Is the badge worth the price of admission?

[Blackbird.]

Because you're buying more than performance. I can't believe people (not you; more specifically young kids who believe price is all about performance) can not comprehend that when you pay such & such over another car, you're not just buying a car with equal or slightly better performance, but a car that most likely has a better interior, terrific build quality, and much more.

I understand this... that's what I consider the meaning of buying the brand.

As far as the 350Z and Z4 Ms... I just said M Coupe because you said 350Z and didn't specifically say Roadster and if it's the 350Z coupe versus the M Coupe I'd pick the M Coupe on looks alone. If I had the surplus in money looks alone can sway my decision by a lot. But maybe that's my young age probably once I start paying for bills I won't be swayed so easily, hehe.

 

[McLaren]

I understand this... that's what I consider the meaning of buying the brand.

Well, of course you understand it. I've read your posts long enough to know you do.

 

[niky]

Yeah... I did allude to steak before... basically, you don't moan about how your Dad can cook a better steak in your backyard on an open grille surrounded by half-empty beer cans when you're at a 5-star restaurant... you're there for the experience.

I was more or less comparing sports cars with a similar price range. Take the G37 out and insert the 350Z and the Z4 looks even worse as a purchase to me.

Take the Z4 out and stick in a Mitsubish Evo... which is faster (well, the old one... not sure about the new one) and has more seat space, and the 350Z looks like a worse purchase. You're paying for the experience here, not just the performance. Otherwise we'd all be driving 400 horsepower Civics.

(Says the guy who drives a four door econobox with $$$ in mods sunk under the hood...)

It's not my thing... I value cheap performance and smiles per $$$s as much as the next guy... but I can understand what you're paying extra for in a "premium car".

 

[JCE]

The EVO isn't a competitor, I was trying to list competitors. We can argue an M3 vs EVO all day long if you like. In that instance I'll take the M.

But when I consider an Infiniti just as "luxurious" as a BMW does make me in error? It seems like people are buying BMW's JUST because they are and not because of any precieved or actual luxury. I mean Mercedes has more luxury than BMW--but people won't admit it. I understand brand loyalty, I just don't understand sometimes the huge price difference for the little extra you may or may not get. ?

 

[McLaren]

But when I consider an Infiniti just as "luxurious" as a BMW does make me in error? It seems like people are buying BMW's JUST because they are and not because of any precieved or actual luxury.

Infiniti is getting there, and even 1 of our US magazines has been touting for years the G is there with the 3. But the reason people buy the 3 is for the experience. Yes, you'll get the folks who will buy it just because it's a BMW badge, but you'll find that in many high-dollar brands. Hell, you can find folks who will buy a Toyota over a Nissan just because they like Toyota better. They're just brand snobs.

I mean Mercedes has more luxury than BMW--but people won't admit it. I understand brand loyalty, I just don't understand sometimes the huge price difference for the little extra you may or may not get. ?

It all depends on the person. BMW & Mercedes have always been close rivals. Infiniti & BMW though, just aren't. Many still consider Infiniti to be under BMW.

And yeah, Mercedes may be more luxurious, but they do like to add pretty hefty options. Also ignoring the AMG models, the usual Mercedes models just don't come off as sporty as some of BMW's models.

 

[Tornado]

Well, BMW's are generally better put together better than the comparable Infinitis, though they have been getting better.

 

[JCE]

Well, maybe an agree to disagree is approprite. I feel Infiniti and Lexus have arrived in terms of luxury and build quality vs my German brands. Fun and excitement...maybe that's another issue. But, the luxury, value and build quality is indeed there. Perhaps Infiniti competes directly with BMW while Lexus squares its axe towards Merc. (jokingly, who is going after Audi? )

 

[McLaren]

Well, maybe an agree to disagree is approprite. I feel Infiniti and Lexus have arrived in terms of luxury and build quality vs my German brands. Fun and excitement...maybe that's another issue. But, the luxury, value and build quality is indeed there. Perhaps Infiniti competes directly with BMW while Lexus squares its axe towards Merc. (jokingly, who is going after Audi? )

Shame both Infiniti & Lexus seem to have terrible dealers compared to Merc. & BMW ; this based on Sewell & Park Place compared to EWing & Classic.

 

[Blackbird.]

The EVO isn't a competitor, I was trying to list competitors. We can argue an M3 vs EVO all day long if you like. In that instance I'll take the M.

Evolutions are pretty damn fast, don't be fooled by them. Since they're a tuner car and most of them are modified in some way or another performance wise. My brother-in-law's Evo is almost at 300hp to the ground and it will stick you into your seat. As far as this BMW, Infiniti debate I can't really say much. My family has not owned one BMW, Infiniti, or Lexus for that matter.

 

[niky]

The Evo example is to show how you can take the notion of "competitor" to extremes...

Simply... is the Evo a competitor to the 350z because it's faster and stickers close to the same price? Nope. The inside of the Evo is pretty plasticky... less of an occassion than the 350z... and though the new Lancer looks prettier than ever, the 350z is still a low-slung, wide-hipped, sports car. If all you want is speed, you're getitng an Evo. (or you would have in previous generations... reports are the new one is soft... but I'm holding my verdict till I drive one... friends say it's pretty damn fast)

But if you want the drama of having a sports car... you're getting the Z.

Contrawise... if you want something with a touch of snob appeal, with a little more solidity in the build and ergonomics, you're looking at the Z4... while the prices for a lower-rung Z4 and the 350Z are similar, you're not actually cross-shopping... (if you wanted power, you'd be going for the Z4M....) ...you're buying the cars for different reasons.

Because if all we want is to go fast, we'd all be driving Super Seven clones with Evo engines. Everyone has their own level of compromise, and that's what premium branding is all about.

Granted, the Z4's interior isn't the best BMW has to offer (steering wheel too stupid thick... with those silver-colored plastics... should have just put an all-black thin-rimmed one in there...)... but it's screwed together with more conviction than a Nissan (and I'm a Nissan fan...).

Now if we're talking B-Class... now there's something I still don't get... we had one for a week-long test... I declined to even get in it... afterwards, my partners were all ranting about how it felt like a premium-badged Yaris... (errh... dead steering, weird driving position, etcetera...) ...only the ride was worse because of the silly big wheels. Sure, the interior leather was nice, but for that much money, I could have a Honda Fit redone in Ostrich hide and stuck on airbags.

 

[Scaff]

But when I consider an Infiniti just as "luxurious" as a BMW does make me in error? It seems like people are buying BMW's JUST because they are and not because of any precieved or actual luxury. I mean Mercedes has more luxury than BMW--but people won't admit it. I understand brand loyalty, I just don't understand sometimes the huge price difference for the little extra you may or may not get. ?

Go back 10 years ago or so and that would have been true, but not now and certainly not at the level being discussed here.

Compare the interior of a 3-series and a C-class and these days the C-class falls well behind. With a lot of cheap fitting and very hard budget plastics used below your line of sight.

When I find saw, sat in and drove the current gen of C-class I was shocked at how much the level of quality had been cut.

Currently BMW interiors are much better that the same level of Merc, and Audi beat them both on the interior side of things.


Regards

Scaff

 

[JCE]

Well Audi's interiors have always "feeled" right to me compared to the other two. But BMW and Merc have the distinction of feeling the same to me in terms of plastic feel. I still prefer the LOOK of the Merc interiors. And to the EVO comment, I'd take the M because you can live with it everyday (more room, more luxury, quieter, better MPG) and you don't have rediculous maintenance REQUIREMENTS that you do with the EVO. What is it, every 3,000~4,000 miles for service with the EVO? Highway robbery.

 

[///M-Spec]

Hmmm. Where do I start. I guess this is going to be long as hell...

Re: Comparing apples to oranges

I was more or less comparing sports cars with a similar price range. Take the G37 out and insert the 350Z and the Z4 looks even worse as a purchase to me.

That's because you're only looking at the features and specs that make your argument look good and ignoring the advantages a Z4 (or any BMW) brings to the table.

For one, you really need an apples to apples comparison, instead cherry-picking what data to show and stacking the field. Conceptually, the best car to compare to a 350Z would be a $40,700 Z4 3.0si Coupe (or price-wise, a $34,900 135i Coupe). We could delve into the mind-numbing minutia of going feature for feature, but I think the basic, fundamental differences of comparing a BMW to a Nissan lies in engineering and refinement, especially with the Z4.

Z4 is based on a much stiffer unit body than the 350Z. (32,000Nm/degree, stiffer than Cayman, almost as stiff as 997) You can tell as soon as you drive one (which I'm going to presume you haven't). BMW also spends a lot more money and engineering in NVH control and 'perceived quality' of all the switch gear and primary controls. A very obvious reminder of this is the engines. The VQ is powerful and has a lot of torque, but is coarse, harsh and buzzy at high revs. Comparatively, the Z4's N52 is utterly smooth even at redline.

Second, the BMW, through more extensive use of high-strength steel and aluminum (including the hood) weighs ~260 lbs. lighter than a Z Touring (3,108 vs. 3,376). It also has better weight distribution (50/50 vs. 53/47). And it has more interior passenger space and cargo room as well.

Don't forget that all new BMWs come with free maintenance. Free oil changes, free inspections, wiper blades, etc. Further reducing the cost of ownership. Also, most dealers will put you in a free (BMW) loaner car while you get your (free) work done. I've also had a Nissan before I can tell that NONE of that happens at a Nissan dealership.

So do all these things make the Z4 Coupe a better sports car than a 350Z? It depends on what your priorities are. There's no argument from me that on paper, the 350Z is a very good car and a great value. But the only advantages it has against something like the Z4 is price and horsepower. If you want something more sophisticated and better built, then you might want the BMW.

This all goes back to the steak thing. Seriously, I know you've seen it. But you keep ignoring it. I guess your silence on the matter is the best proof that it's a good argument.


Re: Shifting standards around to suit the argument

The M coupe would be much more expensive for not that much more performance. They both do 0-60 in around 5.0s flat. (which again I point out is meaningless) And yes the Z4 M handles good--but so does the 350Z. A Nismo-spec Z versus a Z4 M would be a more close comparison--which would have the 350Z ahead me thinks.

You seemed to build your first argument around the fact that you get more performance from the 350Z for the same money. Now that you're comparing the Z against a better performing car, you want play down the performance difference.

So from where I'm standing, it looks like you are flip-flopping your standards of judgment to suit the car you like. Not very objective.

Re: Interiors

The interior of that BMW while better than the 350Z--isn't as good as you think it is. Looks good, but doesn't feel as it should from a German car.

The point is that's it's way better than the 350Z's interior, isn't it? This is another example of changing things around to suit the argument. Be fair and objective for a moment. It's better than the SLK's interior, about on par with the Boxster and not quite as good as the TT's. It's nothing special; average for the class. But still far, far better than the Z's.

Re: Why we should stick to talk about cars instead of people

But when I consider an Infiniti just as "luxurious" as a BMW does make me in error? It seems like people are buying BMW's JUST because they are and not because of any precieved or actual luxury.

It irritates me when I read something like this. It's not because of your thinking Infinitis are as "luxurious" as BMWs, but because you assume that because that anyone who doesn't share your opinion has made an error in judgment.

Why do you like Audis and Benzs? All the, "is it worth the money" arguments you made can also be applied to them as well. But for some reason, this "worth it?" rule seems to only apply to a premium brand you don't like. How convenient.

RE: Wait. What?

I mean Mercedes has more luxury than BMW--but people won't admit it. I understand brand loyalty, I just don't understand sometimes the huge price difference for the little extra you may or may not get. ?

Well first, that's debatable.

And second... What?? What the hell does Mercedes have to do with this? Benzs are just as expensive, if not more expensive than BMWs. Like I said earlier, every "worth it?" question applied to BMW, you can apply to a Merc.

But somehow MB and Audi are impervious to this type of scrutiny. Why?

I think your bias is way obvious.


M

 

[Blackbird.]

I've been in several BMWs and I wouldn't buy them because "OMG I own a Bimmer!!!211" but because after sitting in them, driving in them, and just generally spending a long period of time in them. Old and new, they are extremely well built and everything feels solid. Even though MB is off-topic I still see MB as a luxurious cruiser and BMW as the sports car. *shrug*

 

[Gil]

When I originally posed this question I knew that there would be some ire tossed about as each of us try to support our position.

I ask that we try to keep it somewhat civil, as in the end this is just an internet forum. Further, I'm not trying to "sway" anyone's opinion towards their "pet" brand of car.

Duke is in the perfect positon to be on either side of this debate as he owns both a 3-series BMW and an Acura TSX.
That covers both sides of the equation pretty well, as the BMW is the "target" for most manufacturers.

I spent my formative years in a Mercedes 280 sedan. My father finally relented and bought my mother a 1974 model in 1980. (My mother was over the moon, even though she had her heart set on a 450SL)

I have in the past extolled the virtues of this car. To this day I'm amazed that a car with a displacement of a mere 2.8 liters could be so damn fast!
It was an effortless freeway cruiser.
It handled as good as any sporting intentioned car of that time period, and it was a 4-door sedan. A rather staid sedan just to look at.
It was reasonably equipped, with a Becker AM-FM stereo, leather, sunroof, those "funky" Mercedes "standing lights", etc.
My only compaints concerning that old Benzie was that it was not a terribly comfy ride for more than about 2 hours. My Father's softly suspended Ford Wagon was more comfy on a long trip. It did not handle as well, but it was like riding in your living room.

If I have a budget of $35,000 what am I gonna buy?

Likely one of the Japanese near luxo cars.
But only because I can get a lot newer car for the money.

Now days ALL cars are complicated enough that "routine" maintenance is best left to professionals. Anything beyond that is nearly mandatory to leave to the pros.
A newer model (Japanese) car is less likely to need professional intervention than an older German Luxo-Tourer due to lesser wear and tear.

However, on a "money no object" basis...I'd really love to have an M3 or an E-Class.

 

[///M-Spec]

When I originally posed this question I knew that there would be some ire tossed about as each of us try to support our position.

I ask that we try to keep it somewhat civil, as in the end this is just an internet forum. Further, I'm not trying to "sway" anyone's opinion towards their "pet" brand of car.

Duke is in the perfect positon to be on either side of this debate as he owns both a 3-series BMW and an Acura TSX.
That covers both sides of the equation pretty well, as the BMW is the "target" for most manufacturers.

Gil, I hope you understand that because I'm fielding arguments against and arguing on behalf of BMWs, doesn't mean I'm "on a side". My position all along has been that some people will see value in 'premium' cars and some people won't. That doesn't make one side "right" and the other "wrong". It just means that you buy what suits your budget and your taste, at the time when a decision is to be made.

I think the ultimate statement about brand loyalty is where you put your money. So consider: You may not know this, but until a few months ago, my wife's car was a Nissan. Here is a old picture of it behind my old 3-series.



Could we have bought an BMW X5 or MB ML320 instead? Sure. But in the end, the advantages of either car simply wasn't strong enough to warrant the extra expense. So we put our money down on what we thought was the best for us, at that time. We thought it was a fantastic crossover and were very pleased with it. To this day, I would recommend a Murano to anyone.

But the difference between me and someone arguing on behalf of "a side" is that we never went around thinking people who bought X5s or MLs were fools or badge whores. Another BMW or a Mercedes (or an Acura, we looked at those too) simply didn't suit us at the time. But that doesn't mean we thought the people who did get an X5 made a mistake.

And when time came to replace the FWD Murano for something AWD, a BMW was considered again, and ultimately rejected.



Yes, we bought a car from Munich's arch-nemesis. So much for my "pet brand", eh?

So I hope you understand where I'm coming from, Gil: that my point isn't to wave a blue and white flag, but to point out that different cars suit different people. Nobody likes arguments in their thread, and for my part in it, I do say "sorry, bud". But I really couldn't stay silent in the face of what amounts to a hatchet job on a company that I think makes some pretty good products.


M

 

[niky]

Well Audi's interiors have always "feeled" right to me compared to the other two. But BMW and Merc have the distinction of feeling the same to me in terms of plastic feel. I still prefer the LOOK of the Merc interiors. And to the EVO comment, I'd take the M because you can live with it everyday (more room, more luxury, quieter, better MPG) and you don't have rediculous maintenance REQUIREMENTS that you do with the EVO. What is it, every 3,000~4,000 miles for service with the EVO? Highway robbery.

At least you don't need to load the Evo with liquid gold.

Of course, the ridiculously short service intervals of the old Evo were due to the fact that you had an engine making near 150 hp per liter... wich is race-car territory and pretty bad for the engine...

The new engine is a grounds-up design, which can go for about 10,000 miles between services, thanks to better valvetrain, crankshaft, piston, bearing, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera... design... ain't technology wonderful?

Go back 10 years ago or so and that would have been true, but not now and certainly not at the level being discussed here.

Compare the interior of a 3-series and a C-class and these days the C-class falls well behind. With a lot of cheap fitting and very hard budget plastics used below your line of sight.

When I find saw, sat in and drove the current gen of C-class I was shocked at how much the level of quality had been cut.

Currently BMW interiors are much better that the same level of Merc, and Audi beat them both on the interior side of things.


Regards

Scaff

Audi's interiors are damn fantastic compared to anything else on the planet. Between BMW and Merc... yeah, I'd say BMW currently has the upper hand... as I've said before... it's how they're screwed together... what surprises me is that even the most plasticky parts of a BMW are put together with more care than you'd think people would put into a plastic part... though that doesn't make the plastic feel any less plasticky.

Had a 320i for two days a month back... fantastic car... automatic, sadly... but still fantastic... drove it to the X6 test-drive (on the track)... absolutely smashing auto... handles like a dream (even compared to the X5).

I still love my Mazda sedan, though... and for less money, the Mazda CX9 gives you 85% of what the X6 does. But I can understand these cars... if I had the money to own one, I'd buy a Bimmer in a heartbeat.

And that's the whole thing... it's different strokes for different folks, as M-Spec says... you pick a car that ticks off all the boxes, whatever the label.

It's steak... it has always been about the steak. But if you don't have the money for a 5-star steak dinner, or have never even tried it, out of curiosity (budget some for the wine, too), you'll never understand...