if you just zeroed it all out and left it alone waiting for the fix) but otherwise tuned for your driving style. After ninja update, you take out a car you expect to do say 55mph in a particular corner, but with true 0/0 camber is only capable of doing 45. See? I know, stupid, but the thought makes me giggle. It gets funnier with more speed.

Gotcha. I realize it's a different situation but one look at a PCars Weekly Build Recap really puts PD and their cryptic or missing update descriptions to shame. I bet most GT players don't even know what a proper update description looks like:

http://www.virtualr.net/project-cars-weekly-build-recap-16

 

[Samus]

...and they manage that weekly. This is all PD can muster every few months, for the small patches:

The following change has been implemented:

- The content of the Dealership has been updated.

The following issue has been addressed:

- The vehicle dynamics for some four wheel drive cars has been corrected.

Gee thanks PD, that explains it perfectly. Then of course the main changelogs are missing a bunch of changes, every single time.

 

[Troggy]

My brain hurts. SRF is not realistic in any fashion. Like at all.

 

[et_]

You guys still dont get it, the game says "skid recovery force - increases grip to the tyres when the car starts to skid". thats totally unrealistic, and you asume thats how it works just because it says so. what if it does'nt?
Question everything, don't believe what you read. I didn't think you guys would think this was correct, but I thought you'd at least understand where I'm going with this...

@Ridox2JZGTE : What if the the increased grip from added camber is'nt coming from SRF like you described, but actually comes from the added camber and you get more rubber in contact with the ground? so why then is'nt camber worknig without SRF? because you have switched on a magic button that reduces grip.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

You guys still dont get it, the game says "skid recovery force - increases grip to the tyres when the car starts to skid". thats totally unrealistic, and you asume thats how it works just because it says so. what if it does'nt?
Question everything, don't believe what you read. I didn't think you guys would think this was correct, but I thought you'd at least understand where I'm going with this...

@Ridox2JZGTE : What if the the increased grip from added camber is'nt coming from SRF like you described, but actually comes from the added camber and you get more rubber in contact with the ground? so why then is'nt camber worknig without SRF? because you have switched on a magic button that reduces grip.

No, camber do not work not because of SRF is off. With SRF on, try run 2.0 to 3.0 camber front and back, you will have less grip overall, and SRF will more often kick in giving stability to some extent, you can abuse it, and when you pushed too hard, it will snap Compared that to 0 camber front and back with SRF on. If you want easier test, drive on raining track at 40% water on track or more, fit sports tire ( less grippy than comfort in the rain ), use SRF with camber and zero camber, you should notice the difference.

 

[et_]

No, camber do not work not because of SRF is off. With SRF on, try run 2.0 to 3.0 camber front and back, you will have less grip overall, and SRF will more often kick in giving stability to some extent, you can abuse it, and when you pushed too hard, it will snap Compared that to 0 camber front and back with SRF on. If you want easier test, drive on raining track at 40% water on track or more, fit sports tire ( less grippy than comfort in the rain ), use SRF with camber and zero camber, you should notice the difference.

yeah, then you have added too much camber, of corse the grip level will be lower, you get reduced rubber contact with the road, a standard car on comfort tyres will most certainly go slower if you add camber more than maybe 1 degree, that is true in real life too...

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

yeah, then you have added too much camber, of corse the grip level will be lower, you get reduced rubber contact with the road, a standard car on comfort tyres will most certainly go slower if you add camber more than maybe 1 degree, that is true in real life too...

You have no idea about camber Even stock 86GT factory alignment has over 1 degree camber at the rear and from 1.5 to over 2 degree front. You should read camber thread, it's well known that any value above zero camber, grip is reduced, regardless of tire, tune, car or SRF or what not.

 

[bluecharger]

You guys still dont get it, the game says "skid recovery force - increases grip to the tyres when the car starts to skid". thats totally unrealistic, and you asume thats how it works just because it says so. what if it does'nt?
Question everything, don't believe what you read. I didn't think you guys would think this was correct, but I thought you'd at least understand where I'm going with this...

Honestly, et, I didn't vote because I've never known exactly WHAT PD intended with this aid. I basically lost a very good life-long friend because of how he ended an argument about SRF just before getting GT6. His take was like a lot on here in that it's wholly unnatural and supposes pie-in-the-sky grip just magically keeps you in place beyond cornering speeds your car is otherwise tuned for. My take is the cars certainly feel more controllable and I crash less when I use it; so why not just use it if it helps like any other "fake" adjustment in this game? Every adjustment made to the car has some empirical value attached, I've just never seen a breakdown of what SRF brings. Maybe it increases tire grip a peg or two and adds value to aero adjustments, even if that particular car has no front aero. But for whatever reason, no matter how much I like or dislike tuning cars, I "know" what SRF will allow, and what ever else I want has to be tuned in. To me it's no different from TC. I can sometimes tune it to match the effect, but that takes more time, and may hamper me beyond what the electronic aids do. I get away with a lot of stuff with my DS3 with downshifting and late "slam-steering" into corners, and a lot of the time, SRF is factored into that. But no, I don't REALLY think it's truly realistic, in that it goes beyond other "realistic" aids supplied in the cars. Hopefully that made sense?

 

[Johnnypenso]

But no, I don't REALLY think it's truly realistic, in that it goes beyond other "realistic" aids supplied in the cars. Hopefully that made sense?

One should play the game however they see fit, that should be a given. I don't want you to go without SRF if you like it and enjoy racing with it. I think the crux of the discussion is that some of us want realism and as immersive an experience as possible, and SRF really breaks that realism for many of us. If I get too out of shape in a corner I want to pay the price for it, not have an invisible hand swoop down and keep me on the track and pointed in the right direction. We want a "sim" experience and SRF is not "sim" at all.

 

[bluecharger]

One should play the game however they see fit, that should be a given. I don't want you to go without SRF if you like it and enjoy racing with it. I think the crux of the discussion is that some of us want realism and as immersive an experience as possible, and SRF really breaks that realism for many of us. If I get too out of shape in a corner I want to pay the price for it, not have an invisible hand swoop down and keep me on the track and pointed in the right direction. We want a "sim" experience and SRF is not "sim" at all.

That's pretty black-and-white though over an aid that LIVES in the gray. if it simply boosts a few tuning items you don't dig out for yourself, is that "unrealistic"? or just easy? Here's (I think) the magical question: Does it do anything you can't do by tuning the car? This assumes some value of TC and ABS enabled, as you want the input of the aid when there's a traction issue, not on all the time. I'm not a good or dedicated enough tuner to answer this.

 

[et_]

You have no idea about camber Even stock 86GT factory alignment has over 1 degree camber at the rear and from 1.5 to over 2 degree front. You should read camber thread, it's well known that any value above zero camber, grip is reduced, regardless of tire, tune, car or SRF or what not.

Not to start an argument, but what is to say 0 in-game is 0 irl?