Is the badge worth the price of admission?

[Gil]

Lexus IS350-well equipped $37,000
Infiniti G35-Well equipped (no Nav System) $36,000
BMW 335i-Similarly equipped--$46,000

Infiniti M35 - Well equipped (no Nav)-$51,000
BMW 535i - equipped essentially the same $60,900

So, Here's the thing, Now that Japan has pretty much caught up in quality with the German manufacturers, is it really worth 10 grand to own a German high end sedan?

 

[benzoboy]

Absolutely not. Modern German cars aren't even that great compared to others.

Also, individuality is nice.

 

[Joey D]

There really is nothing like driving a BMW in my opinion so I would find it worth it. I like many Lexus and Infiniti products but ultimately if I had the money I would go for the BMW every time. Also, what is the resale value on the cars? Around here BMW's hold their value quite well while Lexus and Infiniti do not.

 

[Prosthetic]

There really is nothing like driving a BMW in my opinion so I would find it worth it. I like many Lexus and Infiniti products but ultimately if I had the money I would go for the BMW every time. Also, what is the resale value on the cars? Around here BMW's hold their value quite well while Lexus and Infiniti do not.

o.O

BMW and Mercedes prices drop like bricks here... Maybe because everyone and their mother buys one...

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Er, 3 year old Jag FTW?

They drop like rocks because they still haven't shaken the unreliability issues of my generation and earlier cars but they no longer have that issue and are from what I've read extremely nice in almost all aspects...

So you get badge, luxury, and performance of an 80k car for more like 40-50.

 

[Tornado]

To be fair, the BMW has a much more powerful engine.

 

[1X83Z]

Lexus IS350-well equipped $37,000
Infiniti G35-Well equipped (no Nav System) $36,000
BMW 335i-Similarly equipped--$46,000

Infiniti M35 - Well equipped (no Nav)-$51,000
BMW 535i - equipped essentially the same $60,900

So, Here's the thing, Now that Japan has pretty much caught up in quality with the German manufacturers, is it really worth 10 grand to own a German high end sedan?

The question you need to ask, Gil, is - is it worth the POA to own a luxury car at all? You can get a Camry similarly equipped to the IS350 and G35 (and now the Camry does 0-60 in 5.9sec, with nearly 270hp!) for probably $6k less than THOSE vehicles, which are bargains relative to the BMW. And of course the BMW is a bargain relative to a GranTurismo which is probably slower.

It's all relative.

 

[McLaren]

It's more than the car itself, in my experience. If I paid $51,000 for the Infiniti, I have to put with dealers who make you wait & wait & wait & wait. Same with Park Place (who is getting somewhat away from this finally). For $60,000 with the BMW, I get a better dealer experience & the free maintenance warranty.

Is that worth the extra $10K for me? No, but I do feel good that after spending $50K on a car, I'm treated like crap at the dealership.

But I agree with Doug. It's all relative.

 

[YSSMAN]

To answer the question, its a "yes and no" situation. I'm a pretty firm believer in what the Germans have to offer as a superior product in most circumstances, but there are pretty clear instances in which that $10-15K can go a long way to make a car that is 8/10ths or 9/10ths the better option. If I had the money for a $40K sedan and I'm shopping for BMW-like cars, I'm more likely to buy the BMW because its what I wanted to begin with. That being said, if Cadillac is going to give me 9/10ths the car with more stuff to begin with, I would be sympathetic to their cause.

But, like Doug said, there are some pesky cars in the "regular" range of models that are getting up there in performance and quality, and they'd likely make me think otherwise. My thoughts of the VW Passat come to mind, same with the Pontiac G8, and even to some extent the Ford Taurus (laugh while you can...). The problem there is that you have to wrap your head around the idea of a $40K Volkswagen or Ford, but if you're getting that much more, it may be worthwhile.

 

[JCE]

The questiion you ask is a very good one. For my money and my bias aside I'd find it hard to resist getting more for my money in the Lexus or Infiniti. If it were these two Japanese versus only BMW the Japanese would probably win hands down for me personally. If Audi or Merc were in the picture my "precieved" quality expectation of the other Germans would probably mean me buy them instead. To me the Audi and Merc have a higher "feel" in terms of class. But this could just be my bias slipping through. The actual tangible luxury equasion for the Japanese has been steadily increasing. Infact Infiniti has done a very good job on the M. I would take an M35/M45 over a 5-series, A6, and E-class. And 80% of that is because the price point and aethetics please me more.

 

[neanderthal]

I think you will find that for most people, the Japanese cars will do the job just fine. Most people are not enthusiasts.

But for the discerning driver, the one who is going to push the car and approach 10/ 10ths, then youll find that the german cars can have an edge. But not always.
There are some that are more involving and some that are more aloof, regardless of which manufacturer you choose. Sometimes its the sports package. Sometimes its the optional tires. Sometimes its just a magical combination of things and you cant nail down which ingredient makes the magic.

 

[Shant J.]

Yes and no... Depends on what's offered. For example, for mid-size, 3-Series or G37. For full-size 5-Series or CTS. Depends on who offers stick.

 

[eiriksmil]

I buy cars based on looks, the aftermarket supply and how it drives, not the badge. If the Lexus looked like crap, I wouldn't consider one. If I want a BMW because it looks better, I'd do it.
Oh, and I wouldn't buy a car brand new.

 

[TheCracker]

If you want a BMW, you'll buy a BMW. If you want a luxury Toyota or Nissan, perhaps you'll go for one of the other two. The competition between those manufacturers is something perceived by the marketing departments of Infiniti and Lexus. The only real competition BMW faces is from the similarly priced cars of Mercedes and Audi.

 

[Duke]

If you want a BMW, you'll buy a BMW. If you want a luxury Toyota or Nissan, perhaps you'll go for one of the other two. The competition between those manufacturers is something perceived by the marketing departments of Infiniti and Lexus. The only real competition BMW faces is from the similarly priced cars of Mercedes and Audi.

I do agree with this, though even as a BMW owner myself, I'm not a brand snob.

I can't speak to the current generations of these cars, but a couple years ago I was shopping among used varieties of the first three cars Gil mentioned. I ended up with a BMW 325i ZSP. Here's how it broke down for me, in this order:

Lexus IS300 (or IS250 or whatever it is - the Altezza one): Nice enough car. Decent styling, decent handling, decent power, interior nice but somewhat... odd, and not large. The interior styling was a weird mix of throwbacks (the binnacle) and ultra mod (the center stack). Not overly quick, but good enough for a DD. I started here because I assumed it would be a relative bargain, but asking prices seemed a bit high. More on this later.

Infiniti G35: Also a nice enough car. Better styling than the Lexus (and even more so in the current generation). Interior better than the Lexus, too - much roomier and with less oddness to the aesthetics, which increases functionality. Power was better, handling a little worse. Asking prices more in line with my expectations. Ultimately, I decided the G35 was exactly like a room from an Expedia "4 star" hotel: it was modern, it was luxurious enough, it was functional, it was reasonably priced. It was also very bland and didn't feel like "home". It also seemed somehow dated, even though it was only a couple years old.

Every car review of any midsize sedan with any sporting pretentions at all invariably compares it to the BMW 3, so I figured I might as well go to the source and see what the fuss is about. Up until now I had assumed that I would pay extra for the badge, so I hadn't bothered looking.

BMW 325i: Bingo.

The best styling of all three cars (E46, but I also think the E90 is the best of the current generations, even though I don't like it as much). The interior is simple, but uses nice materials, and is exquisitely functional. The design is classic without looking too dated. Power is a little better than the Lexus, a little worse than the Infiniti, and is adequate. The extra horses - a fair number of extra horses - in the G35 just didn't shine through the overall meh-ness of the car enough to grab my attention. But as I've said here before, and which Doug will tut-tut, it was the actual driving that made this car feel like a favorite chair or pair of jeans. You really just have to feel it to understand. It's not a supercar, but it makes every enthusiast driver feel like a brain surgeon. You can place it on the road exactly where you want it; it tells you exactly what's going on, and it answers you.

And it was the same price as the G35, and much cheaper than the IS300! Why buy a copy when you can have the original?

Gotta go right now, but more later.

[edit] OK, I'm back.


Yes, there are a million of 3-series on the road. There are a million G35s on the road, too. And "exclusivity" is a stupid value anyway. OK, I see five 3-series on the road to every one IS300. So what? That doesn't make the IS300 a better car. Why choose NOT to drive something good just because lots of people have already made the same choice? Most of the E46 3-series I see are base 325is or, for the more well-off, 330xis, all with automatic transmission. I've got a 325i ZSP sport package and a 5-speed. That's got all the important bits (to me) and none of the fluff. Would I have bought a 330i ZSP or ZHP? Hells yeah. I couldn't find the former and couldn't afford the latter.

On the subject of the newer cars, I'd have to drive them and see. I suspect that yes, I'd pay a premium for the BMW.

Frankly, I dislike the the new IS350's styling quite a bit. It would have to be a stellar car to get me to buy one.

The new G35 looks very similar in design and philosophy to the old one, and I suspect I would react the same way. It had plenty of power before and adding more isn't going to make it any more exciting.

I'm not as enthused about the E90 3-series (the sedan) but the E92 coupe is gorgeous. I'm stuck with a need for four doors, but the E90 is better than the IS350 and no worse than the new G. The 335i is written to be a marvel to drive - I'd have to experience that first hand and decide for myself, but based on my BMW experience, I've no reason to doubt it.

I keep my cars a looong time, so depreciation doesn't bother me much. I'd be more likely to buy a 2-year-old off-lease 335i and let the previous renter pay for the depreciation, anyway.

 

[1X83Z]

But as I've said here before, and which Doug will tut-tut, it was the actual driving that made this car feel like a favorite chair or pair of jeans. You really just have to feel it to understand.

New for new, you're paying $10k for "feel." To each his own. I know where my money's going in a year and a half, and it won't be anywhere near Germany

 

[GilesGuthrie]

If you want a BMW, you'll buy a BMW. If you want a luxury Toyota or Nissan, perhaps you'll go for one of the other two. The competition between those manufacturers is something perceived by the marketing departments of Infiniti and Lexus. The only real competition BMW faces is from the similarly priced cars of Mercedes and Audi.

As Duke so eloquently put, you really have to drive the candidate vehicle, and then make a value judgement. Is the car worth the difference to you? What else could you buy/sacrifice for the difference in price?

Oh, and I wouldn't buy a car brand new.

One day you may go to the used market and find that there simply is not a car for you. So you will have to commission the manufacturer to make one for you.

Also, there is an interesting comparison. If one were to compare the new cheaper car against a used more expensive car, where the price paid were the same, where would you end up? Is it worth it to you to exchange the security of the warranty and full knowledge of the car's history, for something which you may think is ultimately a better car? Does the fact that someone else has been blasting about in it for two years make it a worse car? Also, can you adjust your internal write-off time accordingly?

There are a lot of things to bear in mind that muddy the waters way beyond some review comic or web site can possibly hope to come to terms with.

 

[Wolfe]

Is it worth it to you to exchange the security of the warranty and full knowledge of the car's history, for something which you may think is ultimately a better car?

Yes. Always. Customizing and buying a brand-new car (at any price) is something I would only consider as a lottery winner or someone bringing home six figures. Otherwise it's too much of a waste of your hard-earned salary. If it were the difference between, say, a $15k Suzuki and a $15k '90s BMW, the decision would have been made before the question was even asked.

 

[Duke]

New for new, you're paying $10k for "feel." To each his own. I know where my money's going in a year and a half, and it won't be anywhere near Germany

It depends on feel, even at a $10k premium new-for-new. I'd have paid a $4k premium for my current car over a similar G35 or IS350. It's that much better to drive than either of those cars.

You disagree. That's why Infiniti and Lexus exist.

 

[Tornado]

Yes. Always.

BMW Mini (and various Ferraris) disagrees.

 

[Wolfe]

Hah, well, I would never buy a BMW Mini (sorry Joey) and I would rather own a 288 GTO than a Ferrari with a warranty.

 

[Joey D]

Hah, well, I would never buy a BMW Mini (sorry Joey) and I would rather own a 288 GTO than a Ferrari with a warranty.

Fair enough . I still love mine though and I do believe it's worth the extra price I paid for it.

 

[Wolfe]

I think it's a great little hot hatch, but I just couldn't live with that interior and I can't say I disagree with Toronado's rip on its reliability record.

 

[Joey D]

I think it's a great little hot hatch, but I just couldn't live with that interior and I can't say I disagree with Toronado's rip on its reliability record.

The last generation ones had issues but they have been worked out for the most part, now really the only ones that have engine reliability issues are the Cooper S, even more so with the JCW package. Really the only problem I've heard with the R56 Cooper's is that they eat brakes really bad and develop some rather strange rattles. Both of which I'm noticing.

Anything is more reliable then my Blazer was though.

 

[Funky P]

The premium that goes into BMW's is never actually seen, and that is the engineering. BMW's are just absolutely precision built machines made with little to no compromise. That's also the reason why the Germans have consistently dominated the international engine of the year award for the past several decades. BMW has won the title for almost all the engine categories they build, only ever losing to Porsche.

A Honda Accord can get the job done for pretty much anybody, but not everyone will buy one. There are people out there that enjoy driving and must get the best there is to offer, otherwise supercar manufactures wouldn't even exist.

 

[///M-Spec]

I wrote this back in December in this thread. I think it applies here.

It's a $50,000 luxury car. You don't rationalize a luxury item. It is not a logic problem. You buy it if you like it and can afford it.

Do you rationalize eating steak? One pound of tenderloin (filet mignon) is ~$12.00/lb. One pound of 'cheap' steak like a Bottom Round is ~$4.00/lb. So why would anyone buy the good stuff when they can eat three times as much cheap stuff for the same money?

The answer: because it tastes good. People like it and can afford it.

Note that I definately wouldn't characterize Infinitis as Bottom Round. They're excellent cars. But you get the point; when you start paying a lot of money for anything, it becomes more an emotional decision rather than a rational one. Given that the primary reason for a luxury item is to make you feel good, there really aren't any 1s or 0s involved. It's an analog thing.


M

 

[Gil]

Well, said.

I guess I had to bring this question up because I saw it asked on one of the newsy sites, but without the kind of "heart" an enthusiast would put into the equation.

I've loved BMW's since my first ride in a 320i, many years ago.

However, I am also a huge Infiniti fan since I got my chance behind the wheel.

My wife can't understand why ANYONE would want to spend that kind of money on any car. Hence she drives a Mazda6 iSport Value Edition. It rolled out the door at less than half the cost of a new 335i.

I helped choose because I know when I get ready for a new car (And the Camry is getting long in the tooth) we will end up getting another newer car for her and I'll be driving her hand me down (again).

If I hit the lotto, There's no telling what may occupy my garage, as I'm truly partial to the Cayman....but sensibility may kick in at the last second.

Thank you all for your informative, and in some cases humorous, responses.👍

 

[1X83Z]

It depends on feel, even at a $10k premium new-for-new. I'd have paid a $4k premium for my current car over a similar G35 or IS350. It's that much better to drive than either of those cars.

Vague clutch and total lack of power notwithstanding?

You BMW people baffle me

 

[Blake]

Is it worth it to you to exchange the security of the warranty and full knowledge of the car's history, for something which you may think is ultimately a better car?

It depends.

I’d draw a rough line at a budget of around $25k (AUD). Below that I’d rather go used because it’s far better value for money and you can still buy what I’d consider to be a worthwhile car. Above that sort of price you’re getting beyond the price of new econo-boxes and you can buy something real with the benefits of the warranty etc.

So basically until you can afford something you would actually want new, just buy it used.

 

[Casio]

Yeah, that's a hard decision, one I don't want to have to make.

For 25k, get a Polo GTi or Swift Sport in the colours and options I want, and I think more importantly a car that feels like "My car." Personally, if I had the money for a new car I don't think I could go past that, unless, I found the same exact car used with the options I wanted that was only a year or two old.