JGTC Exhibition Week 1: High Speed Ring*Results*

[J-PaP]

lol definitely not ok.

I think the only place the 4 wheels off the track may be a grey area is when going through the tunnel. But if you get all 4 wheels off there you probably will hit the barrier and lose speed anyway.

 

[SiNiST3R]

lol definitely not ok.

I think the only place the 4 wheels off the track may be a grey area is when going through the tunnel. But if you get all 4 wheels off there you probably will hit the barrier and lose speed anyway.

I didn't think so.

Does anybody else think those pics are a legit run?

See why we need some sort of way to confirm races...

@ gz

How do you tell if Active Steering is on?

 

[psp88]

lol

it's good having the exhibition races to iron thing up for the actual series.
whatever Justin decides on is fine by me.

 

[SiNiST3R]

lol

it's good having the exhibition races to iron thing up for the actual series

Defiantly!

 

[Lion-Face]

I think that the qualy run must be 100% clean. The race, I think running off the road once or twice is acceptable, running wide I mean, cutting corners is a no.

The gray areas would be what is defined as track and what isn't. Like Autumn Ring at the moment, there are 2 parts of the track, the first where Autumn Ring Mini runs off the main track, you can use that part of the tarmac for a faster line through the left hander following. And at the top of the long left corner over the bridge, running wide and using the extra bit of tarmac over the bridge.

Should gray areas be highlighted here first, and then a decision is made on what is ok/not ok? Or should we all stick between the white lines that clearly define the track, no exceptions?

 

[SiNiST3R]

If 4 of my wheels go off the track, I hit restart. its not legit, 2 wheels on the track at all times. This is what a regular online racing rule is (I wont even keep a 20lap race if 2 of my wheels go off more then once). Maybe if PUSHED off the track by aggressive AI could be an exception. But taking the corner flat out and drifting off into the grass should be a no no, especially not 5 or 6 times during a race, & for a podium finish.

Another exception could be for people finishing outside of the point system, but when it comes to grabbing those series points, they should go to the people who run legit races. The point of a 20 lap race is its harder to keep the fast pace up for more then a few laps, letting a grass ride every few laps go by is just absurd.

Using your brakes to keep inside the track unfortunately slows you down and hurts your time. It Blows, but you see the grass coming and its a choice you make, get off throttle and into the brakes or do I try to hold it flat out. Keeping flat out and using the grass to coast back onto the track keeps your speed up and kills a legitimate time.

While sometimes the "Track" lines can be fudged and a wider angle can be used. Getting all 4 wheels into the grass and full throttle gliding back onto the track is something else.

 

[Lion-Face]

Another exception could be for people finishing outside of the point system, but when it comes to grabbing those series points, they should go to the people who run legit races. The point of a 20 lap race is its harder to keep the fast pace up for more then a few laps, letting a grass ride every few laps go by is just absurd.

Using your brakes to keep inside the track unfortunately slows you down and hurts your time. It Blows, but you see the grass coming and its a choice you make, get off throttle and into the brakes or do I try to hold it flat out. Keeping flat out and using the grass to coast back onto the track keeps your speed up and kills a legitimate time.

While sometimes the "Track" lines can be fudged and a wider angle can be used. Getting all 4 wheels into the grass and full throttle gliding back onto the track is something else.

I disagree with that, as your race isn't over in real championships if you go off the track and rejoin. You will be penalized if you do so multiple times and I agree with that. But running wide once a race I would let slide. If your keeping full throttle and hitting the grass, your losing more time than taking that corner cleanly in the first place, hence why it doesn't bother me. Often braking/lifting off the throttle will give you a better speed anyway, based on those pics you posted before, if you had kept it tidy by lifting off the throttle, you would have posted a faster lap time provided you drove the rest of the lap the same way.

 

[SiNiST3R]

I disagree with that, as your race isn't over in real championships if you go off the track and rejoin. You will be penalized if you do so multiple times and I agree with that. But running wide once a race I would let slide. If your keeping full throttle and hitting the grass, your losing more time than taking that corner cleanly in the first place, hence why it doesn't bother me. Often braking/lifting off the throttle will give you a better speed anyway, based on those pics you posted before, if you had kept it tidy by lifting off the throttle, you would have posted a faster lap time provided you drove the rest of the lap the same way.

Hitting the grass doesn't slow you down at all, if you pull a higher exit speed (that's what pushes you off the track understeer from overspeed) & you keep it floored coasting back onto the track you can keep up with a regular lap no prob. Letting off the gas/taping the brakes slows you down, however it keeps you on the track and the race legit. If your going too fast and under steering through the corner its up to the driver to back off the gas or hit the brakes, slowing down to keep on the track, failing to do so is driver error. Instead of taking the time hit, the cheap way out is to glide the grass, exploiting a game dynamic. This wont net you a faster time, but you wont lose time from the error. Whats the point then? If there is no penalty to driver error and 4 wheels off the track is the worst driver error of all aside from crashing, What is the point? This is poor driving and shouldn't warrant a podium finish.

I agree the one occasion, or forced out by Aggressive AI, or even for times outside the points system, can be excused, but come on...

These are NOT pics from MY replay I keep it on the track at all times. In that race (The driver knows who he is) the grass is used on many an occasion.

How many laps like this in a race should be accepted? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5? How long until it's just ridiculous? Hell that Pic is from the replay of the FASTEST posted time, and on about 5 occasions this corner is taken the same way, and doesn't kill the lap.

I'm pretty sure the whole reason for having a pre-season is for us to iron out these details. We need a general consensus. We do want people to participate and take it serious.

 

[J-PaP]

I think a 3 strike rule is acceptable. 3rd invalidates the time. But I think it should also consider the behaviour when such instances occur. Is there clearly an advantage made in such an instance? Was the action purposeful? I think if someone appears to purposely move off the track especially if that lap turns out to be the "fastest lap" then clearly the time should instantly be invalidated.

I think another way we could approach this is that a time penalty is applied for going off the track. If someone gets all 4 wheels off the track, a second is added to their total race time (or lap time). That way if someone does decide to use the grass, whether they get an advantage or not the penalty should make it a disadvantage. That should force people to be a little more careful and drive within their limits. not over them.

 

[SiNiST3R]

I think a 3 strike rule is acceptable. 3rd invalidates the time. But I think it should also consider the behaviour when such instances occur. Is there clearly an advantage made in such an instance? Was the action purposeful? I think if someone appears to purposely move off the track especially if that lap turns out to be the "fastest lap" then clearly the time should instantly be invalidated.

Getting a faster lap isn't the issue, but not taking the time hit is. (Should be slower then an average lap, and not by a few tenths)

It DOES sound interesting and worth exploring.

I counted 5 times in this replay with 4 wheels off and around 4 or 5 times with 2 wheels off all at the same place. This IS from the fastest posted time. All the time its a clear open track around the driver, the driver is clearly going too fast for the corner and unwilling to slow down to stay on the track. Lap times barely feel it,and didn't suffer more then a few tenths. Close to have the race is driven with errors, but exploiting the physics and gliding the grass keeps the Lap time fast enough to not hurt the overall time, where hitting the brakes in those occasions would of added seconds to the overall time...

I think another way we could approach this is that a time penalty is applied for going off the track. If someone gets all 4 wheels off the track, a second is added to their total race time (or lap time). That way if someone does decide to use the grass, whether they get an advantage or not the penalty should make it a disadvantage. That should force people to be a little more careful and drive within their limits. not over them.

This sound like maybe a good direction to go. It would give a penalty to driver error, If shown to be on purpose though (Like a direct short cut, Either a huge penalty or disqualification)

And the Drivers will make more effort to keep on the track as time penalties HURT.

This is a VERY good idea. 👍👍

What also needs to be explored is exactly how long the replays record for and what stops them from recording the full race. The recording time is not 13 min, Ive seen a 20 lap FULL replay at the HS Ring.

 

[psp88]

I'd say keep it very, very simple.
two wheels on track/rumble strip at all times.

strict, yes, but it makes the job of whoever is checking the laps easier.

 

[Lion-Face]

Hitting the grass doesn't slow you down at all, if you pull a higher exit speed (that's what pushes you off the track understeer from overspeed) & you keep it floored coasting back onto the track you can keep up with a regular lap no prob. Letting off the gas/taping the brakes slows you down, however it keeps you on the track and the race legit. If your going too fast and under steering through the corner its up to the driver to back off the gas or hit the brakes, slowing down to keep on the track, failing to do so is driver error. Instead of taking the time hit, the cheap way out is to glide the grass, exploiting a game dynamic. This wont net you a faster time, but you wont lose time from the error. Whats the point then? If there is no penalty to driver error and 4 wheels off the track is the worst driver error of all aside from crashing, What is the point? This is poor driving and shouldn't warrant a podium finish.

I agree the one occasion, or forced out by Aggressive AI, or even for times outside the points system, can be excused, but come on...


How many laps like this in a race should be accepted? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5? How long until it's just ridiculous? Hell that Pic is from the replay of the FASTEST posted time, and on about 5 occasions this corner is taken the same way, and doesn't kill the lap.

I'm pretty sure the whole reason for having a pre-season is for us to iron out these details. We need a general consensus. We do want people to participate and take it serious.

Every time I've been off the road, that corner as well, was an easy mistake to make while trying to get a faster time, I have been slower, coming off it, and the next corner with dirty tires you couldn't take the S bend as fast as normal. Staying on the track always provided a better time provided I drove the rest of the track the same. If his fastest lap involved him heading off the circuit, then he was making up the time elsewhere I believe.

But I see what your getting at, and if its done that many times during a race, it shouldn't count. Like I said, I'd accept once off, maybe twice....but that's it, any more and you should be starting again. What does everyone else think? Once off? No offs?

I like the idea of a time penalty, 10seconds added to race time for every off? 10 seconds is far worse than slamming on the anchors, should be more than enough to deter rally drivers in the JGTC

EDIT: I'm sorry SiNiST3R for assuming they were pictures taken from your run/replay.

Also, I just checked my replay, it gets to lap 11 when the screen fades to black and stops

I'm running on a PSPGo with more than 9gb free space.

 

[Tomtomtom]

I think another way we could approach this is that a time penalty is applied for going off the track. If someone gets all 4 wheels off the track, a second is added to their total race time (or lap time). That way if someone does decide to use the grass, whether they get an advantage or not the penalty should make it a disadvantage. That should force people to be a little more careful and drive within their limits. not over them.

I agree with that idea,maybe make it slightly higher, 4 or 5 seconds, perhaps, to deter people from doing it deliberately, but not seriously penalize those who accidentally slide off, or are shunted off by the AI.


While practicing the Autumn Ring, I slid off and cut a corner, and a red message appeared saying 'Your time will not be counted' the time went red, and was displayed in red at the top right of the screen.
I tested it a bit, and it seems that if you take a shortcut, your time is not counted.
Whilst that does not stop people having all wheels off the track to get round a corner faster, it does stop them cutting it completely.

My best Autumn Ring time so far is a 1:19.xxx.
How would I go about increasing tire grip?

 

[psp88]

You may have passed the entry to the pitlane that's why it turned red.

 

[J-PaP]

Personally I don't mind if the penalty was 30 seconds even just because I'd try and make sure any time submitted I never went off the track in the first place.

But I think a penalty of even 4-5 seconds will really hurt those who accidentally go off the track. So much so that you could take it pretty easy and win just because you kept on the track.

A 1-2 second penalty though will not hurt a person's times too much and eliminate any advantage someone doing it on purpose may get. If a person keeps doing it the penalty will add up and really hurt their time.

Maybe even an incremental penalty could be applied. 1 second for first offence, then 2 seconds then 3 seconds and so forth.

 

[tiger61378]

Ok...in terms of the time penalties, I'm all for them. However, let's take it the way that they do in the real world. The first couple of times people do that kind of stuff they get warned (or if its accidentally blowing a chicane they're expected to either come to a complete stop (NASCAR) or give up whatever positions were gained (pretty much every other series on the planet)), and after that they get black flagged & have to take a drive through penalty. Well...that's roughly 30-60 seconds on track lost, depending on the track...

So, my suggestion is that if people are clearly chopping chicanes & using the grass, the amount of time to go down pit road should be added to their time after the first, say, 2 times it happens (if its obvious that its not errors). If it happens again after the 3rd time seen, the time is disallowed (you don't get a second drive through in real life...you get parked). Should be pretty easy to figure out the time for a drive through of the pits, too...just do a lap, then pull into the pits & time it from the time the AI takes over to the time the car comes back out, and that's the penalty for that track.

 

[Broth3r]

About Autumn Ring, there's a more important thing to consider...
The double chicanes before ARmini's pit lane and the ones after the knot can be cut with all whells airbourne... What will be the ruling on that?

 

[SiNiST3R]

Every time I've been off the road, that corner as well, was an easy mistake to make while trying to get a faster time, I have been slower, coming off it, and the next corner with dirty tires you couldn't take the S bend as fast as normal. Staying on the track always provided a better time provided I drove the rest of the track the same. If his fastest lap involved him heading off the circuit, then he was making up the time elsewhere I believe.

My issue is if you average 1:10:400, and pull off a grass glide,and still pull a 1:10:600, that 0.200 is not enough of a time hurt. In that replay lap averages are around 1:10.500 & even with the trips in the grass the lap is still UNDER 1:11.000 most of the time (Remember it happened a bunch of time). That's not enough of a speed loss or impact to the time to represent the gravity of the error.

But I see what your getting at, and if its done that many times during a race, it shouldn't count. Like I said, I'd accept once off, maybe twice....but that's it, any more and you should be starting again. What does everyone else think? Once off? No offs?

In the replay in question its done to the point of ridiculousness, and getting the replay was a pain to boot, as BS excuses were given to try to dodge from actually giving it.

I like the idea of a time penalty, 10seconds added to race time for every off? 10 seconds is far worse than slamming on the anchors, should be more than enough to deter rally drivers in the JGTC

I personally don't like any grass riding, but a reasonable penalty for those who do on error like 1-2 seconds per incident I wouldn't mind. If it occurs more then 3 or 4 times (whatever is decided) The race is disqualified.

The penalty will hurt the overall time considerably, 3 times off in a 20 lap race getting a 6 second penalty will defiantly have you wanting to give it another go to race clean and get away from a 6 seconds time kill.

EDIT: I'm sorry SiNiST3R for assuming they were pictures taken from your run/replay.

Its all good Bro 👍

Also, I just checked my replay, it gets to lap 11 when the screen fades to black and stops

I'm running on a PSPGo with more than 9gb free space.

I don't know why they are cutting off.

I'm going to run a test, Ill record a replay with 0 other replays saved. then the same amount of laps on a MS full of replays.

WE need to figure out WHY the recorder stops, I'm clueless at the moment.

Maybe even an incremental penalty could be applied. 1 second for first offence, then 2 seconds then 3 seconds and so forth.

I like this idea too.

 

[tiger61378]

About Autumn Ring, there's a more important thing to consider...
The double chicanes before ARmini's pit lane and the ones after the knot can be cut with all whells airbourne... What will be the ruling on that?

I'd say treat it like a driving challenge...if you go airborne over that chicane in a
driving challenge, you fail instantly (tried that once, since that's always been the fastest line through that chicane, in every version of GT). Plus, after doing some practice laps, I discovered that you do NOT want to cut that one anyways, since it really upsets the hell out of these JGTC cars (my au Cerumo damn near took off on me, and I had to seriously get on the binders to keep from spinning...slowed the lap time by at least 2 seconds).

EDIT: BTW, I accidentally slid down onto the Autumn Ring pit lane...and it was about a 15 second trip at AI speed, although there was no stop for tires or gas (no pit crews either). So yeah, that's a MASSIVE penalty if we require "drive throughs" This race is going to be a blast, too...

 

[jaioxung]

Being that uploading and checking replays is a pain in the ass I say we give everyone the benefit of the doubt. But if a qualifying lap or race time comes in that is a 1+ seconds faster than the average of everyone else's times that replay should be checked.

**After looking at the qualifying times from the HSR race, this wouldn't work at all. How about the podium finishers in qualifying and the race submit to a "doping/replay" test.

I think the rules should be as follows:

Qualifying - two wheels on track at all times, no exceptions.

Race - penalty of 15 second for second offense if off the track with intent to cut time/track. Disqualification for third offense.

If you need to cheat at something that is for no other reason than to have fun then your just a sad person and I feel sorry for you.

On a lighter note I did some time trials for Autumn Ring in the ASL Garaiya with a best of 1'17.961. I'm still losing time in turn 1 and the final chicane but overall I'm rather pleased.

 

[tiger61378]

I just laid down a pretty awesome lap in my au Cerumo on Autumn Ring, at 1:15.668...although I may toss it, since upon watching the replay I hit one of the curbs entering the first chicane a bit harder than it looked from inside the car. I may upload a vid anyways on YouTube, though...the joys of the webcam

EDIT: Or not, damn Youtube crashed my laptop when I tried to upload :|

 

[SiNiST3R]

This is the problem....



Any 4 wheels off the track should get a time penalty.

Id like to give the benefit of the doubt, but then races like the lap I posted are put up for a podium finish. As is the lap in the video.

What could be going on is Active Steering may be in use to keep the loss of grip from the tires to a minimal, and making it easier to keep a steady pace.

 

[jaioxung]

The big problem is that we are all doing this for fun and uploading and watching replays to verify a "clean" race isn't fun.

The bare minimum for keeping things honest would be to have the podium finishers should submit replays for verification. I like the idea of incremental penalties for going off track. In the case of the replay SiNiST3R uploaded that guy would be at the bottom after running off track (4 tires off) every lap.

Of course all of this is dependent on how long the replay will actually record. I would prefer keeping races above 10 laps as consistency should be the goal here.

 

[Detroitbb]

I really enjoy the idea of assessing a time penalty for infractions (as mentioned by lion-face), but I have some reservations. First of all, let me say that extra time added to a racer would have been an awesome way to mimic the JGTC's weight handicapping system that went to top finishers to ensure parity amongst the racers throughout the season. But I think we are starting to add a bit too much complexity to a system that, ultimately, Justin will be responsible for. I feel that we need to simplify things for expediency's sake.

Two people (gz & jaioxung?) have mentioned that either the top finisher or finishers would submit a replay along with someone chosen at random. This could work, but we'd all have to save our ghost replays and our race replays. This shouldn't be an issue as the files are tiny in size, but if we'd have to save these anyways, then why don't we all just post/attach them with our pictures? It literally takes seconds to do this and then we, as a community, can self-police ourselves. Anybody could watch anybody else's replays... and this should be a powerful deterrent. If an infraction is observed, we could have Justin watch that one replay in question and he could be the final judge on it's legality (though it is doubtful that we'd need to do this). As a bonus, the racers in the bottom half of the pack would be able to watch the top racers and learn a bit from their lines, breaking points, and other driving techniques. The ancillary benefit would be to help keep interest up throughout all the skill levels, not just in the podium finishers.

I like where psp88 has been going with his suggestions... he's attempting to employ the K.I.S.S. methodology - essentially, to 'keep it simple'. He mentioned that we should have at least two tires on the track (rumble strips included) - I'm all for that. If people have the need for exceptions, we could say that being run off the course by an aggressive AI could be permissible. Also, hitting a rumble strip and having all four tires leave the ground is fine as long as you still have two tires that are over the tarmac. If you jump up over a grass patch, that wouldn't be allowed.

I'll also agree with jaioxung that I'd like to keep the races to over ten laps (give or take, depending on how long the laps are). But it is pretty important to be able to see the whole replay of a race.

So, proposals that I support include...


*Having all racers post their ghost replay and race replay when they post their pictures/times. If we have a need, we would be able to check out if we stayed on course.
***We can also check physics via the .SFO file and driving aids (both TCS/ASM) will be viewable via the replay HUD. All this we can do ourselves without the need for Justin to get involved (unless someone still decides to cheat after all that).
***Less accomplished racers would be able to learn directly through the veteran's replays by watching their lines/techniques. This would help keep everyone involved, not just those who are the fastest week in and week out.

*Keep two tires on the track (including rumble strips). The white line signifies the edge... we all understand that.
*** An exception could be made for an AI running you off the road.
***Jumping into the air would be fine if you still have two tires over the road surface. If you are completely over the grass, it is an obvious shortcut.

*Races should be long enough to show consistency over time, but not so long as the replay won't allow anyone to verify clean laps. As we've already seen in week one already, people will skirt the common-sense rules of racing - let's not make it any easier for them.

 

[tiger61378]

The issue with the replays is that not everyone is running CFW...and US and EU replays arn't compatable. Its a great idea, but not as workable as it needs to be.

 

[Detroitbb]

The issue with the replays is that not everyone is running CFW...and US and EU replays arn't compatable. Its a great idea, but not as workable as it needs to be.

We do this with the Time Attack Challenge without any issue whatsoever. We have almost a 50/50 split between North American and European versions of the game being used here. Those with UCES (European copy) can watch the same regions and likewise for the UCUS (North American) users. You don't need custom firmware to watch these or post those files. If someone wants to view a replay from another region, I'm sure someone here with RemoteJoy can take a video capture so everyone can watch (Sinister posts vids these all the time).

The thing is, if we all have to post our replay files, the chances that someone would attempt to cheat would go down significantly. We wouldn't even need to watch all the replays... only if we suspect something nefarious was afoot.

 

[tiger61378]

Ah, ok...I'm still relatively new around here, so I didn't know about those rules. And I am more than willing to post the files...or hold the PSP up to my webcam & show the video that way too. I don't have any problem whatsoever w/ showing the replays. And yeah, having to show a replay really will cut down on the cheating.

 

[SiNiST3R]

That was very well put. and a great idea.

If for no reason but to give the guys who want to learn from the faster bunch the replay to learn from, a pic of the time doesn't help much. They can race the ghost and learn quite a bit. This will increase the competition level and do nothing but good things, keeping the BS out.

 

[jaioxung]

I like Detroit's ideas. It keeps things simple and I could certainly learn a few things from the ghost laps.

 

[JToipa]

Nooo!!! I totally forgot about this!!! I feel so stupid! -.-