Just Raced Under The New Algorithms and Rules

[Sven Jurgens]

I am DR S is it 5 sec there as well ?

I assume so as I haven't heard otherwise, yet the closest I've come to DR.S is 460 points short

I really don't understand the penalty system anymore, it feels so random. Next race I start on pole as A/A driver with another A/A driver behind. We have a good clean battle, he pits early, I pit in lap 6, normal stuff. I come out of the pit, brake just before 100 while staying in the middle to the right side as a car is coming up from behind. Car behind punts me full force, I go flying and get a free reset past the chicane, no penalty, score!

The the position counter is all screwed up and I think my competitor is far behind, and take it easy. Turns out his wrongly numbered and is catching up. I only notice him when he brakes too late for T1, yet as he's about to crash into me, he ghosts and slides through me out of the way.

So why is it working in some races, yet in others you get royally screwed? Perhaps since I started as SR.A the system gives me the benefit as it does when a DR.B driver runs into a DR.A driver? I went from 69 to 83 in that race, pole, fastest lap, 1st place, 374 DR gain. There are many benefits to lower SR...

 

[Shottah072]

I assume so as I haven't heard otherwise, yet the closest I've come to DR.S is 460 points short

I really don't understand the penalty system anymore, it feels so random. Next race I start on pole as A/B driver with another A/A driver behind. We have a good clean battle, he pits early, I pit in lap 6, normal stuff. I come out of the pit, brake just before 100 while staying in the middle to the right side as a car is coming up from behind. Car behind punts me full force, I go flying and get a free reset past the chicane, no penalty, score!

The the position counter is all screwed up and I think my competitor is far behind, and take it easy. Turns out his wrongly numbered and is catching up. I only notice him when he brakes too late for T1, yet as he's about to crash into me, he ghosts and slides through me out of the way.

So why is it working in some races, yet in others you get royally screwed? Perhaps since I started as SR.B the system gives me the benefit as it does when a DR.B driver runs into a DR.A driver? I went from 69 to 83 in that race, pole, fastest lap, 1st place, 374 DR gain. There are many benefits to lower SR...

Ok thanks i'll keep that in mind. I think taking the short penaltys to the finish will be better then loosing 3-4 seconds trying to scrub off a 1 sec penalty.

I usually put a qualy lap in that will have me start top 5 in the top lobby's where there is mostly good drivers around me. So i am lucky to not run into penalty's that often. I think most of my SR reduction came from disconnects. Lowest i dropped after a day of racing is 92.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Ok thanks i'll keep that in mind. I think taking the short penaltys to the finish will be better then loosing 3-4 seconds trying to scrub off a 1 sec penalty.

I usually put a qualy lap in that will have me start top 5 in the top lobby's where there is mostly good drivers around me. So i am lucky to not run into penalty's that often. I think most of my SR reduction came from disconnects. Lowest i dropped after a day of racing is 92.

I don't usually put much effort in qualifying, and even if I do I still start in the middle in S/S to A/S rooms. How much SR you lose seems to depend on how severe the penalty is. One 10 sec penalty can almost set you back a whole SR level at A/S, and getting that 10 sec penalty seems random now. The slightest tap can already trigger it.

And what's worse, the higher the penalty, the less time you lose scrubbing it. I had a car behind me take the cheat on Monza to skip the chicane. That's about an 11 sec penalty for going straight. He scrubbed it straight away and only lost 3 seconds on me. At least it's still less efficient, yet he did steal the fastest lap with another short cut without scrubbing the penalty.

The biggest drop I've had recently was on Dragontrail GR.3 A/S room, 40 points in one race
6:40 PM Daily Race B Dragon Trail - Seaside N400 8 -40 12 -4

The rest was all clean and positive SR, didn't make up for that one dirty race though. I got pinballed around in the first lap and send off to SR.B. It can happen in an instant...

 

[Shottah072]

I don't usually put much effort in qualifying, and even if I do I still start in the middle in S/S to A/S rooms. How much SR you lose seems to depend on how severe the penalty is. One 10 sec penalty can almost set you back a whole SR level at A/S, and getting that 10 sec penalty seems random now. The slightest tap can already trigger it.

And what's worse, the higher the penalty, the less time you lose scrubbing it. I had a car behind me take the cheat on Monza to skip the chicane. That's about an 11 sec penalty for going straight. He scrubbed it straight away and only lost 3 seconds on me. At least it's still less efficient, yet he did steal the fastest lap with another short cut without scrubbing the penalty.

The biggest drop I've had recently was on Dragontrail GR.3 A/S room, 40 points in one race
6:40 PM Daily Race B Dragon Trail - Seaside N400 8 -40 12 -4

The rest was all clean and positive SR, didn't make up for that one dirty race though. I got pinballed around in the first lap and send off to SR.B. It can happen in an instant...

40 points in one race ? That does sound a bit harsh. I never really pay attention to SR cause it just sits at 99 for 99% of the time for me. I ran about 12-15 races this week and though i am not a fan of the love tap penalty's and people slowing down on track to scrub the penalty's i was still able to maintain a 99 SR without changing anything to my driving other then slowing down asap when i did get a penalty. Wich i now will only do for 5+ penalty's.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

40 points in one race ? That does sound a bit harsh. I never really pay attention to SR cause it just sits at 99 for 99% of the time for me. I ran about 12-15 races this week and though i am not a fan of the love tap penalty's and people slowing down on track to scrub the penalty's i was still able to maintain a 99 SR without changing anything to my driving other then slowing down asap when i did get a penalty. Wich i now will only do for 5+ penalty's.

Well it's definitely worse now. I was back at 99 again, yet last race, get hit in T1 lap 1, no penalty for either, the car not braking in time gets away with it. Lap 2 I get dive bombed in T1, 3 sec penalty for me, 1 sec for the car pushing me off the road, then brake checked by the same car next turn, then after serving those penalties a few laps later another car dive bombs rams me in the second chicane, 5 sec for me, 1 sec for him. 3 different cars hit me, so I get all the SR down and am back at 76 now, while only 2 of them had a red S. One still got away with blue after ramming me off the road.

Next race, 1 incident. Car tries to overtake me right before we both have to pit. He's on the inside yet still behind at turn in. He manages to tap me twice, while I'm ahead, even though I give him plenty room on the inside. I get 3 + 4 sec penalties, while he only gets 1. At the end he has a blue rating and I have a red rating. Now down to 65 SR. (-11)

This penalty system is a steaming pile of ****.

Final race. Battle with one other A/A driver. He turns into me in T1 first lap, we both get 2 sec penalty. Lap 3, same thing, he attempts to overtake on the outside and turns into me again, now I get 3 sec, he gets 1. The difference, first occasion I got out ahead, second he came out ahead. The worse off you are after contact, the greater your penalty!

I ended up winning the race as he was a fast yet sloppy driver. However now I'm down to SR.B from those 2 contacts. It's just semantics though 63 SR (-2).

Apparently I'm a dirty driver! I can't get any more on the kerbs on Monza or I'll get a shortcut penalty. If you want to go side by side, leave room for the other car, ugh.

 

[Speed8]

I dont see any race in real life penalizing the driver ahead being punted or bumped by the behind driver, why on earth PD think it is okay? Ridiculous

 

[Macboyilija]

http://community.eu.playstation.com/t5/GT-Sport/Regarding-penalty-judgements/m-p/25604944

“The penalty system will continue to be improved, so if you find judgement in certain situations that you do not find justified, it would be great if you could report it on this thread. It will be easier to evaluate when is a movie attached, so when you make a report please attack a replay movie if you can. (Please try using limited publication links on Youtube)”

Good news is that finally there has been a statement made about the penalty system. And glad to see they have no idea what they are doing really. So a lot of people here were right in that part. Mea culpa.

But to look at it in a positive way: they are asking for help from the community, so pointing them to this forum and thread seems a good idea. I know there are people at PD who are aware of this forum, but development groups can be big and separated from each other so not everybody may know of this. And it should be fairly easy for them to let someone track these topics. More movies than they can handle. Should be easy to have it all fixed soon.

Any mods from here with good contact with PD ?

@Tassie_tiger: I see you posting there but you did not mention about this forum. There are 48 pages of movies here. Has that been done in any way ? If so I would not understand the request of PD for movies in their own forum. It should not matter which forum movies are posted for them to watch. I would say the GTP community is way bigger than their ? And GTP has focus on racing games.

I think it is a missed chance: “hello PD we at GT planet have a great topic about the new penalty system with a lot of movies as you requested. Would it be possible to communicate with you directly via that forum ?”
—> something like that but with better words of course.

Of course everybody with an account there can do this, but it would be better if a mod or any already known person like Tassie_tiger would do this ? It would come stronger.

What do you guys think ?

 

[TheGeologist]

Well PD has done it. I didn't imagine it was possible yet they made the penalty system blame the victim even more. This is just ridiculous. My last race on Monza cost me 30 SR in one race from the first lap. I started the race in 6th.

First T1, someone doesn't brake in time, crashes into me, I get a 10 sec penalty, he gets 1 second....

Second, car behind on the outside steers into me, we both get 2 sec penalty, that's pretty basic.

Ascari, car behind dive bombs me and causes me to tap the car in front of me.

I get +5 sec from contact with car behind, he gets 1 sec, plus I get 10 sec from tapping the car in front...
Result start in last basically and downgraded to SR.A after the race, from 99 to 69.

Here's the full first lap

I managed to finish 9th in an otherwise clean race, except for one early braker. Yet no SR Down or penalty for tapping him and he didn't even miss the apex. Maybe he was trying to reduce a penalty before the corner by braking a bit sooner.

Monza was nice early evening, now it has gone to **** again. Next race disconnected at waiting for other players, hence my post here waiting another half hour to start restoring my SR. At least it disconnected early enough not to cost me more SR and DR....

Bravo PD, well done!

Hey, report the issues with the penalty system here, a dev posted this topic, and they want feedback. Be descriptive as you can

http://community.eu.playstation.com/t5/GT-Sport/Regarding-penalty-judgements/m-p/25604944

 

[Macboyilija]

And what about my suggestion ? Doesn’t that make more sense ?

 

[ASH32]

I dont see any race in real life penalizing the driver ahead being punted or bumped by the behind driver, why on earth PD think it is okay? Ridiculous

Well you can blame the idiots who brake check for this, PD is trying (albeit failing) to stop this from being a thing, so I sort of understand why they do it, even if it then ends up wrongly penalizing players.

What's far worse is the fact that higher rated drivers get more penalties from any contact, this is just a bizarre decision and indefensible, I'm mean imagine this in football or something, any foul by Ronaldo or Messi is an instant red card but some crap dirty player has to commit five similar fouls to even get a yellow.

Equal penalties for all drivers doing the same wrong thing would be a massive start, even when the game gets it wrong.

 

[BSDShoes]

Yeah no thanks... seems PD doesn't know what they're doing. iRacing isn't even this bad on penalizing, sheesh.

Well you can blame the idiots who brake check for this

Is that really the reason? I almost never see brake checkers in GTS, I did it once to shove off an idiotic driver that took me out twice though. The amount of rammers has to be 20 times the number of break checkers.

 

[ASH32]

Is that really the reason? I almost never see brake checkers in GTS, I did it once to shove off an idiotic driver that took me out twice though. The amount of rammers has to be 20 times the number of break checkers.

It likely is, can't think of any other reason but it's not working in any case. The reason it has to exist in some form is if you knew as the car in front you could never get a penalty if hit from behind, you could do it constantly if you so choose and cause utter chaos, of course you'd have to be fast enough to start at the front first. In a real race someone doing this would be booted from racing forever but how can a game replicate that without some sort of video review banning system, that's the only way and clearly too much of a hassle for them so we are left with this poor system which can never work as well.

There are actually a few brake checkers about now if you end up in midfield too, especially now when they have penalties to serve otherwise they go up, they don't go off the racing line they just wait until you are right behind them a bit down the straight and then slam on giving you almost no time to avoid them and usually a penalty greater than theirs. So again the penalty system is actually creating a problem that almost didn't exist before.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

http://community.eu.playstation.com/t5/GT-Sport/Regarding-penalty-judgements/m-p/25604944

“The penalty system will continue to be improved, so if you find judgement in certain situations that you do not find justified, it would be great if you could report it on this thread. It will be easier to evaluate when is a movie attached, so when you make a report please attack a replay movie if you can. (Please try using limited publication links on Youtube)”

Good news is that finally there has been a statement made about the penalty system. And glad to see they have no idea what they are doing really. So a lot of people here were right in that part. Mea culpa.

But to look at it in a positive way: they are asking for help from the community, so pointing them to this forum and thread seems a good idea. I know there are people at PD who are aware of this forum, but development groups can be big and separated from each other so not everybody may know of this. And it should be fairly easy for them to let someone track these topics. More movies than they can handle. Should be easy to have it all fixed soon.

Any mods from here with good contact with PD ?

@Tassie_tiger: I see you posting there but you did not mention about this forum. There are 48 pages of movies here. Has that been done in any way ? If so I would not understand the request of PD for movies in their own forum. It should not matter which forum movies are posted for them to watch. I would say the GTP community is way bigger than their ? And GTP has focus on racing games.

I think it is a missed chance: “hello PD we at GT planet have a great topic about the new penalty system with a lot of movies as you requested. Would it be possible to communicate with you directly via that forum ?”
—> something like that but with better words of course.

Of course everybody with an account there can do this, but it would be better if a mod or any already known person like Tassie_tiger would do this ? It would come stronger.

What do you guys think ?

I post there because I have done so for many, many years, have 10 times the number of posts there, and hold MVP status in the community.
It is my GT forum home.

Having developers from PD posting on the official SONY forums has been in the pipeline for some time and it's fantastic to see it finally coming together, for all players.
And considering the "Forums" button on gran-turismo.com links you to (country orientated) official SONY forums, it isn't surprising that's the direction they've taken.
(I don't know if they have future plans to expand into other GT sites)

All anyone needs is a PSN_Id to sign up.
Something I'm sure most of us have.
Posting on multiple forums isn't exactly against the rules, so feel free to join in on the conversation there.


And rest assured, PD and SONY reps. involved in GT are well aware of this site.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

There are actually a few brake checkers about now if you end up in midfield too, especially now when they have penalties to serve otherwise they go up, they don't go off the racing line they just wait until you are right behind them a bit down the straight and then slam on giving you almost no time to avoid them and usually a penalty greater than theirs. So again the penalty system is actually creating a problem that almost didn't exist before.

I can confirm. Every night this week I've had drivers try and pull the brake check trick on me. It's usually a lead driver who aggressively slams the door on overlapped drivers trying to overtake them. Literally no respect for sharing the track. Then they wait for the behind driver to draft and they perform the brake check to scrub their penalty and pass it off to the drafting driver.

 

[Speed8]

I see it must be that reason then why they are penalizing then, Like imagine being S/A dr and behind a C/D dr and wanted to overtake, he can just do brake checking and take advantage of that. I can understand that those deserve penalty, but in what other way can they detect the brake checkers? because it is lose-lose situation for the fast and clean drivers..

 

[novcze]

So, I raced under new algorithms and rules today, first Sport race since new rules, prepared for the worse and yes, first lap first chicane at Monza, got bumped from behind by guy who massively missed the braking point, I got 13 seconds penalty and big SR hit, throughout the race I was able to get to 4th place which is better than I started (5th). Thanks to SR drop to 87, next race with RedBull Junior wasn't with the fastest EU guys and I was able to win, of course after that my SR went to 99 again and I got two guys from EU top 10 in the next race, so back to usual 3rd - 5th place. And of course starting further in the field yields more penalty and more scrubbing in unusual places because you have to scrub it immediately. Then I had problems with the wheel and in-game sound, so that was an end.

 

[llNovall]

My suggestion is to run back your replay and video capture a clip of the faulty occurances and share the clip to YouTube. Then copy the link and place it in this forum: http://community.eu.playstation.com/t5/GT-Sport/Regarding-penalty-judgements/m-p/25604944
Hopefully with enough bombardment of videos showing wrongful penalties PD might adjust sooner than later.

As for my take on an applied penalty system, rather than force an immediate penalty, display a penalty window showing accrued penalty time that will be added to your total race time and place you accordingly. As you race sector to sector, every clean Sr sector you clear will be a 0:025 second reduction in penalty time. In essence, if you have a small penalty or 2 due to incidental contact, with clean racing through the remaining race, you could essentially scrub the penalty all together. Continue to race dirty, penalty is added and you take your place at the back. Either way, the burden of fault needs to be changed or adjusted to be applied to offending drivers, not the victim. Also, penalizing the higher ranked driver is garbage. They achieved that rank by being clean and holding to a certain standard to race clean and are less likely to make the mistakes of lower ranked drivers. The penalties should be the same across the board for all ranks. Here is to hoping that PD hears our complaints. The system was working fine, and I was having some amazing races at all points on the grid. Now, I question day to day whether I want to deal with the frustration of trying to race through this penalty system. It's no longer "racing", it is now" who can avoid the most amount of mistakes to the finish"

 

[Macboyilija]

I post there because I have done so for many, many years, have 10 times the number of posts there, and hold MVP status in the community.
It is my GT forum home.

Having developers from PD posting on the official SONY forums has been in the pipeline for some time and it's fantastic to see it finally coming together, for all players.
And considering the "Forums" button on gran-turismo.com links you to (country orientated) official SONY forums, it isn't surprising that's the direction they've taken.
(I don't know if they have future plans to expand into other GT sites)

All anyone needs is a PSN_Id to sign up.
Something I'm sure most of us have.
Posting on multiple forums isn't exactly against the rules, so feel free to join in on the conversation there.


And rest assured, PD and SONY reps. involved in GT are well aware of this site.

Thanks for clarifying this. As you can see I am pretty new here. I did know PD know about this forum. But not to what extend of course. Nice to have people like you here !

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Hey, report the issues with the penalty system here, a dev posted this topic, and they want feedback. Be descriptive as you can

http://community.eu.playstation.com/t5/GT-Sport/Regarding-penalty-judgements/m-p/25604944

I made a full compilation of all the incidents I had recently regarding penalties. I always save the video of races nowadays, just a lot to sift through as I raced a lot on Monza yesterday.



I'm not perfect and in some cases I have some blame as well, yet most of these are just nonsense. I posted it on that ps forum

 

[meck_rb7]

I made a full compilation of all the incidents I had recently regarding penalties. I always save the video of races nowadays, just a lot to sift through as I raced a lot on Monza yesterday.



I'm not perfect and in some cases I have some blame as well, yet most of these are just nonsense. I posted it on that ps forum

The penalty system is absolutely ridicolous!

 

[coryclifford]

It would help if you stay in the pit exit lane and not cross the white line before it ends. A bunch of other incidents look like an over ambitious driver.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

It would help if you stay in the pit exit lane and not cross the white line before it ends. A bunch of other incidents look like an over ambitious driver.

I'll just post the reply I put on the ps forum

Look again and read. No control over steering coming out of the pit merged with another car. I was steering right at the time, yet we were both forced into the wall. There was also no penalty issued there and no other traffic apart from the two of us emerging from the pit fused.

Second time where I came out of the pit the car behind me was far enough behind to set me up for the corner. I was braking at the correct time, the car behind made no attempt to brake nor move over to the left. If I had stayed all the way right I would have been unnecessarily slow through the chicane creating a problem for the car behind.

Yet if you want me to make a reel of the other 10 times I came out of the pit and stayed on the right side for traffic, I can...

Over ambitious? lol.

My suggestion is to run back your replay and video capture a clip of the faulty occurances and share the clip to YouTube. Then copy the link and place it in this forum: http://community.eu.playstation.com/t5/GT-Sport/Regarding-penalty-judgements/m-p/25604944
Hopefully with enough bombardment of videos showing wrongful penalties PD might adjust sooner than later.

As for my take on an applied penalty system, rather than force an immediate penalty, display a penalty window showing accrued penalty time that will be added to your total race time and place you accordingly. As you race sector to sector, every clean Sr sector you clear will be a 0:025 second reduction in penalty time. In essence, if you have a small penalty or 2 due to incidental contact, with clean racing through the remaining race, you could essentially scrub the penalty all together. Continue to race dirty, penalty is added and you take your place at the back. Either way, the burden of fault needs to be changed or adjusted to be applied to offending drivers, not the victim. Also, penalizing the higher ranked driver is garbage. They achieved that rank by being clean and holding to a certain standard to race clean and are less likely to make the mistakes of lower ranked drivers. The penalties should be the same across the board for all ranks. Here is to hoping that PD hears our complaints. The system was working fine, and I was having some amazing races at all points on the grid. Now, I question day to day whether I want to deal with the frustration of trying to race through this penalty system. It's no longer "racing", it is now" who can avoid the most amount of mistakes to the finish"

Indeed. The best tactic atm when behind another car is to move over and let the next car pass. Watch him bump into the first car and pass them both while they're serving penalties. It works best with a South American behind you. I make up about 7 places on average in the daily b by basically letting cars pass. I wish I was joking.

 

[Dose555]

I hate complaining, but here I go..... Frustrated with the game right now. This isn't racing anymore. Even the slightest bump/rub seems to result in a penalty of some sort. DR/SR: S players are scarce in daily races. There's too much to lose, and having to slow down because of this nonsense can sacrifice hundreds or even thousands of DR points (in addition to SR) in a single race.

I'm finding the penalties themselves are not only causing us to slow down, but trying to simply avoid getting one is almost as bad. I've been in quite a few battles with another driver where one of us will attempt a pass, we both slow down, and it turns into a, "you go," "no you go," "no you go" situation because we're so worried about touching each other. Also, I feel now I'm giving up more positions in races. Other drivers often take poor lines and I worry about defending my line and touching them and getting a penalty, so I let them pass.

I raced 3 (maybe 4) races tonight (race B) . Finished 1st, 3rd, and 12ish (because of penalties). The 12th place race, started 2nd, barely touched the leader and got popped for 5 seconds. Slowing down put me in the chaotic middle of the pack, resulting in more penalties or slowing down trying to avoid them. That 5 second penalty was so minor my SR only went from 99 to 96, yet the penalty completely ruined the race and I lost 1400ish DR. I'm a super clean driver to begin with, I've been SR:S almost 100 consecutive days. It's not much fun anymore. /endrant

 

[BSDShoes]

I made a full compilation of all the incidents I had recently regarding penalties. I always save the video of races nowadays, just a lot to sift through as I raced a lot on Monza yesterday.



I'm not perfect and in some cases I have some blame as well, yet most of these are just nonsense. I posted it on that ps forum

honestly I have to say the quality of drivers has gone downhill, there is a lot of straight up garbage driving in that video.

 

[Wasino87]

we both slow down, and it turns into a, "you go," "no you go," "no you go" situation

That's exactly what i expectet from these ridiculous penalties, when two clean drivers meet each other
Didnt't want to play sportsmode yesterday because i'm so frustrated.
This game just makes absolutely no sense to me anymore...

 

[kevlar_hybrid]

I made a full compilation of all the incidents I had recently regarding penalties. I always save the video of races nowadays, just a lot to sift through as I raced a lot on Monza yesterday.



I'm not perfect and in some cases I have some blame as well, yet most of these are just nonsense. I posted it on that ps forum

It really, REALLY doesn't need for us to compile videos of the transgressions and shear stupidity f the system.
It's so bad, and so OBVIOUS that literally ANY member of PD staff can pick up the release game and play ANY of the Daily races and experience what is wrong with it first hand.

 

[Mr616]

honestly I have to say the quality of drivers has gone downhill, there is a lot of straight up garbage driving in that video.

No penalty system can sort out garbage like that (apart from that awful pit exit ghosting/collision). Woeful driving standards.

 

[dudejustsmokeit]

Seriously WTF! Haven’t raced since the new update Boy can PD **** this up anymore Every update it gets worse and worse wether it be the penalties or the way they change the handling characteristics Tried race C at Brands Hatch what a joke somehow I’m 2-3 seconds slower than normal and it feels like your racing on an oiled down greasy track Try an avoid Not hitting someone is almost impossible. About to just shelve the game no matter how much I love it

 

[AverageRacer]

The penalties are out of control, just got a 10 sec for a slight bump in someone's rear, he didn't spin or anything. That's at SR B. Give me the original penalty system over this garbage.

 

[simsimsheree]

It is possible that, if PD have ANY system for determining the difference between a late brake ram and a brake check, it might be tied to a pre-determined 'point of no return' line that determines where the last line that a car can brake for a turn and make the corner is.

Personally, I am not convinced PD has a system like that, but let's pretend they do...

The main problem would be, this point RADICALLY moves back on L1 while the pack is bunched up. You simply cannot hammer round T1 at the same pace with an accordioned pack around you as you can when you are well spaced from the car in front. I think this may account for the puzzling massively greater penalty for the car being rammed than the rammer. The game may well assume that the needed earlier brake point while the pack is bunched up is actually a huge brake check on the car behind.

Thoughts?