Is the CSR Elite better than the T500 rs?

[Mr Latte]

He wouldn't sell it, he has all the gear and uses it for testing when needed.

Your right mate I wont sell it, well not at this stage.

However their is little point me considering to keep it when:

a) The compatibility issue, still no confirmation all PS3 racing games from various developers will fully support it.
b) I do prefer the CSR Elite over it both in the wheel rim comfort and general performance including having the Fanatec wheel menu options available.
c) I am growing more tempted to get back to PC gaming at some point this year. If this urge continues then I would have a CSW over a T500RS and likely keep the CSR Elite for Xbox duties.

So rather than have Elite and T500RS Id rather have Elite & CSW.

Don't forget the CSR-E is cheaper than the CSW. So some people will no doubt consider the csr-e due to the cheaper price. The xbox compat is just extra icing for some

I think things will change a little when the CSW is available.
For instance part of the problem with the CSR Elite "rim upgrading" either official product or personal mods.
The additional price those bring will likely make them appeal to users needing/wanting X360 support.

The CSW if approx £200/$200 more over an Elite would likely be a better purchase for non X360 users than spending £150/$150+ on rim modifications or a waiting for a Fanatec rim likely in the £100/$100 - £130/$130 price point.

 

[ilonioum]

To be honest I've also been thinking about getting CSW as a second wheel for PC games.
I'm not sure though if it worth it since the CSR Elite is already a magnificent wheel for both PC and PS3 gaming.

 

[Spagetti69]

To be honest I've also been thinking about getting CSW as a second wheel for PC games.
I'm not sure though if it worth it since the CSR Elite is already a magnificent wheel for both PC and PS3 gaming.

I would imagine what ever rim comes as standard for the CSW will also be available for the CSE as an add on.

You basically would then have a base CSW.
If wanting the Quick release system its worth waiting to see what eventual rims are available and price points.

Just my op.

 

[Mr Latte]

It does make sense to do a BMW version rim for the CSR Elite or something like that. However I would particulary want Fanatec to add the "CSW paddle shifters" and how they can be moved/positioned etc. That is a feature I feel the CSR Elite should of had over the "G25 style shifters" the CSR had. They feel pretty good but the Elite should of been (imo) improved more over the standard product regards the wheel rim.

My own report cant be completed until the CSW releases. I think it is now important to review both products beside each other as interests grows and for many it may be hard choosing. Their is already enough reviews available that clearly seem to be stating the CSR Elite is a better product (in general) than other current mass produced wheels. This does not mean it is perfect but when taking everything onboard and as for this thread how many have stated (in general) the T500RS is a better wheel?

 

[amf7]

I wonder how much say T10 have. It is liscensed by them don't forget.

 

[Spagetti69]

I wonder how much say T10 have. It is liscensed by them don't forget.

Are you sure about that. Can't see T10 having final say on Fanatec products.

Pretty sure they will let Thomas make the wheels as Thomas lets them make the games.

 

[Mr Latte]

I do not think the contirbution in development from T10 is very high at all.
Either with FM3 or indeed FM4. Could be wrong of course.

I believe their position is to work with all partners equally regards their own resources.
Most of the work between them is likely in testing "compatibility and features" not so much on fine tuning the wheel performance within the game. Once confirmed to be compatibile or meet the required test proceedures they are likely happy.

I believe Fanatec would do most of their own development with possibly a beta version of the game and a dev X360 prior to retail release. Could be wrong but that is what I expect happens with each manufacturer. They get a dev kit with limited version of the game?

One thing though, is that the handbrake options are already in the games controller settings. Yet we still await a release and price of handbrake first shown at E3.

 

[sandboxgod]

Yeah like you guys have pointed out, I am going to wait to see what Fanatec has in regards to wheel rims for the csr-e later down the road. That BMW rim would be really sweet

Interesting point about the handbrake

It does make sense to do a BMW version rim for the CSR Elite or something like that. However I would particulary want Fanatec to add the "CSW paddle shifters" and how they can be moved/positioned etc. That is a feature I feel the CSR Elite should of had over the "G25 style shifters" the CSR had. They feel pretty good but the Elite should of been (imo) improved more over the standard product regards the wheel rim.

My own report cant be completed until the CSW releases. I think it is now important to review both products beside each other as interests grows and for many it may be hard choosing. Their is already enough reviews available that clearly seem to be stating the CSR Elite is a better product (in general) than other current mass produced wheels. This does not mean it is perfect but when taking everything onboard and as for this thread how many have stated (in general) the T500RS is a better wheel?

That will be really awesome when you review both wheels side-by-side.

 

[Snotgobbler]

Hey all.

Just to say, I thought I'd start a specific CSR-E rim thread to pass on any collective thoughts to Thomas...

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=238506

 

[mykem]

I might add to this that while here it is a battle between the T500RS and the CSR Elite, the guys over on iRacing are discussing if the CSR Elite is better than the Frex wheel.

Not many people have both wheels but the one who does, says that the CSR E clearly wins and this opinion is without consideration of the price. This is more a real apples vs apples comparison

(And no, this guy is not a tester and I never had contact with him)

Are there more Frex or ECCI owners here? I would love to send them a wheel for testing.

Here's the original review to those who aren't members/subscribers of iRacing: http://tiny.cc/yyfrbw

Here's a more recent assessment from the same guy who pasted the initial comparison (it's on the second page of the original thread). He's finding that the belt on the CSR-E is slipping too much to afford a consistent performance.

"As the belt slip situation is now, I have a hard time recommending this wheel to FFB purists.
Although as you know I have had some comments regarding FFB and backlash issues on the Frex wheel, Frex should as it is now overall perform better when it comes to these types of issues."

 

[HoiHman]

Here's the original review to those who aren't members/subscribers of iRacing: http://tiny.cc/yyfrbw

Here's a more recent assessment from the same guy who pasted the initial comparison (it's on the second page of the original thread). He's finding that the belt on the CSR-E is slipping too much to afford a consistent performance.

"As the belt slip situation is now, I have a hard time recommending this wheel to FFB purists.
Although as you know I have had some comments regarding FFB and backlash issues on the Frex wheel, Frex should as it is now overall perform better when it comes to these types of issues."

I received a replacement CSR Elite from the new batch. Seems like with this new batch and the new firmware the belt slipping issue is solved.

I've had the wheel for over two weeks now and i have not noticed any belt slipping.

 

[Mahnegold]

Just for my understanding:

Thomas mentioned "...the guys over at iRacing..." but later in his post he is talking about "...this guy..."

I don't have access to iRacing, so is it a single opinion Thomas is referring to? Otherwise it might be a bit misleading...



On the other hand, in ISR Episode 97 (T500 review) they have a Frex or Ecci owner (not 100% sure) testing the T500. His opinion was, that T500 is at least in the same league. So here as well apples vs. apples?



And regarding the belt slip:

From a technical point of view I have difficulties to understand, how a new firmware should have influence on something like belt slipping. Can somebody please explain?

 

[HoiHman]

And regarding the belt slip:

From a technical point of view I have difficulties to understand, how a new firmware should have influence on something like belt slipping. Can somebody please explain?

It's not just the firmware, but also a new production batch.

Maybe fanatec adjusted the tension of the belt to avoid slipping in this new production batch.

 

[Fanatec...]

A slipping belt has absolutely no influence on the perfomance of the wheel or the feeling of the FF. I can understand that the noise can be an issue but not always when the belts are slipping it makes any noise. This is a rather theoretical problem which can only be found if you are not driving but looking to the inside of the wheel.

If the top cover would not be transparent nobody would notice. And in fact the wheel performs better with some slipping as the total resistance of the belt drive is lower and subtle FF effects are better noticable.

The belt system is totally different from the Porsche wheels or other belt driven wheels where slipping belts would indeed be a huge problem. But with every new technology there are many concerns and sceptism.

 

[fatkrakr]

Do you have any news on when the csw will be ready for release. Kinda itching for a new wheel. Im hoping this might be the one. Thanks

 

[geo1098]

Comparing a four year old product to a new product isn't exactly apples to apples

T500 vs CSR-E is probably the more valid discussion due to price, availability, and console support.

I think we'd have a clear winner if quality of assembly and durability would be addressed. I hope it is with the CSW. I'd like to compare my F1-T500 with the F1-CSW.

 

[novadave]

A slipping belt has absolutely no influence on the perfomance of the wheel or the feeling of the FF. I can understand that the noise can be an issue but not always when the belts are slipping it makes any noise. This is a rather theoretical problem which can only be found if you are not driving but looking to the inside of the wheel.

If the top cover would not be transparent nobody would notice. And in fact the wheel performs better with some slipping as the total resistance of the belt drive is lower and subtle FF effects are better noticable.

The belt system is totally different from the Porsche wheels or other belt driven wheels where slipping belts would indeed be a huge problem. But with every new technology there are many concerns and sceptism.

i hope you did not get this idea from your engineer because it could not be further from the truth.
from an engineering standpoint it is the exact opposite.
and at least in the porsche wheels belt slippage could never be a factor as you are aware it is a cog belt system.
and if there is noise from the v-belt it is due to heat build up induced by slippage.

 

[Fanatec...]

Novadave
I would be curious to see if you can tell in a blind test the difference between a CSR E with and without slipping belts while driving. So far we did not find any tester who could tell if and when a belt was sliding during the race. We are talking about a minimal slip and only against maximum force feedback power. If you want to know more about that, i can invite you to have a private discussion with our engineers.

And yes, cog belts can slip if there is not enough tension or if there is an issue with the gear shape. But as I mentioned above this would be a big issue and destroys the belt.

geo1098
The T500RS is using exactly the same belt system what we use on our Porsche wheels.

 

[LogiForce]

From a simple point of view, but isn't it so that if there is slippage it means the belt is not transferring the power from the motor to the wheel? If so then isn't it so that you will notice it while driving however so slight the drop may be in power. I'll be interesting to see how this works in a positive way like you said, Thomas.
Then there is the point of slippage causing extra wear due to heat and friction. Another point of concern.

I can't wait to check these things for myself.

 

[geo1098]

geo1098
The T500RS is using exactly the same belt system what we use on our Porsche wheels.

I don't doubt the belts are of high quality and good design in both wheels. I'd venture to guess the feedback motor is stronger in the T500 (I've never owned one of your Porsche wheels) but I know that doesn't equal better.

I was referring more to the overall quality, specifically dealing with assembly, although Thrustmaster has its share of issues as well. From a consumer perspective they seem to be more proactive in resolving those in later versions. i.e. Haven't seen much chatter about issues with v.5.

I have your CSR Elite pedals so component quality is certainly clear to see. There is definitely more of a wow factor aesthetically with your elite products. At some point I'm sure I'll be an owner of your forthcoming F1 CSW wheel. Hoping to see a proper row of shift lights, bummer Thrustmaster decided to omit those from their F1 wheel.

 

[redmalloc]

A slipping belt has absolutely no influence on the perfomance of the wheel or the feeling of the FF.

I assume you mean something like this?

"A belt that is slipping within its design limits will have little or no noticeable influence on the performance of the wheel or the feeling of the FF"

Because without qualification, it is pretty obvious that a slipping belt can effect performance.

 

[Fanatec...]

You are correct. This is a much better way to express it.

 

[ilonioum]

If a belt is slipping in a car it mostly makes noize only without affecting the performance. Same in the racing wheel, if it slips - tighten it a bit, it is easy to

By the way, I prefer a slipping belt to a broken gear...

 

[LogiForce]

If a belt is slipping in a car it mostly makes noize only without affecting the performance. Same in the racing wheel, if it slips - tighten it a bit, it is easy to

By the way, I prefer a slipping belt to a broken gear...

I wouldn't want to have a slipping timing belt though.

Also it depends if you want to have anything broken or slipping or not. No matter if it's a belt or a gear. If either is custom designed there is no way to find a proper replacement and at that point it doesn't matter which is better in my opinion.

 

[novadave]

Novadave
I would be curious to see if you can tell in a blind test the difference between a CSR E with and without slipping belts while driving. So far we did not find any tester who could tell if and when a belt was sliding during the race. We are talking about a minimal slip and only against maximum force feedback power. If you want to know more about that, i can invite you to have a private discussion with our engineers.

And yes, cog belts can slip if there is not enough tension or if there is an issue with the gear shape. But as I mentioned above this would be a big issue and destroys the belt.

geo1098
The T500RS is using exactly the same belt system what we use on our Porsche wheels.

.

you would be surprised.
how about we go one step further.
i will be giving a semiar (Powertrain Selection for Fuel Economy and Acceleration Performance) at the S.A.E. world conress in detroit in april.
we could make the discussion and test a public affair.

do not forget the human body is capable of more than just feeling an effect.
there is also audible and visual senses.

when it comes to the point that the slippage is audible then the belt will be flat spotted after prolonged exposure to such a stress.

as for the cog belt system the only way for it to slip is to have a mechanical design flaw in the tensioning system.

http://www.sae.org/congress/

 

[fatkrakr]

I can agree that some slippage probably wont effect performance to much, but if it slips to the point of making noise I would say that is something you would notice in ffb effects. For it to slip and make noise it has to get the belt hot. To get the belt hot would take allot of slipping that I think you would notice.

 

[novadave]

If a belt is slipping in a car it mostly makes noize only without affecting the performance. Same in the racing wheel, if it slips - tighten it a bit, it is easy to

By the way, I prefer a slipping belt to a broken gear...

the belt slippage in a car can effect performance - it depends on what system is being effected - example (if you have multiple belts such as the alternator belt slipping then that would effect the charging system)
if the belt for the water pump is slipping then the engine could overheat etc.

in these wheels tightening the belt could damage the ff motor shaft bearings if there is too much tension.
without proper testing and equipment there is no correct way to adjust the v-belt tension.
i my opinion fanatec should have stayed with the cog belt system or add a automatic belt tensioner to the design to eliminate future belt tension problems

 

[Fanatec...]

The cog belt system is much too risky and very vulnerable to manufacturing tolerances. As you seem to be an expert, you are certainly aware that tolerances can add up in the drive system and therefore are hard to control. And in case a cog belt slips, it is damaged. V-belts can slip a bit without beeing damaged and if there is no noise then you will not notice anything. I can live with the fact that it might hurt your visual senses as this has lower priority to us than the haptic feedback you get.

An automatic belt tensioner is just adding friction and this is the real enemy when it comes to force feedback performance. We probably have more experience than any other company with belt driven force feedback wheels and we leaned our lessons

 

[Mahnegold]

As you seem to be an expert, ...

A bit ironic here Thomas?

Some of the questions does make sense. Have you ever had the idea, that your explanations were not always 100% satisfying?

For example I am still waiting for an explanation, why a steering axis has to have a bit of play. Maybe you call me also an expert Thomas, but I own more then just one wheel and also other technical devices (e.g. RC cars) and none of them has to have play in any axis as long it has a proper ball bearing.

 

[Spagetti69]

Play is introduced when heat is involved to avoid binding when expansion happens. Tappets, Crankshafts etc.

Your talking thousands of an inch mind.
How much play in the Wheel are we talking here?