Is SRF really that unrealistic?

[Streeto]

SRF is merely an arcade assist for people who don't want to learn how to handle their car properly.

 

[Vegard]

It has a dial on the steering wheel, with 4 options (I think)

Manettino:

It has a winter setting

 

[Johnnypenso]

Manettino:

It has a winter setting

That's gotta be a regulatory mandate..who in their right mind would drive that car in the snow

 

[Zenmervolt]

That's gotta be a regulatory mandate..who in their right mind would drive that car in the snow

This is what came to mind first:


But then I found this:

 

[et_]

What SRF does would be closer to staring with the green line until you exceed the slip limit and then it pushes the green line up (to say the blue line)to raise the tyre grip for the slip angle you are at. As such you can maintain speed or even gain speed at times when grip (and as a result speed) drop.

I dont think so, because then you would feel when it cuts in.

Now aside from the fact that the labeling on the graph axis are potentially misleading (skid angle should be slip angle and slip generates without you going sideways until the slip limit is reached), what having SFR switched on is not teh blue line alone.

Your point that "no one knows exactly how that line would be drawn" is also totally untrue, tyre data of this sort is most certainly available and plenty of titles use it, GT is one of the few that has (prior to GT6) chosen not to work with tyre manufacturers and getting the tyres to work well in sims is not as simple as just plugging the data in an away you go (particularly at low speeds).

Revised a bit, It says slip angle now. And all manufacturers comes ut with different lines, so it's not completely known how it works.

 

[cjr3559]

I don't see why you would expect a car on 0 abs to have abs, just because it does in real life?

I've never driven a car IRL with ABS and actually managed to lock up the brakes, so I don't know if it's possible or even been tested and proven by experienced test drivers.

Just a general question, but did F1 cars ever have ABS? I can recall many instances where drivers locked up their brakes. F1 cars seem to be the epitome of modern technology and thought maybe it *was* possible to lock 'Anti-lock brake systems' when pushed to their limits.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I've never driven a car IRL with ABS and actually managed to lock up the brakes, so I don't know if it's possible or even been tested and proven by experienced test drivers.

Just a general question, but did F1 cars ever have ABS? I can recall many instances where drivers locked up their brakes. F1 cars seem to be the epitome of modern technology and thought maybe it *was* possible to lock 'Anti-lock brake systems' when pushed to their limits.

ABS was around for a couple of years in the early 90's and banned in 94' I think.

 

[Scaff]

I dont think so, because then you would feel when it cuts in.

You can, as numerous members in this thread have repeatedly described.

When you run out of grip it gives you more.

Revised a bit, It says slip angle now. And all manufacturers comes ut with different lines, so it's not completely known how it works.

Of course manufacturers have differing lines, for every tyre they make and for differing surfaces as well, that doesn't mean its not know how it works or that they are not mapped. It certainly doesn't mean that its has to be made up or guessed at for sims and the fact remains that prior to GT6 PD were one of the few serious sim developers still doing so.

Take FM4 which saw T10 work not only with Pirelli data, but also work with them to generate new data and incorporate it, so its totally untrue to suggest that the data doesn't exist (it certainly does - I've worked with it myself in the past), but also has been incorporated in a range of sims.



You seem to be under some bizarre impression that because PD have been well behind the curve in this area before, that this must be the same for everyone else.

 

[mr_lab_rat]

Hey et, I might have an explanation for you.
I think you might feel the SRF ON is closer to real life because you just don't push the car as much IRL (even if you track your M3).

 

[FussyFez]

I've never driven a car IRL with ABS and actually managed to lock up the brakes, so I don't know if it's possible or even been tested and proven by experienced test drivers.

Just a general question, but did F1 cars ever have ABS? I can recall many instances where drivers locked up their brakes. F1 cars seem to be the epitome of modern technology and thought maybe it *was* possible to lock 'Anti-lock brake systems' when pushed to their limits.

My car has abs, and I'll have it heavily engaged (my wheels are locking, but being stopped by the abs, they will still lock momentarily, especially if hitting a wet man hole cover or drain etc) regularly in the wet under heavy braking.

I do have big front discs with uprated track day pads though, and a heavy right foot, so that might make a difference. But my point is, it's possible, with honda ' s abs system on my civic anyway.

 

[et_]

Hey et, I might have an explanation for you.
I think you might feel the SRF ON is closer to real life because you just don't push the car as much IRL (even if you track your M3).

Yes, I'm aware of that, and is definitely part of the answer.

 

[Zolon32]

I think we can agree anyway, can't we, that any assists whatsoever, ABS included, are for sissies...................

 

[et_]

I think we can agree anyway, can't we, that any assists whatsoever, ABS included, are for sissies...................

Sure, but they make me faster so I'll keep using them (SRF, ABS 1, and sometimes AS.)

 

[Zolon32]

Well, that's a bit of a philosophical issue you raised there et. Do they make you faster? I don't think they do. The machine is the 'faster' element to which you refer. If anything you will be slower, and remain so whilst relying on assists.

If there was a button which was labelled 'Give me everything I need to beat the fastest time so far set' and you were to use it, would that mean you were faster than everyone else? No.

I was being provocative, of course, there are people who don't feel that they can compete without assists but, whilst I know that I could never challenge the fastest guys around, I would rather drive 'naked' to the best of my limited talent than rely on the machine helping me out. (Disclaimer, when BB is set, cannot be adjusted and it's impossible to brake without spinning I do use ABS. Shame on me.) However, I do accept that this is an entirely personal choice and good luck to those who go quicker than me with assists. Sissies.

Cheers, Zo.

 

[et_]

Well, that's a bit of a philosophical issue you raised there et. Do they make you faster? I don't think they do. The machine is the 'faster' element to which you refer. If anything you will be slower, and remain so whilst relying on assists.

If there was a button which was labelled 'Give me everything I need to beat the fastest time so far set' and you were to use it, would that mean you were faster than everyone else? No.

I was being provocative, of course, there are people who don't feel that they can compete without assists but, whilst I know that I could never challenge the fastest guys around, I would rather drive 'naked' to the best of my limited talent than rely on the machine helping me out. (Disclaimer, when BB is set, cannot be adjusted and it's impossible to brake without spinning I do use ABS. Shame on me.) However, I do accept that this is an entirely personal choice and good luck to those who go quicker than me with assists. Sissies.

Cheers, Zo.

I'm pretty sure I'd be just as competitive without aids, but if everyone else is using aids, and I dont, I'd be WAY behind.

 

[Chris___75]

If using any aids at all is going to give me better times then im going to use them. I dont care what name calling you do....

 

[Zolon32]

If using any aids at all is going to give me better times then im going to use them. I dont care what name calling you do....

You're just trying to provoke me into a response............................ Dammitt! Forget that, I never said anything.

 

[Z1-AV69]

Look at it this way, you can make a chart of how tyre slip affects the grip, and the line would look roughly like the ones below, even IRL. Its just a matter of figuring out how the line should be drawn to reflect reality, and no one knows exactly how that line would be drawn. If they knew that, every single racing simulator would be using it and they would all feel the same. But the fact is, we dont know exactly, so all we (and PD) can do is estimate. Anyway, this is somewhat how I experience it in game:

Now, who says the green line is the most realistic one, maybe its the blue one?

(Also updated OP)

To decide which grip level is more realistic you can compare real & game laptimes. That way you'll find even without SRF there is too much grip.

But I still think you could have a point. I remembered that lengthy thread about the InsideSimRacing comparison between GT6 and Forza 5 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...rsport-5-test-drive-srt-2013-bathurst.303562/, for the test they had to put sport soft tyres on in GT6, probably because even those testers, which should have some experience and skill in sim racing, apparently had troubles doing proper laps with a supercar on sports hards. Now after all those years of playing GT I enjoy supercars on their stock tyres a lot. But most beginners seem to be struggling very much with that. I somehow doubt doing a clean lap in -lets say- a Ferrari 458 in real life is remotely as difficult as it is in GT. That doesn't seem quite right to me.

 

[mistersafeway]

It would be, if you turned off all assists and drove on the limit. Harder, most likely. Try the 458 with ASM and possibly TCS on 1/2. That should be more like the real thing, or at least the way most people would run it.

Supercars without any assists on are crashed all the time... there are pictures all over the Internet, if you're unfamiliar with the phenomenon.

 

[RacingManiac]

It would be, if you turned off all assists and drove on the limit. Harder, most likely. Try the 458 with ASM and possibly TCS on 1/2. That should be more like the real thing, or at least the way most people would run it.

Supercars without any assists on are crashed all the time... there are pictures all over the Internet, if you're unfamiliar with the phenomenon.

This...considering 99% of the supercars don't go anywhere near their limit in most of their lives, most people took it there probably did it by accident and came out worse for it...

 

[Z1-AV69]

It would be, if you turned off all assists and drove on the limit. Harder, most likely. Try the 458 with ASM and possibly TCS on 1/2. That should be more like the real thing, or at least the way most people would run it.

Supercars without any assists on are crashed all the time... there are pictures all over the Internet, if you're unfamiliar with the phenomenon.

I have to admit I have no idea how ASM feels in game. But then I'm spoiled anyway. There are lots of people doing stupid crashes in VW Golf too, that doesn't tell much.

A few months ago I had a few real life friends here and they wanted to see GT. One of them even had played GT5 for some time and I know he knows how to handle real cars. So I bought an Audi RS6 and send them to Nordschleife, telling them they should just try to bring it round, no matter what speed. The RS6 does solid understeer and not much else. I didn't drive that model in real life, but from my experience that's how A6 s-line quattros handle in real life too, very easy to drive. No doubt my friend could drive it savely round real Nordschleife. But none of them could in game.

I wont prove anything here. But I think some aspect of "simulation" might be off if it is hard for people who can drive real cars just fine.

 

[PepeMickey]

GT is a simcade anyway, I don't use SRF but I don't have a problem with someone else using it, I mean the game is tailored for casuals and it basically promotes the use of SRF so it all comes down to preference.

 

[FussyFez]

I have to admit I have no idea how ASM feels in game. But then I'm spoiled anyway. There are lots of people doing stupid crashes in VW Golf too, that doesn't tell much.

A few months ago I had a few real life friends here and they wanted to see GT. One of them even had played GT5 for some time and I know he knows how to handle real cars. So I bought an Audi RS6 and send them to Nordschleife, telling them they should just try to bring it round, no matter what speed. The RS6 does solid understeer and not much else. I didn't drive that model in real life, but from my experience that's how A6 s-line quattros handle in real life too, very easy to drive. No doubt my friend could drive it savely round real Nordschleife. But none of them could in game.

I wont prove anything here. But I think some aspect of "simulation" might be off if it is hard for people who can drive real cars just fine.

I think there is an adjustment period.


I can't say my DFGT on gt6 feels exactly like real life, but my in game replica of my real car behaves exactly as my real version does. The feel through the wheel is different, but inputs and reactions to those inputs are very very close to what I get in real life.

People don't realise they are trying to turn into a hairpin at 130mph, because they didn't brake early enough, or even at all. They also can't sense the early stages of under or oversteer like they can in real life. No 'seat of the pants' sensations. After some time, it's possible to sense these early skid indications, or even predict the skid before it happens.

When I was a new driver, I was very naughty, and it didn't take me long to learn what understeer and oversteer felt like, now, after nearly 7 years of driving excessively enthusiastically, I know that I'm too hot into this roundabout, and I'm expecting understeer and doing what I can to stop it from understeering, a good few seconds before it actually materialises.

Many people that can drive perfectly well on the public roads, will never get a car out of shape, let alone intentionally feinting into flugplatz to get some rotation in an understeery car.

There is a huge gulf in skills when it comes to driving from A-B and then doing it as fast as possible.

I suppose my point is, that given time to adjust to the 'feel' of GT through a FFB wheel, after sampling many drive layouts, tyre compounds, tracks and dynamic car control situations, an individual can connect the virtual experience to reality and vice versa.

 

[mr_lab_rat]

But most beginners seem to be struggling very much with that. I somehow doubt doing a clean lap in -lets say- a Ferrari 458 in real life is remotely as difficult as it is in GT. That doesn't seem quite right to me.

I think it's the seat of the pants feedback that makes the real life easier. But I would still disagree with you.
If you make the penalty for going off the track the same in real life and the game the lap times would be similar.

Give me a supercar and I know I have to pay for repairs if I trash it.
Give me the same car in GT and make a deal I would also have to pay thousands if I crash.

When trying to replicate my real life car in GT6 I go for SH or SM tires and no SRF. The car is 1500kg BMW with 400hp and LSD. It feels closer to real life than comfort tires and SRF on.

 

[et_]

To decide which grip level is more realistic you can compare real & game laptimes. That way you'll find even without SRF there is too much grip.

But I still think you could have a point. I remembered that lengthy thread about the InsideSimRacing comparison between GT6 and Forza 5 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...rsport-5-test-drive-srt-2013-bathurst.303562/, for the test they had to put sport soft tyres on in GT6, probably because even those testers, which should have some experience and skill in sim racing, apparently had troubles doing proper laps with a supercar on sports hards. Now after all those years of playing GT I enjoy supercars on their stock tyres a lot. But most beginners seem to be struggling very much with that. I somehow doubt doing a clean lap in -lets say- a Ferrari 458 in real life is remotely as difficult as it is in GT. That doesn't seem quite right to me.

Driving IRL is more difficult than in GT6 in my opinion, but then again, I have done A LOT more track time in GT6...

I think it's the seat of the pants feedback that makes the real life easier. But I would still disagree with you.
If you make the penalty for going off the track the same in real life and the game the lap times would be similar.

Give me a supercar and I know I have to pay for repairs if I trash it.
Give me the same car in GT and make a deal I would also have to pay thousands if I crash.

When trying to replicate my real life car in GT6 I go for SH or SM tires and no SRF. The car is 1500kg BMW with 400hp and LSD. It feels closer to real life than comfort tires and SRF on.

Yeah, maybe the issue is PD put wrong tires on in GT...

 

[bluecharger]

Yeah, maybe the issue is PD put wrong tires on in GT...

I almost want to say the tires are least of PD's mistakes with this game......but I'm trying REAL hard to be nice today.....

real hard

Actually I'd like to see someone hold forth intelligently on whether PD has modelled into the game at all the handling differences inherent when changing sidewall height. If, as has been alleged here, the tire itself didn't change size, only the wheel, there's still the question of lateral grip to be simulated properly. Don't know what use the info would be though if the camber is still screwy.

I have a headache now

 

[FussyFez]

I think it's the seat of the pants feedback that makes the real life easier. But I would still disagree with you.
If you make the penalty for going off the track the same in real life and the game the lap times would be similar.

Give me a supercar and I know I have to pay for repairs if I trash it.
Give me the same car in GT and make a deal I would also have to pay thousands if I crash.

When trying to replicate my real life car in GT6 I go for SH or SM tires and no SRF. The car is 1500kg BMW with 400hp and LSD. It feels closer to real life than comfort tires and SRF on.

My replica is best on CM or CS for replicating my Michelin pilot sport 3's. CS for outright best grip, and CM for a slightly worn, maybe slightly overheating feel. But I'm at 170bhp@1250kg with a 52:48 weight distribution in a FF with an LSD.

If you drive it without thinking, you will understeer, like my real life car. But if you actively control the cars weight transfer and rotation, it will oversteer on command. Just like my real life car.

I can also generate a surprising amount of turning grip on the CM when I'm really in the zone.

 

[mr_lab_rat]

My replica is best on CM or CS for replicating my Michelin pilot sport 3's. CS for outright best grip, and CM for a slightly worn, maybe slightly overheating feel. But I'm at 170bhp@1250kg with a 52:48 weight distribution in a FF with an LSD.

But is that with or without SRF?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I've built many replicas, some of my Best Motoring cars replica can be very close in lap time, I compared cornering speed, gear change and lines taken from onboard video to my replay, they are very close, I also made the replica in as close as possible in terms of power, weight, gear ratio, suspension and LSD. Some of the quickest tuned car from Best Motoring usually uses comfort soft for normal tires in Best Motoring lap, while when the tuned car IRL Best Motoring uses S tires, the equivalent is sports medium in GT6. I never need to use sports soft, which I consider close to racing hard slick IRL. GT6 stock car tire that came as default usually need to go down 1 level or 2 to get closer to real life road tire.

All of course SRF OFF, no aids ( no brake assist ).

 

[Vegard]

Sidewalls

I think the consensus is that there's no tyre deformation in GT6.
I have felt nothing to suggest otherwise.