Kazunori Yamauchi Responds to Gran Turismo 7 Fan Outrage

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I am stepping out of reading not posting to say that a comparison between GTS and GT7 economy wise is not fair to anyone, players or developer. GTS was focused on online e-sport and the economy was meant to make it possible for everyone to quickly be able to race any race at any time.
And that's why I much preferred GT Sport. I wasn't gated by what cars I hadn't grinded for yet. If I wanted to race online, or do a one-make race with some friends in a lobby, it wasn't a big deal. I either already had the car, or could easily buy the car with in-game credits.

It seems like there's a deep schism between some old school players who insist that grinding is part of the GT "experience" and demand that it be there, and then another group who just want to drive and race a wide variety of cars without a lot of fuss.
 
589
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Stockholm
I like how you will not answer a very simple question because of some lame excuse, but have no problem throwing mud at anyone who disagrees with you. Pretty sad.
If you read all of my posts since the 'hot take' one I posted yesterday, and the replies I've gotten, it's demonstrably not true that I am throwing mud at anyone who disagrees with me. I also disagree that what I am doing even constitutes "throwing mud", as to me that term implies personal attacks and logical fallacies, rather than simply not agreeing with the other person.

Unless of course disagreeing falls under the umbrella of things that are implicitly not allowed by the AUP but which I have no reasonable way of knowing until my post is edited by a moderator without so much as a notice of why.
 
570
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Australia
People are irrationally upset all the time, gamers even more so. I suspect there would be a sizeable contingent of people who would be as upset with the economy of the game if the difference was as large but in the other direction, just because it was different. Sometimes people are more upset about changes themselves rather than the details of the changes.

I think it's important to distinguish the economy, which includes everything from how fast you earn in game currency to how much things cost and how many things you can spend that currency on, from income rates alone. I never said GT7 had higher income rates than any other title, it clearly doesn't. I said GT7 had a better economy than GT Sport meaning the sum total of everything.

I am also not including any other GT title than those two in this comparison, because I didn't play 5 or 6 and it was almost 20 years ago that I played GT4 so I honestly can't remember what it was like. It's possible or even likely that their economies were better than GT7.
If you're comparing GT7's economy to GT Sport, I prefer GT Sport. GT7 is straight up a greedy MTX mess.
I am stepping out of reading not posting to say that a comparison between GTS and GT7 economy wise is not fair to anyone, players or developer. GTS was focused on online e-sport and the economy was meant to make it possible for everyone to quickly be able to race any race at any time.
GT7 is a single player focused game where the economy is geared towards that.
I don't think it matters if it's fair to compare them or not. Fact is the economy has been getting worse in GT Games. GT5 started a trend with locking cars based on player level, which I actually didn't mind the idea itself if it was implemented better but that game is grindy, GT6 was almost too easy when seasonals and quick match was alive, loved that economy personally, Sport became a chore and GT7 is godawful in damn near every aspect of the economy.
 
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589
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If you're comparing GT7's economy to GT Sport, I prefer GT Sport. GT7 is straight up a greedy MTX mess.
Obviously I'm not trying to tell anyone what they should prefer, but I don't agree with the assessment of GT7 being a greedy MTX mess. There's certainly elements of pushing MTX on us, and I'd much rather have a game entirely without MTX, but I don't share the opinion that the game is designed around forcing/guiding us into buying MTX to keep progressing. I don't think that's the case currently, and from what PD has told us it seems they intend to improve things even further in coming updates.
 
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Obviously I'm not trying to tell anyone what they should prefer, but I don't agree with the assessment of GT7 being a greedy MTX mess. There's certainly elements of pushing MTX on us, and I'd much rather have a game entirely without MTX, but I don't share the opinion that the game is designed around forcing/guiding us into buying MTX to keep progressing. I don't think that's the case currently, and from what PD has told us it seems they intend to improve things even further in coming updates.
I've got to ask what gives you the impression that PD/ Sony care about the fans now more than they have in the last decade or so? and are not simply forcing the MTX in GT7? I don't see at all how you can come to the logical conclusion you have.
 
589
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Stockholm
I've got to ask what gives you the impression that PD/ Sony care about the fans now more than they have in the last decade or so? and are not simply forcing the MTX in GT7? I don't see at all how you can come to the logical conclusion you have.
Firstly I don't think Sony cares too much about the fans of any one game more than any other, except for how much money the fans make them. Secondly I think PD, and Kaz in particular, cares about the game they're making as much or even more than they care about the fans. People don't just put games like this out for the fans or for making money, they do it because they want to. If all they cared about was making money they'd make terrible mobile games, or work for EA and pump out a sports franchise title every year. And if all they cared about was the fans they'd make free games and use some form of donation/voluntary subscription service.

GT Sport also had MTX, a point which I think gets swept under the rug a lot in these threads, so it's not like GT7 appeared and made MTX a thing. They expanded it a little bit from GT Sport but not by a whole lot. So I don't think how much PD/Sony cares about fans is relevant when talking about the existence of MTX in GT7.

And lastly I think there's absolutely been discussions behind the scenes on how to shape the game to promote MTX, it happens in any game that has MTX, but I disagree that the entire economy is broken* or designed around forcing us into using MTX. Payouts being lowered doesn't mean the economy is broken.



* I posted a few comments back my definition of a broken vs. functioning economy.
 
2,219
United States
Tennessee
NoStopN
GT7 is a live service always online game per the developer.

- with an blatently obvious economy geared toward mtx.
Nobody has to play PD's game & use MTXs. I'm not. The MTX route is not a wholly owned idea from PD. EA has been doing it for years with their Time Savers packs in Need For Speed titles. Whether you want to own certain/all cars now or progress at your own pace, that was up to you.
And that's why I much preferred GT Sport. I wasn't gated by what cars I hadn't grinded for yet. If I wanted to race online, or do a one-make race with some friends in a lobby, it wasn't a big deal. I either already had the car, or could easily buy the car with in-game credits.

It seems like there's a deep schism between some old school players who insist that grinding is part of the GT "experience" and demand that it be there, and then another group who just want to drive and race a wide variety of cars without a lot of fuss.
It's possible that GT Sport was so good in giving players credits, mileage points, & cars quicker than most GT titles. Maybe we got spoiled a little. But, I have never felt compelled to collect every car in any GT game. I get what I want & keep playing. Other people have different automotive likes & want certain cars sooner. I admit, the time sensitive basis of the UCD & LD have people feeling a case of FOMO, but those cars will come back around.
 
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Firstly I don't think Sony cares too much about the fans of any one game more than any other, except for how much money the fans make them. Secondly I think PD, and Kaz in particular, cares about the game they're making as much or even more than they care about the fans. People don't just put games like this out for the fans or for making money, they do it because they want to. If all they cared about was making money they'd make terrible mobile games, or work for EA and pump out a sports franchise title every year. And if all they cared about was the fans they'd make free games and use some form of donation/voluntary subscription service.

GT Sport also had MTX, a point which I think gets swept under the rug a lot in these threads, so it's not like GT7 appeared and made MTX a thing. They expanded it a little bit from GT Sport but not by a whole lot. So I don't think how much PD/Sony cares about fans is relevant when talking about the existence of MTX in GT7.

And lastly I think there's absolutely been discussions behind the scenes on how to shape the game to promote MTX, it happens in any game that has MTX, but I disagree that the entire economy is broken* or designed around forcing us into using MTX. Payouts being lowered doesn't mean the economy is broken.



* I posted a few comments back my definition of a broken vs. functioning economy.
I believe the economy is broken for the players that were expecting GT7 to be a "return to form" For them it is broken.

I think it's a good guess however that Kaz isn't really paying attention to anyone outside of his bubble. He needs to if he wants to keep making Gran Turismo games anywho, but he's busy doing what Kaz does :lol:
 
669
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It's possible that GT Sport was so good in giving players credits, mileage points, & cars quicker than most GT titles. Maybe we got spoiled a little. But, I have never felt compelled to collect every car in any GT game. I get what I want & keep playing. Other people have different automotive likes & want certain cars sooner. I admit, the time sensitive basis of the UCD & LD have people feeling a case of FOMO, but those cars will come back around.
The main cause of GTS's streamlined car collection is simply because it gave you a car every day for driving a few laps. That also allows you to save your credits for the cars you really want/need. In contrast, I've never won a car from GT7's roulette. In fact 99% of the time I've won the lowest reward, the 5000 credits.

Yeah I do like collecting and driving all the cars in GT. Each one has a unique personality. But when we're talking about racing in Sport mode, there's also a pragmatic reason to want a lot of cars available quickly.
 

KJF

91
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
It's really quite simple. The GT7 economy gates the majority of the game from those who can not, or will not mindlessly grind. That is undeniable. The game is fundamentally designed in a way which will leave many players with a hollow experience (and a 100% credit increase might not be enough to save this), this is the case with any F2P game.

If anyone enjoys this then great, but it looks a bit stupid coming into this thread trying to defend it in any way.
 
1,860
KJF
It's really quite simple. The GT7 economy gates the majority of the game from those who can not, or will not mindlessly grind. That is undeniable. The game is fundamentally designed in a way which will leave many players with a hollow experience (and a 100% credit increase might not be enough to save this), this is the case with any F2P game.

If anyone enjoys this then great, but it looks a bit stupid coming into this thread trying to defend it in any way.
And that is like, your opinion man..

It's only gated if you don't want to play the game and drive cars but then the game is fundamentally not something for you. Even with added events and more balanced payout you will have to drive cars to earn credits. And those 20 million cr cars won't come to you without driving cars around tracks for hours.
 

Dave A

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And that is like, your opinion man..

It's only gated if you don't want to play the game and drive cars but then the game is fundamentally not something for you. Even with added events and more balanced payout you will have to drive cars to earn credits. And those 20 million cr cars won't come to you without driving cars around tracks for hours.
And this post right here represents one of the biggest problems with this discussion, completely twisting the opposite side of the argument, either wilfully or out of ignorance.

No one is saying they don't want to drive the cars or play the game, no one is saying it shouldnt take a bit of time to afford the most expensive cars, they're saying it takes too long without the use of MTX's.

Forget future updates which may or may not sufficiently change the economy and volume of content, they didn't come with the game at launch and haven't arrived yet, so ignoring those, what is a reasonable amount of time to afford every car in the game to you?

Try not to misquote as well me while you're at it, ta.
 
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Scaff

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GT Sport also had MTX, a point which I think gets swept under the rug a lot in these threads, so it's not like GT7 appeared and made MTX a thing. They expanded it a little bit from GT Sport but not by a whole lot. So I don't think how much PD/Sony cares about fans is relevant when talking about the existence of MTX in GT7.
It's not been swept under the rug at all, references back to MTX in both GTS and GT6 have been made numerous times and also appear in numerous videos talking about MTXs. Nor have they been expanded a little bit from GTS, a circa 40x increase in real cost, and the addition of the ability to buy cars that you couldn't via MTX in GTS, for hundreds of £/$/E/Etc, isn't a small increase.


And lastly I think there's absolutely been discussions behind the scenes on how to shape the game to promote MTX, it happens in any game that has MTX, but I disagree that the entire economy is broken* or designed around forcing us into using MTX. Payouts being lowered doesn't mean the economy is broken.
It made it harder to earn money, and therefore increased the grind to obtain the game content, and not by a small amount, the update that did it made GT7 the worst earning GT title ever in that regard.
* I posted a few comments back my definition of a broken vs. functioning economy.

While we don't yet know the full cost of all cars in GT7, the total value of those that we do know is circa Cr.312 Million, the missing ones are also all UCD and Legendary cars, and as such will push the total up by millions. Now GT Cafe, Missions, etc. do give you a good number of cars via playthrough, but the total of these is less than a single one of the high-value cars, so taking the Cr.312 Million is a more than a fair compromise.

Currently grinding will earn you circa Cr.900,000 per hour, and gameplay at best circa Cr.200,000 per hour.

So to complete the car collection, keep in mind this will be longer if you buy upgrades, want more than one of a certain car (one to mod, one to keep stock, etc.) it will take:

Grind: 360 hours
Gameplay: 1,733 hours

If you average playing every day for an hour that's either a year of grinding the exact same race, every single day of the year, or it's 4.75 years of gameplay (oh and gameplay here rules out Custom races or Sport mode, as both pay out too little to meet the Cr200k per hour).

Remember that's without duplicating cars, without buying a single upgrade part, and you have to make sure you have enough banked to be able to afford the cars for the limited time some of them appear in the UCD and Legendary Cars dealership.

That is not a functioning economy, grind and gameplay being that out of balance is demonstration enough of that.
 
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KJF

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And that is like, your opinion man..

It's only gated if you don't want to play the game and drive cars but then the game is fundamentally not something for you. Even with added events and more balanced payout you will have to drive cars to earn credits. And those 20 million cr cars won't come to you without driving cars around tracks for hours.
It's not just my opinion though. The game in it's current form is gated in a way that is unobtainable for many players. There simply just isn't enough hours in the day for them to play it, unlock cars, mod and tune them within a reasonable time frame.

Saying the game 'just isn't for me' isn't true. I'm enjoying the game because I abused the AFK remote play grinding script. I now have plenty of cars to enjoy.

For any player unable or unwilling to do that however they're sort of ****ed. Waiting around until PD hopefully drop the patch soon and praying it improves things to a degree that makes the game playable for them.
 
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589
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@Scaff the original version of your latest post is why I am not engaging with you specifically in this thread, and will continue to not engage with you until I feel safe to do so.

And this post right here represents one of the biggest problems with this discussion, completely twisting the opposite side of the argument, either wilfully or out of ignorance.

No one is saying they don't want to drive the cars or play the game, no one is saying it shouldnt take a bit of time to afford the most expensive cars, they're saying it takes too long without the use of MTX's.

Forget future updates which may or may not sufficiently change the economy and volume of content, they didn't come with the game at launch and haven't arrived yet, so ignoring those, what is a reasonable amount of time to afford every car in the game to you?

Try not to misquote as well me while you're at it, ta.
Things have calmed down significantly now a month into the game, but there have absolutely been people saying literally that having paid for the game they should be able to access all of its content immediately or with very little time investment. It's hard to keep track of all of the names in these fast moving threads, so it might have been a very vocal minority advocating that position, but it is (has been?) there for sure. This isn't to say that everyone who dislikes the economy thinks like that, far from it, but it's also not no one.
 

KJF

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United Kingdom
There is absolutely no reason why a player should not be able to access all of the content in a RACING GAME immediately. Non whatsoever.

Cheat codes and casual modes exist/exsisted in multiplayer games for players who cannot invest time to unlock content and just want to play with friends. That's a seperate argument that expands well beyond "players just wanting everything now" however.
 
589
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Stockholm
That you have invented a reason to not answer resonable questions doesn't preclude me from replying to your posts.
Is it really invented though? And I would like to point out that I, unlike other people in this thread, have made no attempt of stopping anyone else from replying to me. I am simply doing you the courtesy of informing you why I am continuing to not answer you on certain topics.
 
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KJF
There is absolutely no reason why a player should not be able to access all of the content in a RACING GAME immediately. Non whatsoever.

Cheat codes and casual modes exist/exsisted in multiplayer games for players who cannot invest time to unlock content and just want to play with friends. That's a seperate argument that expands well beyond "players just wanting everything now" however.
Project CARS 2 did this, everything is unlocked, no currency to buy anything, just pick a track and car/class and set up the races yourself. but it also meant that if you've never played a sim before and were expecting to "unlock/buy" things in game then the options were too many, no sense of game progression and you could get bored.
 

KJF

91
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Project CARS 2 did this, everything is unlocked, no currency to buy anything, just pick a track and car/class and set up the races yourself. but it also meant that if you've never played a sim before and were expecting to "unlock/buy" things in game then the options were too many, no sense of game progression and you could get bored.
The progression side would still be there, there would just be an option for players to use the cars in restricted 'casual' game modes.
 
23,441
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Project CARS 2 did this, everything is unlocked, no currency to buy anything, just pick a track and car/class and set up the races yourself. but it also meant that if you've never played a sim before and were expecting to "unlock/buy" things in game then the options were too many, no sense of game progression and you could get bored.
There is still progression in pCARS 2 though, you progress through the motorsport tiers. You move through from karts up to LMP/notF1. The racing is the progression, not unlocking cars/tracks.
 
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Scaff

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Is it really invented though?
Yes, and as has already been pointed out to you, should you believe any of my posts break the AUP, then use the report button.

What you will not do is continue to drag the thread off-topic.

Project CARS 2 did this, everything is unlocked, no currency to buy anything, just pick a track and car/class and set up the races yourself. but it also meant that if you've never played a sim before and were expecting to "unlock/buy" things in game then the options were too many, no sense of game progression and you could get bored.
All that's needed is to offer both, allow all the cars to be accessed (but not modified) via an arcade or free-drive mode, and combine that with a structured career with buying, selling, etc. Other alternatives include the ability to test drive cars and/or loan them for races and events at a reduced payout.

This is the approach a lot of other titles follow and it works well, addressing the needs of both sides.
 

Dave A

TreVoR fan for life
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JDA1982
Things have calmed down significantly now a month into the game, but there have absolutely been people saying literally that having paid for the game they should be able to access all of its content immediately or with very little time investment. It's hard to keep track of all of the names in these fast moving threads, so it might have been a very vocal minority advocating that position, but it is (has been?) there for sure. This isn't to say that everyone who dislikes the economy thinks like that, far from it, but it's also not no one.
The time is relative, different people will preffer different amounts of time, which is why this discussion has a large element of subjectivity to it. However, the black and white "everything should be unlocked and availalbe to drive from the start" statements I've seen tend to relate more to having an arcade mode with everything unlcoked or being able to test drive the cars etc. which aren't bad ideas.

There are racing games where you don't unlock anything, it's all one open sandbox to play in, but I don't think many people (if any) were actually expecting, or looking for that in Gran Tusimo since Gran turismo has never been about that and it's obvious Gran Turssmo 7, broken economy or not, wasn't ever going to offer that. Maybe a small minority, who aren't wrong for wanting that, they just have a different preference to both of us, and we dissagree on the timeframe needed to buy/unlock the more expensive cars.

You have to ignore possible future content, the game should have been well balanced from the start, and without any updates, by the time you played through the single player campaign you should have had enough Cr to buy what you needed at each stage including at least one of the "unicorn" cars. That's not possible, you have to grind, a lot, a hell of a lot, or pay a lot, a hell of lot in MTX's to achieve that (though the game does throw most of the cars you need at you which flys contrary to the "it's great to grind" argument). The fact it throws most of the cars you need at you, but then it's still so difficult to afford the more expensive cars highlights even more imbalance with the game really.

The prize credits in races are not balanced, the most effective Cr per minute races are not the end game races, and there are not enough actual events in the game to compete in. Add the fact you cannot sell any of the cars, which means that 18.5m Cr McLaren is worth 0Cr the moment you buy it, and you have a broken system. Sure, they are supposedly "rectifying" these things in the future at some point but there's no guarentee it won't remain broken in some way, and future updates are no excuse to release a game with a system as bad as this one.

Hopefully, future updates do fix the economy for the vast majority of players. You can argue, only a vocal minority have been heard, but that doesn't really fly. Every poll, player reivew metrics and social media platform interaction have been unanimous in their dislike of the economy in GT7. It's not a vocla minority and to claim so discounts every poll and survey conducted in history, as the alternative is to assume all of those are unreliable beucase you cannot account for every living person on the planet.
 
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Ulricehamn
don't think it matters if it's fair to compare them or not. Fact is the economy has been getting worse in GT Games. GT5 started a trend with locking cars based on player level, which I actually didn't mind the idea itself if it was implemented better but that game is grindy, GT6 was almost too easy when seasonals and quick match was alive, loved that economy personally, Sport became a chore and GT7 is godawful in damn near every aspect of the economy.
I got the game on March 12 and have done the menus, some of the missions and 2 circuit experience. I do grind.... 9 minutes a day equal 2 truck races on Daytona. So far I have spent 4 millions on cars and 9 millions on tuning parts, because I am running a time trial here and testing different cars. I also have a million on my profile now.
I am well aware that it's much harder to get credits here than in GTS but I already explained my view on why.
I don't think it's as bad as people say it is. Sure, if you feel you have to buy that unicorn at the very moment it shows up it is either really grindy or geared for mxt. But you can choose to buy it the next time it comes around.
 
589
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The time is relative, different people will preffer different amounts of time, which is why this discussion has a large element of subjectivity to it. However, the black and white "everything should be unlocked and availalbe to drive from the start" statements I've seen tend to relate more to having an arcade mode with everything unlcoked or being able to test drive the cars etc. which aren't bad ideas.

There are racing games where you don't unlock anything, it's all one open sandbox to play in, but I don't think many people (if any) were actually expecting, or looking for that in Gran Tusimo since Gran turismo has never been about that and it's obvious Gran Turssmo 7, broken economy or not, wasn't ever going to offer that. Maybe a small minority, who aren't wrong for wanting that, they just have a different preference to both of us, and we dissagree on the timeframe needed to buy/unlock the more expensive cars.
Yeah I can't recall the details of those who said they wanted full access from day 1 so it's possible they were talking about some kind of try-before-you-buy arcade mode. Some of them did have the tone of wanting full access/no unlocks without having to do anything beforehand, not even playing through the singleplayer content. Which is fine, people can want whatever they want, but I don't think that's the type of game Gran Turismo has ever tried to be. There has always been a component of progression and unlocks, so expecting the series to deviate entirely from that format is probably unrealistic.
You have to ignore possible future content, the game should have been well balanced from the start, and without any updates, by the time you played through the single player campaign you should have had enough Cr to buy what you needed at each stage including at least one of the "unicorn" cars. That's not possible, you have to grind, a lot, a hell of a lot, or pay a lot, a hell of lot in MTX's to achieve that (though the game does throw most of the cars you need at you which flys contrary to the "it's great to grind" argument). The fact it throws most of the cars you need at you, but then it's still so difficult to afford the more expensive cars highlights even more imbalance with the game really.
I agree things should be released in a completed state, but having been a gamer for a long time I also know that very rarely happens so I tend not to judge games too harshly on it. It's also why I very rarely buy games on release, fully expecting a period of imbalance and instability. I wish things were different, but wishing doesn't make it so.

I agree that playing through the campaign should put you in a position to buy what you need for what level/stage of progression you are on at any given time, i.e. be able to afford a Gr4 car when those races come around, Gr3 car when those races come around, and so on. In my experience that worked pretty well in this game, I never once had to go and repeat anything to earn money to progress while doing the menus and license tests, and in fact probably spent more than I had to in order to just skip some menus by buying the required cars rather than winning them. However I disagree that finishing the singleplayer content once should put you in a position to buy a unicorn. If everyone was essentially handed a unicorn then they would stop being unicorns, and as I pointed out in a previous reply you won't attach any value to the imaginary thing unless you spent real effort achieving it.

And while we're at it, most people on the "economy is fine" side of things aren't proponents of grinding per se. If it's a problem when your side of the argument gets misrepresented then it's only fair that you don't misrepresent us.

Personally I don't think it's difficult to afford most cars in the game without engaging in grinding. I mentioned previously that the only grind I do ever is two runs of GT4 at HSR during those days where what I was doing anyway isn't earning me daily mileage. I hope that the no mileage in free practice is a bug that will be patched out by the way!

Notice that I said most cars. It's difficult to afford the most expensive cars, and it's also difficult to afford all cars in a short period of time, but as I explained I think the economy right now is working well along the objectives I outlined. Buying all the cars, or buying the most expensive cars, should require a lot of effort.

And to head off the question: I don't know whether the current rate is the correct one, or where it should be for all eternity. I think it's good though. I think it achieves the criteria for a good economy.
The prize credits in races are not balanced, the most effective Cr per minute races are not the end game races, and there are not enough actual events in the game to compete in. Add the fact you cannot sell any of the cars, which means that 18.5m Cr McLaren is worth 0Cr the moment you buy it, and you have a broken system. Sure, they are supposedly "rectifying" these things in the future at some point but there's no guarentee it won't remain broken in some way, and future updates are no excuse to release a game with a system as bad as this one.
I disagree that the system is broken, per the criteria I listed previously. I also choose to take the long view and factor in coming updates, but I know you disagree with that philosophy.
Hopefully, future updates do fix the economy for the vast majority of players. You can argue, only a vocal minority have been heard, but that doesn't really fly. Every poll, player reivew metrics and social media platform interaction have been unanimous in their dislike of the economy in GT7. It's not a vocla minority and to claim so discounts every poll and survey conducted in history, as the alternative is to assume all of those are unreliable beucase you cannot account for every living person on the planet.
Metacritic reports 9,768 ratings, and even if we limit ourselves to the 235,000 confirmed sales of GT7 in the first two weeks and round the reviews up to an even 10,000 they still only represent 4.2% of the playerbase.

So 4.2% of players are represented on metacritic yet we are to take that user score as gospel? I don't buy it.
 
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Firstly I don't think Sony cares too much about the fans of any one game more than any other, except for how much money the fans make them. Secondly I think PD, and Kaz in particular, cares about the game they're making as much or even more than they care about the fans. People don't just put games like this out for the fans or for making money, they do it because they want to. If all they cared about was making money they'd make terrible mobile games, or work for EA and pump out a sports franchise title every year. And if all they cared about was the fans they'd make free games and use some form of donation/voluntary subscription service.

GT Sport also had MTX, a point which I think gets swept under the rug a lot in these threads, so it's not like GT7 appeared and made MTX a thing. They expanded it a little bit from GT Sport but not by a whole lot. So I don't think how much PD/Sony cares about fans is relevant when talking about the existence of MTX in GT7.

And lastly I think there's absolutely been discussions behind the scenes on how to shape the game to promote MTX, it happens in any game that has MTX, but I disagree that the entire economy is broken* or designed around forcing us into using MTX. Payouts being lowered doesn't mean the economy is broken.



* I posted a few comments back my definition of a broken vs. functioning economy.
So in your honest opinion,why do YOU think that kaz/PD reduced the payouts?Thereby forcing us to grind longer and longer to buy cars we want to use.
 
589
Sweden
Stockholm
So in your honest opinion,why do YOU think that kaz/PD reduced the payouts?
Note that this is mostly speculation from my part, relying on the things Kaz/PD have actually said to us about what they intend to do.

I think their idea of the game is one where you have simple and accessible races to do at first with low payouts and then gradually increase the challenge and the subsequent reward as you progress through the races, and I think that we got a lot less content than what was planned to be included from the start but that the payouts were scaled based on the total planned content rather than the content that was actually released.

As to why they changed I suspect it was partially due to an oversight (the payouts were always intended to be lower) and partially due to the fact that they wanted perhaps to dissuade people from doing one single event over and over and start branching out to the other content that is available.

The oversight thing I think has merit because there were a small handful of races that got increased payouts to be in line with the other events of their kind, where it looked very much like they simply left a 0 off the intended prize money.
Thereby forcing us to grind longer and longer to buy cars we want to use.
I disagree with the characterisation that we need to grind as much as people in this forum makes it seem like, except like I've said in the unique case of unicorns or wanting to own most of the cars in the game in a short timespan. I've bought several cars I've wanted without ever really grinding. These were Gr4 and Gr3 race cars, so I could have afforded a smaller number of Gr2s or Gr1s for the same money, or a couple of the 3 million-ish supercars. With pretty much zero grinding.

If you want one of the unicorns there's a longer grind ahead of you now, for sure, but I've said several times now that I think it should take time and effort to get those cars. I can't answer whether the current time/effort is the appropriate one though.
 
803
United Kingdom
UK
So once you completed all the menus and races where do we go from there?If you have spent credits on tuning etc,which is the idea of the game,you still wont have enough credits to buy the high end cars you want so you have to go back to the grind or splash out on MTX.I cant speak for others but i dont want to think to myself`oh in 3 months time i can afford car X after all my hardgrinding`.
Kaz saying in his letter he wants us to avoid repeating races over and over again so how do we amass credits after finishing all of the races?MTX?Just drivel to appeas unhappy punters.
 
589
Sweden
Stockholm
So once you completed all the menus and races where do we go from there?If you have spent credits on tuning etc,which is the idea of the game,you still wont have enough credits to buy the high end cars you want so you have to go back to the grind or splash out on MTX.
I mean, that depends on what you want to do? That's a very open ended question. What is the cut-off for "high end" by the way, just so we're using the same frame of reference here. 1 million? 2? Or 10+? I've spent 5.5 million buying cars and 1.5 million tuning them (I am including some paints and stuff in the tuning costs) and I've got 1.8 million or so left over. Even if we deduct the 1 million bonus we got that's still enough for a race car or two. So if I hadn't bought those other cars (that I actually wanted) I could have afforded a pair of cars in the 1-3 million class.

I completed all the menus (though I bought some cars), all the licenses, and one of the mission sets. I've done some singleplayer events outside of that but far from all of them. So I haven't even really finished all the singleplayer content and I still had that kind of money to spend, I don't think that seems too bad?

I cant speak for others but i dont want to think to myself`oh in 3 months time i can afford car X after all my hardgrinding`.
Kaz saying in his letter he wants us to avoid repeating races over and over again so how do we amass credits after finishing all of the races?MTX?Just drivel to appeas unhappy punters.
Kaz also said that more events are coming, and that sport mode payouts will be increased. So with more events (also with higher payouts) you won't have to repeat the same race over and over, but can instead do different races depending on what you want to do. And with higher sport mode payouts, people who mostly/only want to do sport mode can just do that and get enough money to buy the things they want.

It's up to you if you want to believe him or not. I believe him, and I definitely believe in his intentions.
 

Dave A

TreVoR fan for life
Premium
28,799
United Kingdom
Cuddington, Cheshire
JDA1982
Yeah I can't recall the details of those who said they wanted full access from day 1 so it's possible they were talking about some kind of try-before-you-buy arcade mode. Some of them did have the tone of wanting full access/no unlocks without having to do anything beforehand, not even playing through the singleplayer content. Which is fine, people can want whatever they want, but I don't think that's the type of game Gran Turismo has ever tried to be. There has always been a component of progression and unlocks, so expecting the series to deviate entirely from that format is probably unrealistic.
You're correct, that isn't what GT has ever been, but I do think having content unlocked in an arcade mode isn't an idea without merit. Though personally that's not something I've requested, it's not something I'd be against either.
I agree things should be released in a completed state, but having been a gamer for a long time I also know that very rarely happens so I tend not to judge games too harshly on it. It's also why I very rarely buy games on release, fully expecting a period of imbalance and instability. I wish things were different, but wishing doesn't make it so.
Wishing things are different does nothing, but making your thoughts and discontent clear online does, as has been proven by PD's reaction to it in relation to GT7. Maybe if fewer people were passive in this regards, developers would be more disposed to release games that don't rely on future patches as much as they currently do. It's not an excuse to release a full priced AAA title in a poor state. Of course, some things are personal preference. I applaud you for not being dragged into buying games on release, I'm the same with the the rare exceptions.
I agree that playing through the campaign should put you in a position to buy what you need for what level/stage of progression you are on at any given time, i.e. be able to afford a Gr4 car when those races come around, Gr3 car when those races come around, and so on. In my experience that worked pretty well in this game, I never once had to go and repeat anything to earn money to progress while doing the menus and license tests, and in fact probably spent more than I had to in order to just skip some menus by buying the required cars rather than winning them. However I disagree that finishing the singleplayer content once should put you in a position to buy a unicorn. If everyone was essentially handed a unicorn then they would stop being unicorns, and as I pointed out in a previous reply you won't attach any value to the imaginary thing unless you spent real effort achieving it.
You need to put what I'm saying in it's comlete context, the single player currently is far too short, there needs to be a lt more events.So I'm not saying after 100-ish races, you get to afford a 20m Cr car, that would either unbalance the economy the other way, or you'd have to begifted a car or one off Cr prize which doesn't really balalnce the economy well either.

So I definitely agree, you should be able to afford a unicorn car by the end of the single player career (not at least one, not all), but also the single player career is far too short, so it shouldn't be possible in the time it currently takes to complete GT7. There are also far too many cars in GT7 that are pretty useless, as in, there are no events designed for them. It takes very little time to create an event, I have created a large number of custom events for GT5, and I can manage 4 or 5 in a single evening, doing it on my laptop with the TV on.
And while we're at it, most people on the "economy is fine" side of things aren't proponents of grinding per se. If it's a problem when your side of the argument gets misrepresented then it's only fair that you don't misrepresent us.

Personally I don't think it's difficult to afford most cars in the game without engaging in grinding. I mentioned previously that the only grind I do ever is two runs of GT4 at HSR during those days where what I was doing anyway isn't earning me daily mileage. I hope that the no mileage in free practice is a bug that will be patched out by the way!

That's fair enough, I don't mean to misrepresent, but when it takes over 20hrs of grinding the most Cr efficient event (likely over 30 hrours in practice) just to afford a single unicorn car, I find it hard to understand your point of view if you're against grinding yourself.

If you're counting the economy as a whole, then you have to account for the grind it takes to afford any one of the several hyper expensive cars in the game. In fact, to afford every car in the game it will take the average player over 5 years.

Once agin, I dont mean to misrepresent, but I am having a hard time understanding your postion here.
Notice that I said most cars. It's difficult to afford the most expensive cars, and it's also difficult to afford all cars in a short period of time, but as I explained I think the economy right now is working well along the objectives I outlined. Buying all the cars, or buying the most expensive cars, should require a lot of effort.
And just how much effort do you think is reasonable to acquire a single one? Or all of them?
And to head off the question: I don't know whether the current rate is the correct one, or where it should be for all eternity. I think it's good though. I think it achieves the criteria for a good economy.

I disagree that the system is broken, per the criteria I listed previously. I also choose to take the long view and factor in coming updates, but I know you disagree with that philosophy.
That's fine, no one is forcing you to dislike something you like, that's why it's subjective.
Metacritic reports 9,768 ratings, and even if we limit ourselves to the 235,000 confirmed sales of GT7 in the first two weeks and round the reviews up to an even 10,000 they still only represent 4.2% of the playerbase.

So 4.2% of players are represented on metacritic yet we are to take that user score as gospel? I don't buy it.
So you have just under 10k metacritic ratings, which is a sufficient number and overall seeing poor ratings, you have polls also showing poor ratings and you have the social media feedback also voicing widespread discontent with the games economy. Feel free to not buy that, but it's tangiable, claming it doesn't represent users isn't. The fact that you see the same feedback reflected across all platforms and in discussions on here also reflect the same opinions should tell you otherwise.

The question I would like you to answer is why aren't more people who like the economy and game as it is voicing thier opinions and somewhat blaancing out the negative feedback?

According to Surveymonkey, statistically a higher percentage of people give good feedback than negative feedback, so if the userbase were happy with the economy overall, then the scores and freedback would reflect that, not the opposite.

Other sites dealing with statistics relating to feedback scores state people are two to three times more likely to leave a negative score, but don't provide any data for that. However even if you take that metric, that positive is 3 times less likely than positive feedback, that still pushes the positive reviews up to just under 4,000, a far cry from the golden 5:1 positivity ratio desired and still below 50% of the number of negative reviews. And that's just metacritic.
 
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