Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[inCloud]

The countries confirmed that their citizens died in Gaza due to the IDF strike

And? I didn't say its lie. Both HAMAS and organisations working in Gaza could say truth. Or not.

really don’t understand @inCloud’s stance on this. I’m a little confused to say the least

Don't believe anything from Gaza, unless confirmed by multiple sources. Its always coming from Israel/HAMAS propaganda.

 

[Joey D]

And? I didn't say its lie. Both HAMAS and organisations working in Gaza could say truth. Or not.

You have clearly stated that people will say whatever HAMAS wants because they, apparently, control everything.

The official wasn't HAMAS, the Palestinian Red Crescent isn't related to a terrorist organization, and the countries whose citizens were killed by the IDF aren't being influenced by HAMAS. To think otherwise is being conspiratorial at best and deliberately sowing disinformation at worst. You have to see how asinine this sounds, right?

 

[inCloud]

The official wasn't HAMAS, the Palestinian Red Crescent isn't related to a terrorist organization

Here we go again.

the countries whose citizens were killed by the IDF aren't being influenced by HAMAS

Did I said that?

 

[Sprite]

Don't believe anything from Gaza, unless confirmed by multiple sources. Its always coming from Israel/HAMAS propaganda.

It’s been confirmed by World Central Kitchen. I understand your reluctance in believing news if not confirmed but I see no reason to doubt this news.

Confirmed strike by Israel, confirmed by Palestine, confirmed by Red Crescent and also World Central Kitchen.

World Central Kitchen | 7 WCK team members killed in Gaza

World Central Kitchen is devastated to confirm seven members of our team have been killed in an IDF strike in Gaza.

wck.org

 

[Joey D]

Here we go again.

Did I said that?

Yes...

Unless you think HAMAS is telling the UK, Australia, and Poland what to say.

I think you would do whatever HAMAS wants while you at Gaza.

Look, if this is a language problem where you can't understand what's being posted in English, perhaps getting involved in debates isn't the best place. Other than that, I legitimately can't understand you using the "Shaggy Defense".

 

[inCloud]

you can't understand what's being posted in English

I can. UK, Australia, and Poland aren't placed in Gaza, AFAIK.

 

[Liquid]

I can. UK, Australia, and Poland aren't placed in Gaza, AFAIK.

But citizens of those countries are? It's really not hard to understand.

 

[Joey D]

I can. UK, Australia, and Poland aren't placed in Gaza, AFAIK.

Ok so let me spell it out, once again.

You asked who the official was and I told you it was Mahmoud Thabet of the Palestinian Red Crescent. You then claimed that everything in Palestine was under HAMAS or IDF control and that an independent opinion could be given. I showed you that several countries confirmed that their citizens were killed by an IDF strike. Your reply to this was that you'd say whatever HAMAS wants, which is odd because those countries aren't influenced by HAMAS at all. Your entire premise that the information couldn't be trusted because it came from an independent NGO since that NGO must be under HAMAS influence, is completely wrong. The countries confirmed that their citizens were killed by an IDF strike and Netanyahu also confirmed this.

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that you might not understand what's being written since English isn't your first language. But since it seems like that was a wrong assumption, it goes back to you being conspiratorial at best and deliberately spreading disinformation at worst, with being bigoted against Palestinians falling somewhere in the middle. I don't know if any of that is true, but reading what you're writing, that's how it comes off. You have repeatedly said for us not to lump the Russian people in with the Russian government and you go right ahead and lump the Palestinian people in with HAMAS (and not for the first time either).

If an NGO (the Palestinian Red Crescent) says something, it's not necessarily disinformation. When the leader of the country that committed the act confirms it and the countries whose citizens die also confirm it, it's a pretty good indicator that it isn't a load of bull.

 

[inCloud]

But citizens of those countries are

I cannot recommend to believe those, until they evacuated from HAMAS controlled part of Gaza.

Your reply to this was that you'd say whatever HAMAS wants

... while in Gaza.

Your entire premise that the information couldn't be trusted because it came from an independent NGO since that NGO must be under HAMAS influence, is completely wrong

Because? Why its wrong? HAMAS couldn't kill anyone in Gaza?

If an NGO (the Palestinian Red Crescent) says something, it's not necessarily disinformation.

You keep putting words in my mouth. Never said that.

 

[Joey D]

Because? Why its wrong? HAMAS couldn't kill anyone in Gaza?

Because the countries of the citizens that died confirmed it, and the prime minister of Israel, Netanyahu, confirmed it. Yes, HAMAS can kill people, but they didn't kill the people that we've been talking about, for Christ's sake.

You keep putting words in my mouth. Never said that.

Yes, you did:

Everything in Palestine under IDF or HAMAS control. Not sure how you think someone could stay there and spread independent opinion.

 

[GranTurNismo]

 

[inCloud]

Because the countries of the citizens that died confirmed it

Because of that we should trust everything Palestine RC said?

Yes, HAMAS can kill people, but they didn't kill the people that we've been talking about, for Christ's sake.

Wat?

 

[Joey D]

Because of that we should trust everything Palestine RC said?

We should trust what they said in this instance because it was true, and we should dismiss the Red Crescent because they have Palestinians in the name.

Wat?

HAMAS didn't kill the foreign nationals who died in the IDF strike.

 

[inCloud]

We should trust what they said in this instance because it was true

Ok, I don't say otherwise.

we should dismiss the Red Crescent because they have Palestinians in the name

We should, because Gaza is under control of terrorist organisations.

HAMAS didn't kill the foreign nationals who died in the IDF strike.

Why its matter in discussion of should we trust PRC or not?

 

[Liquid]

Why its matter in discussion of should we trust PRC or not?

You are the one making it an issue.

 

[Touring Mars]

Hamas can and do control, infiltrate and intimidate anyone or any organisation in Gaza that they want - but even so, there are many people and organisations who do essential work there despite the ever-present threat of Hamas's influence/harassment.

Unfortunately, Israel are treating nigh on everyone in Gaza as if they are complicit in Hamas's actions, which amounts to collective punishment - something Israel has meted out to Palestinians for years, against international law. What Israel is currently doing in Gaza beggars belief and is unconscionable - but yet, Hamas bear as much responsibility for visiting this tragedy on the people of Gaza, and indeed one suspects that the higher-ups in Hamas, the wider region, Qatar, Iran and Russia are very likely delighted with what is currently happening in Gaza, because Israel is taking the bait - they want Israel to take enough rope to hang themselves with, and their western backers to boot.

Meanwhile, civilised people the world over can only watch in abject horror as Gaza descends into hell, with one side committed to illegal and grossly immoral acts of collective punishment/genocide, and the other side more than happy for them to do it.

 

[inCloud]

collective punishment

Do we have any hard proofs of that? I don't say IDF not using indirect fire, but collective punishment is serious claim.

 

[Touring Mars]

Do we have any hard proofs of that? I don't say IDF not using indirect fire, but collective punishment is serious claim.

I suppose that depends on whether you consider genocide and man-made famine collective punishment.

I do.

 

[Scaff]

Do we have any hard proofs of that? I don't say IDF not using indirect fire, but collective punishment is serious claim.

To quote Israel themselves...

“We are putting a complete siege on Gaza. … No electricity, no food, no water, no gas – it’s all closed,” Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant said in a video statement on Monday, justifying the move by describing Palestinians as “beastly people”.

...that is the very definition of collective punishment. You don't need to look for it, Israel openly admits to it.

 

[Famine]

man-made famine collective punishment

Some may well say so.

 

[inCloud]

genocide

But its not. Israel doesn't have intentions to wipe out specific group.

No electricity, no food, no water, no gas – it’s all closed

Water and electricity were supplied by Israel. If we think about Palestine as independent state, I can't see why Israel should provide those. Convoys with meds and food from Egypt still coming, afaik.

 

[Touring Mars]

But its not. Israel doesn't have intentions to wipe out specific group.

Intention and specificity are irrelevant. Israel is purposefully wiping out the population of Gaza irrespective of their involvement or complicity in aggression against Israel. That counts as genocide in my book - but, as I said previously, this is exactly what Hamas and their backers want to happen, and that makes Hamas, Iran, Russia et al. not only complicit, but intent on causing a holocaust to further their own aims.

 

[inCloud]

Intention and specificity are irrelevant

Genocide is tied to intentional behaviour, its not genocide if there isn't intention.

 

[Touring Mars]

Genocide is tied to intentional behaviour, its not genocide if there isn't intention.

There is nothing whatsoever accidental about what is happening to the people of Gaza - it is entirely intentional, and both sides in the conflict between Hamas/Iran and Israel are responsible.

 

[Scaff]

Water and electricity were supplied by Israel. If we think about Palestine as independent state, I can't see why Israel should provide those.

Because not doing so is collective punishment. Do you honestly think that Israel would allow Gaza to produce it's own or obtain it from another source?

Actually don't bother, your blatant desire to excuse a clear example of collective punishment indicates you're not an honest broker in this. That you suggest thinking about Palestine as am independent state is laughable, the Gaza strip has been under maritime, air and land blockade by Israel since 2007, they control who can leave and even who can travel between Gaza and the West Bank. They destroyed all ports and the single airport that existed in Gaza, while technically one crossing does exist that Israel doesn't control, with Egypt, they exert massive pressure on Egypt to control it (and retain the right to refuse entry or exit to anyone they like) and have repeatedly bombed the road just outside it.

 

[Imari]

Genocide is tied to intentional behaviour, its not genocide if there isn't intention.

You think that a military force from a major country can just kill 30,000 people by mistake? Israel knows what they're doing, and if they somehow didn't the rest of the world has been pointing it out to them for months. Intentionality is not an excuse at this stage.

Water and electricity were supplied by Israel. If we think about Palestine as independent state, I can't see why Israel should provide those.

Because Gaza is not an independent state. It's been under occupation and blockade for more than a decade. As an occupying power, Israel inherits responsibility for providing civilians with basic needs or at least ensuring that they have access to them.

 

[inCloud]

can just kill 30,000 people by mistake

No. Without intention of killing this specific people? Yes

Do you honestly think that Israel would allow Gaza to produce it's own or obtain it from another source

I don't see why they don't.

it is entirely intentional, and both sides in the conflict between Hamas/Iran and Israel are responsible.

1.There isn't intention to wipe out specific group of people, its not genocide.
2. Sure, both sides responsible for what happens.

 

[Scaff]

I don't see why they don't.

Because it's about control, and the point of fact is that they don't allow them to do so and haven't for decades.

As such withholding it is collective punishment.

There isn't intention to wipe out specific group of people, its not genocide.

Calls from Israel for exactly that are a matter of record.

’Erase Gaza’: How genocidal rhetoric is normalised in Israel

In-depth: Incendiary language of extermination, ethnic cleansing, and the wholesale destruction of Gaza, including with nuclear weapons, has become part of mainstream discourse in Israel during the war.

www.newarab.com

 

[Joey D]

View attachment 1342766

Right on schedule.

Israeli general says strike on World Central Kitchen team was a "mistake that followed a misidentification"

An Israeli airstrike has killed at least seven aid workers from a team delivering food to civilians in Gaza, according to nonprofit World Central Kitchen and authorities in the enclave.

www.cnn.com

 

[UKMikey]

Step 5.