Kicking open a bee's nest (camber)

MrGrado
So you have quoted yourself stating an opinion and given a link to some random person who has done a "test" of camber. That track is not a good track to find gains from camber and I wonder how much value that guys results are. For example, the lap times between his two best laps are super close, but how consistent are the other fourteen laps that he drove? Looking more closely at the motec data he has provided, there is a big difference in where Min speed is reached on the final corner and also it seems, he is not driving the first corner at all consistent. For all I know, the first 15 laps done with camber were effectively just practise laps.

With the data logger it could easily be shown that camber was having a negative effect on top speed if it were true and until some one can show it, I'm going to assume that it doesn't, because that is what all my testing confirms.
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You're welcome to repeat the test and beat my time using camber.
MrGrado
That track is not a good track to find gains from camber
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The camber in GT needs a magical track to shine :lol:
 
The following is a response to someone via PM conversation that I made. Its just one more way to look at this subject, and settings in general;

Demonchilde = "Abs, Tc, and the other drive settings are all "helpers" in that, they help you become a more stable driver while your gaining experience and getting more skilled yourself. As you become more skilled, all those "helpers" begin to hurt your time, as you do most of what they help with on your own.
So a new player to gt6, might love Tc=5 and ABS=3, but then a few months later he's down to 1/1 on those settings because he drives better. Then most players begin experimenting with turning TC and the others off altogether. A lot of players use abs=1 only.
But camber, as it is here, is a helper also. I see it as just another driving aid. The more aids you have on, the slower the car becomes. Although camber isn't as blatent as the other ones, I do believe its in the same category."
 
super_gt
You're welcome to repeat the test and beat my time using camber.
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No thanks. The idea that camber tunes have a lower top speed is completely ridiculous. For example my tune for the current TT is faster than the top time at the beginning and end of both the front and back straights, my Senna tune is equally as fast at the end of the back straight as the fastest Senna tune in my testing for the Senna tuning contest. My Ford GT tune completely destroyed every other tune for mid corner and corner exit speed in my testing for the Ford tuning contest. It was only a bad choice of power parts that stopped it from being a dominant tune in my testing.
 
MrGrado
No thanks. The idea that camber tunes have a lower top speed is completely ridiculous. For example my tune for the current TT is faster than the top time at the beginning and end of both the front and back straights, my Senna tune is equally as fast at the end of the back straight as the fastest Senna tune in my testing for the Senna tuning contest. My Ford GT tune completely destroyed every other tune for mid corner and corner exit speed in my testing for the Ford tuning contest. It was only a bad choice of power parts that stopped it from being a dominant tune in my testing.
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The tunes I have made that utilize camber, also get better lap times then without camber, when I test them. Which, is why I added camber in the first place. The same can be said with almost every other tune on this forum that uses camber, the tuner must have gotten better times with camber then without, or he wouldn't have used any at all.
The problem is, when other people besides the tuner take out these same cars, they may not get the same effects on lap time. One, maybe two might here and there, but when 5, 10 different drivers try, you now open up not only different driving styles, but different levels of experience and game driving ability level as well.
Unless someone has the exact same, or close to it, ability and drive style, they are not going to have the same results. Or if they do, it won't be consistent.
 
MrGrado
No thanks. The idea that camber tunes have a lower top speed is completely ridiculous. For example my tune for the current TT is faster than the top time at the beginning and end of both the front and back straights, my Senna tune is equally as fast at the end of the back straight as the fastest Senna tune in my testing for the Senna tuning contest. My Ford GT tune completely destroyed every other tune for mid corner and corner exit speed in my testing for the Ford tuning contest. It was only a bad choice of power parts that stopped it from being a dominant tune in my testing.
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Interesting to note that while disagreeing with me you reference your own test that, coincidentally?, produces the same results you disagreed with. Faster cornering, slower top speed, slower lap times.
 
Johnnypenso
Interesting to note that while disagreeing with me you reference your own test that, coincidentally?, produces the same results you disagreed with. Faster cornering, slower top speed, slower lap times.
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Like I said, it was only the choice of power parts that held it back from being dominant in my testing. To be completely honest, the fastest lap I did in testing was in my own tune, it was ever so slightly invalidated that is all. A tweaked tune l made after the event is over a second faster than any other tune in my testing.
 
I'm buying.

The issue of Broken Camber is Valid as it's far more "difficult" to set into the right angle; compared to Toe Setting that work wonders easily & quickly.

Instead of deciding wheather it's Black or White. Let it just be Grey. Maybe it's just purely a preference just like u buy wheels. Afterall, experiments & tests easily done by ur own.

The only person u need to prove it to is to urself, in ur own way. My advise; tune both ways.
 
Maybe GT5 is to blame. We could tune up the car as much as we liked with 0/0 Camber then add Camber to any set up with 0/0 and find more grip. It was easy to use and gave good results to pretty much everybody with ease. Tuning is not that simple though and GT6 everything has to be tuned to work together, it doesn't like it when tuners tune the suspension leaving Camber 0/0 untill the end and unlike GT5 simply adding it to a tuned set up doesn't add grip unrealisticly no mater how the suspension is set up.

I do use Camber but its part of my tuning tool bag and never kept on 0/0. It works good for how I tune and drive.
 
Camber 0/0 is absolute perfect power transfer to wheels.
IF u can drive and make fast time using 0/0; it's perfect; u r getting every single horses up & running.
 
That's a very blanket statement. I remove Camber from my set up & the car is un driveable to me, everything falls appart as if I made my spring rates 0/0 (if we could) because my suspension is tuned with Camber its a mess without it BUT one can tune the car well without using Camber, not to MY liking but to each his own right..
 
Dashyankuro
I'm buying.

The issue of Broken Camber is Valid as it's far more "difficult" to set into the right angle; compared to Toe Setting that work wonders easily & quickly.

Instead of deciding wheather it's Black or White. Let it just be Grey. Maybe it's just purely a preference just like u buy wheels. Afterall, experiments & tests easily done by ur own.

The only person u need to prove it to is to urself, in ur own way. My advise; tune both ways.
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Thing is, it should be black and white. The benefits of proper camber and disadvantages of excess or insufficient camber should be obvious and easy to measure. The fact that there is even debate on this tells me that camber isn't working as it should and as it does in other games.
 
Ridox2JZGTE
It this worth anything, just had a quick look at the 1st position lap replay on 600PP Bathurst TT, the car do not use camber, it's Tommy Kaira ZZII
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I would have thought so, watching how it moves. I'm curious how you seem to know for certain though.
 
MrGrado
I would have thought so, watching how it moves. I'm curious how you seem to know for certain though.
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The same way WRS here verify a lap run :) I can't show the data, but it involves hex :P I can read them as I did hybriding using hex in GT5.

I can also tell useless trivia : the 1st 600PP Bathurst car uses 3.598 reverse gear ratio :P
 
One aspect not mentioned often is how rear Camber helps during braking. The tail lifting as the nose dives makes the rear gain positive Camber as the suspension extends, negative Camber setting achieves closer to 0/0 Camber tire to track.
 
SiTHNiSMO
One aspect not mentioned often is how rear Camber helps during braking. The tail lifting as the nose dives makes the rear gain positive Camber as the suspension extends, negative Camber setting achieves closer to 0/0 Camber tire to track.
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That depends heavily on suspension geometry added to the fact that the front tires do 70% or more of the braking under heavy deceleration.
 
I think people are making statements without being specific at times.
If your talking about camber, real life version, gt5 version, or any other game, then make sure that is known beforehand.
If your talking only about gt6 camber, which we are, then we should say that.

The debate on if gt6 camber acts like any of the above is over. It does not, it might have mimicking qualities, but it does not. If it did, there would be NO posts on camber here, would be no hundreds of arguments everywhere on it, and we would all be talking about some other issue. Am I correct?
 
Not really, no. What it shows clearly is its not as simple as some try to make it out to be. Camber doesn't add grip to any set up simple as that, not in real life and not in GT6.

I'm talking GT6, easy to visualize it too, just create a set up to excentuate the suspension travel and do Straight line braking. Watch the rear wheels \ / when the rear lifts, then add negative camber angle until they are I I, 0/0 is best grip but a zero camber setting in this condition does not yield a 0/0 angle tire to track.

This is just one eliment, but if the general idea is its broken then isolation test to prove it should be easy to do. I like to think this test shows otherwise.

So, does it act right IN THIS EXAMPLE?!?!? Does a flater tire have more grip or not? Can using camber angle to achieve a dynamic 0 angle produce more grip?

Yes most braking is on the front end, but not all and this ties into LSD too, deceleration lock. It certainly does play into suspension geometry, its supposed to, camber gain is in real life and GT6.
 
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Racist & Bans? Where did this convo go?

The topic of camber is vastly complicated, we can look at delayed max grip also. Some rear camber depending on springs and bar setting will delay max grip until the body leans into the corner fully allowing the rear to rotate a bit more on turn in to apex where it grabs. Also depending on springs and bar can grab harder and use more LSD to power out the corner without the LSD frying the outside tire. My M4 set up is using this in its design, & it works well for me.
 
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demonchilde
Wow, look at those bee's swarm, lol.
We all knew some drama was unavoidable, so lets just grab some popcorn, sit back, and resume^^
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That's why I set up fire shields back on page one :lol:
Camber is and has been broken since GT4. (Based on information gathered from posts around the site). PD has masked the issue but never corrected it. They didn't do anything in GT6 with it, which imo shows that GT6 was a beta for GT7 that we all got suckered into partaking without being told.
The only way this argument will end is PD saying X,Y or Z about the subject but I'm not gonna hold my breath, I don't want to see how many shades of deep purple I turn.
 
demonchilde
The following is a response to someone via PM conversation that I made. Its just one more way to look at this subject, and settings in general;

Demonchilde = "Abs, Tc, and the other drive settings are all "helpers" in that, they help you become a more stable driver while your gaining experience and getting more skilled yourself. As you become more skilled, all those "helpers" begin to hurt your time, as you do most of what they help with on your own.
So a new player to gt6, might love Tc=5 and ABS=3, but then a few months later he's down to 1/1 on those settings because he drives better. Then most players begin experimenting with turning TC and the others off altogether. A lot of players use abs=1 only.
But camber, as it is here, is a helper also. I see it as just another driving aid. The more aids you have on, the slower the car becomes. Although camber isn't as blatent as the other ones, I do believe its in the same category."
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Wouldnt that also apply to toe settings? i would think that having all four wheels pointed straight would be faster also except the car would be harder to drive? so in that case toe would be just a driver aid also?
 
Jimmy Haight
Wouldnt that also apply to toe settings? i would think that having all four wheels pointed straight would be faster also except the car would be harder to drive? so in that case toe would be just a driver aid also?
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You are correct a lot of high level TT tunes are 0 toe and camber. At least that have been posted.
 
Otaliema
You are correct a lot of high level TT tunes are 0 toe and camber. At least that have been posted.
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In real life, static toe settings are never 0. I have done hundreds of alignments and some things always ran true. Front wheel drive and all wheel drive cars have a static setting of toe out in the front. Rear wheel drive are set with toe in. This is to make up for the bushing deflection under load to produce close to a "dynamic zero" toe setting. I don't know if the programming of Gt6 takes this factor into account or not. You can't change the toe setting on a rear straight axle car such as a '60s muscle car without bending the housing. Most cars do have at least some negative camber and the rear has toe in if it's independent.


As far as my usage of camber is concerned, I treat it like it acts. If I am making a tune and one end it just a little too tight I may throw a little camber at it to even it up. If I have a tune with camber and I drop down a compound on the tires, going to 0/0 can often give slightly more grip.
 
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