Kicking open a bee's nest (camber)

demonchilde

demonchilde

968
United States
Maine
VooDooChilde333
Ok, I would like to start an actual civilized, adult, calm-tempered, no name calling, and polite camber info thread. If you would please obide by that first sentence, I have a few questions and theory dumps.

The main thing I am trying to avoid is not people arguing, it's long drawn out posts with so much technical information that the answers get lost. Lets try to keep it simple, we all already know the theorys and "the real life vs. inside game" physics, ect. So please don't just repost them, lol.

0.0/0.0 has the most straight grip, period. This does not need to be repeated, we all know this.

Ok, please read and give your input on the following;
This is currently what I believe.
1. If your on a track with a large amount of straights, stage X, Silverstone, Daytona, Indianapolis, Autodroma, ect, then Camber use will most likely hurt more then help, as your going to lose any advantage you gained on every straightaway.
2. That being said, if your on a track with little to no straights, Willow springs, Hatch, Apricot, Autumn-mini, Deep Forrest, Cape Ring, Nordwand, ect, then 'proper' camber use could help more then hurt, as the main disadvantage of camber mostly does not apply to these tracks.
The next 3, only apply if the above (2.) Applys;
3. If you have a car that at 0.0/0.0 has great rear grip, but understeers on exits, then rear camber can help.
4. If you have a car that at 0.0/0.0 has issues on turn in, but oversteer on exits, then front camber can help.
5. The split; in any corner, if your need is more front grip, make front camber higher then rear. If your need is more rear grip, make rear higher then front.

Ok, from your own testing, is what I believe flawed, or wrong? Is it correct?
Again, this is what I believe so far, after messing with camber here and there since the game cam out. BUT, things change, I have been wrong before, and I keep an open mind always. I do not wish to start trouble here, I only want to know if my thinking is correct, where its wrong if so, or if I am on the right track.

Thank you in advance for answering with respect to me and whoever else replys here ^^
 
My 2 cents.......

It is driver depending, and track dependant. Some cars are better and more consistent with (see the Reventon in my garage, or @Thorin Cain NSX in the current CoTM). But I have recently been playing with some race cars and have found camber to work quite well. TZ2 Guilia for instance, as well as the 2J. Both were better (at SOME TRACKS) with camber, but best lap was without. The 2J is great with the set up I have, 1.0/0.5, at Daytona Road, and a few custom tracks. The new seasonal however at GVS, I failed to win with camber. Finished 2nd twice. Won with it removed, but fastest lap was with. It can be all over the place which is why I say it depends on your driving style AND track used.
 
I completely understand your statement on style, lol. And agree.
It's more then just style though, I believe its your playing level that is more important.
Example;
A beginner, most likely will do best with 0.0/0.0, as every lap is like a new adventure to a beginner.
A medium to great player, has more consistency with his/her laps, and experiments with some camber can sometimes be fruitful. (I believe 90% of this forums users fall into this category)
A true expert, will be the most consistent with every turn, every deceleration, and will most likely kick our butt's using whatever camber is good for thier car.

Again, its just my take so far. ^^
Thanks bowtie
 
I posted this from a long drawn out Camber test done almost 2 years ago. (Link here) I still stand by the results, and I use Camber sparingly as a "minor" adjustment. So as @Bowtie-muscle said...it is VERY dependent on track and driving style.

These are my thoughts based on the scenario that I tested for. Yes, they may vary with different cars, tracks, TOE, stiffer suspension, LSD, tires, and even triple clutch, I understand that. But until we have more testers/tuners putting out new tunes with all sorts of combinations, we will all have to walk before we can run.
Camber has never been a major adjustment in my eyes. If anything it was a tool used, along with toe, in order to get the car more comfortable. If your car is not 95% of how you want it to behave through the major suspension parts and you are looking at adjusting camber last, I'm sorry to say that Camber is not going to be your saving grace. Like GT5 I believe there will be sweet spots with these settings.

Front Camber
Increasing the value of front camber lets you drive the car into the corner further. It also seems more nimble/agile on it's feet. If you over adjust, and miss the "sweet spot", then you will be sliding the car more through the turn only to be pushing up the hill on exit.

Rear Camber
Rear camber is where it seems to be the hot topic. Some say that it adds more grip or stablizes the car, and that might be the correct way of putting it, but to me I would say it goes tight/stable. Most of the time the more rear camber you add, the slower the lap times get and it shows on the graph, sort of. Plus, it goes along with a lot of people's theory, which is great, because it can feel like it has sooo much grip thru the center of the turn. I put it down to the turn itself and how people take the turn. Notice how sometimes there was a dramatic drop in lap times even though rear camber was increased? I realized it was all about how I took turns 3&4. Since it went tight, I started to arc the car into the turn later than normal and go after the apex. But if I rode the white line, it would feel great...until I looked over at my speed...the tight condition killed it. But if I moved up 1/2 a lane, I was able to carry more of the entry speed through the corner, but it was still tight on exit and would push up off the preferred line. I was only able to do this because of the track I was on, most tracks do not allow you to "search" for that special line so you are forced to ride the apexes and this tightness will hurt your time even though it felt good. Kinda like Initial Torque on the LSD, the more you raise it, the better it feels, but kills your time, especially the chicanes. If you go over the "sweet spot" on this adjustment, you will find yourself pushing up the track and looking the wall straight in the eye.


Conclusion:
Front Camber - Increasing the value will help the car turn on corner entry. Too much and the car will begin to slide more through the turn changing your line and cause a tight condition on exit.

Rear Camber - Tightens the car through most stages of the turn. Feels great on corner entry, but over adjust and you will have to slow down too much in the corner to counteract the understeer.

As I've mentioned before, this is a pretty close minded test. I can't say how the brakes handled with increasing camber front or rear, how TOE effects camber, or how it handles turning right for that matter. I plan on learning and testing more cars and will hopefully find a systematic way of using camber. I will say that camber has noticeable changes for 1.09 but it all lies in the tuner/tester and their driving style.
 
@demonchilde making rude assumptions of handling changes if changing front or rear are always related to use setup..
In example here's setup what is well.. Your setup, used as is it works, front wobbles a bit but it's kinda quick, then if we flip your settings we get stable car what is pleasure to drive and it losses tenth of second on Tsukuba to your original and only reason is flipped LSD in flipped tune doesn't have so big deceleration locking, but if that is added there also as 7/14/14 (2-way lock) it beats original by two tenth of second.

Showing this just to clarify how it can work differently, even opposite on different way of approach. One champion said at many people start to solve errors on wrong end or place on setup.. Great words :)
Scion FR-S '12
PP= 450pp
Max power= 248
Weight= 1080
F/R distribution= 50/50
Max torque= 199
P.T.W. Ratio= 4.35
Tire class= SS
_______________________
Aero Parts;
Aero kit= front kit B
Flat floors= No
Rear wing= auto custom wing type A
Custom wing= No
Custom wing H/W= No
Other Aero= No
_______________________
Wheels/Rims;
Size= standard
Name= ENKEI JS+M
-------------------------------------
Pit Service;
Change oil= No
Improve Rigidity= No
_______________________
Paint;
Body= Pure Silver Metallic
Wheels= GT6 Chrome 010-W
Caliper= GT6 Chrome 010-W
_______________________
Suspension; (front/rear)
Ride height= 125/110 110/125
SpringRate= 4.40/8.00 8.00/4.40
Dampers (C)= 3/5 5/3
Dampers (E)= 5/3 3/5
Anti-roll bars= 3/5 5/3
Camber Angle= 0.3/0.6 0.6/0.3
Toe Angle= -0.10/0.00 0.00/+0.10
Brake settings= 6/8 tested with these flipped, same and 6/6 doesn't matter..
_______________________
Transmission;
Final #= maximum
Max speed#= minimum
Gear (1)= 3.250
Gear (2)= 2.220
Gear (3)= 1.720
Gear (4)= 1.400
Gear (5)= 1.180
Gear (6)= 1.010
Gear (7)= n/a
Final #= 3.650
_______________________
LSD (front/rear)
Initial Torque= ___/7
Acceleration= ___/7 14
Braking set.= ___/14 7 and this to 14 for better going.
_______________________
Parts;
Fully adjustable height suspension= Yes
Racing Brakes= Yes
Fully Custom Dog-clutch Transmission= Yes
Custom LSD= Yes
Triple-plate Clutch Kit= Yes
Carbon Drive Shaft= Yes
-------------------------------------
Weight Reduction Windows= Yes
Weight Reduction hood= Yes
Weight Reduction Stage= 3
-------------------------------------
Power Options;
Power Meter= 100%
Engine Stage= No
Sports Computer= No
Exhaust= Semi-Racing
Isometric Manifold= Yes
Catalytic Sports= No
Intake tuning= No
Turbocharger Stage= Medium Turbo Kit
Nitrous= (yes/no)(%) (up to you)
-------------------------------------
Weight adjustments;
Aero downforce front/rear= ___/05
Ballast weight= 50kg
Ballast Position= +50

Edit: typo
 
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Good luck with your civil discussion @demonchilde. Though I am like a moth to a flame for engaging in this discussion, I better sit this one out if you expect to keep things civilized. Those who disagree with me have every right to, but I have already said everything that I can on this subject and have posted the findings in my tuning guide.

The only thing that I can add is that in Forza 6 and in Project Cars, camber and their effects are not in question. They work in game just as they do in real life. No need to guess. Just pick up a copy of Carrol Smith's "Tune to Win" and go fast. The telemetry data in both of those games clearly show when a car needs more or less camber and so far, each time that I have changed settings based upon telemetry, I have gone faster.

Still hoping that PD is playing those two games and builds GT7 to blow them away, but not willing to bet on it.
 
I would be extremely surprised if there is even one proper circuit where top speed is effected by camber by any measurable or perceivable amount.

Your not at the limit of your tires while driving straight, so the fact that zero camber gives the most grip while driving straight is virtually useless.

Any increase in speed you can gain in the middle of a bend and exiting a bend leading on to a straight will increase the speed you have travelling along a straight one million times more than any effect any suspension setting has on straight line speed.
 
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I stand by what I said a few posts up, where 'ability' (beginner, good/great/expert) is the deciding factor in which camber either helps you perform better or not.
If you gain the ability to cut tenths of a second off each turn set (decel/turn-in/apex/turn-out/exit), that's just great^^ That is, if your consistent enough (ability) to repeat that every singe time, every single turn. If your not consistent 100% (none of us are, admit it) then you play the game of "gain a tenth, lose a tenth, gain, lose, repeat".
So in my theory, the more consistency we gain in ability, the more gains we retain in time.
I have seen and read a ton of camber propaganda from everyone, and I see this repeated a lot, "some laps I was able to get great lap times, but most laps I lost time compared to the 0.0/0.0 lap time"
MotorCH, everything I originally knew about camber, I learned from you back in GT5. Discovering how much of that technology actually works in GT6 was the biggest mystery. But I still hold what you say as "bible" in most cases, so as you discover new aspects of this, please don't hold back from sharing, lol. I named this thread what I did, because I knew what it was eventually going to be, so bring it, lol. Look in my original post, where I said "the main thing I'm trying to avoid is not people arguing,...ect..."
Mr.Grado, "so the fact that zero camber gives the most grip while driving straight is virtually useless."
Yup. I agree. But if I didn't state that right off the bat, we would be seeing people saying and repeating that over and over until we puke. Look at any camber discussion anywhere, and you will see what i mean.
Odefinn, thanks for reminding me I have to revisit all my tunes from the old patchs. That one you picked was from December, lol. Not only did things change from GT, how I tune and approach things has changed also. But all that aside, I understand what you were saying. Thank you for taking the time to contribute to this, in and out of game, I really appreciate it.
Getting back to my OP.
If something in my list you agree with, please let me know that I'm on the right track. I don't just want to hear where I'm wrong or whatever.
Or if something is outdated, or should be right but isn't, whatever, let me know also.
One doesn't stick his foot at a fast speed into a nest of bee's without expecting the bee's to have a response, lol. I just want to avoid anyone copy/pasting something from somewhere else, if you think its still true, summarize it into something fairly short, and reply it, . . . .pretty please.
-Demon

Edit:
I think we need a 0.0/0.0 camber perfect tune contest. Something like 600pp, so higher speeds can really bring out a cars abilities. And once we all have a tune that we all like the settings on, then we set up a testing of camber on that tune. This will take some effort picking the car though, we would need a car that is mediocre both on turn in/turn out, as well as right in the middle of the under/oversteer range. Testing splits can come later on something else. Anyway, the private testing just doesn't work as evidence to anyone but the private tester. We need a way around that fact.
 
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Camber, in my opinion is slightly broken. But it has more to do with how PD has coded the game, and the lack of data they supply to show whether it's too much or not enough. Running 0.0 is easy, and gives more grip. However, as I said, I have found some camber to be beneficial on some cars. Ran the Anniversary Cobra race car last night, to try a new track and then on two others. Could not remember if I had camber or not and did not want to check. I am currently comparing lap times at Daytona Road Course, and it performed as I wanted and handled great (for me and my style anyway). After I logged my time, I then checked and it was 0.7 / 1.5. Simply applying or removing camber without changes ARB or dampers will not necessarily give the best answer. Starting with some and building around it is the best approach. I did change camber during the tuning process and even tried 0.0. Must have put it back, and that is where I will keep it 👍. Suspension type does matter in my opinion, but I won't go there. I feel if it works for you use it, if you are struggling with it then stick with 0.0. ;)
 
Few things from GT6, my options, some might feel same..

Softer compound and more camber can be used with good benefits, if you have well working camber tune and you change compound to different than tuned was you have to change suspension movement lenght along it to keep "sweet spot"/desired camber effect operating as intended. Softening tire and you have to drop ride height also. Or you can try to tune your camber and toe again for new compound, but probably you need to alter whole suspension to get it right if trying to stay same ride height.

One of my aspect to tune camber is following, set desired weight(and balance) to car, guy ä fit springs what are enough for weight and expected power, leave dampers/arb soft or minimized. Then drive around i.e. Tsukuba and register body movements, then first apply suitable spring ratio between front and rear to target body roll mass on desired wheels, meaning is to direct mass more either outer front or rear, or some cars trying to get equal pressure on both.
Then fine tune movement order with dampers and start stiffening arb to get extra body roll under control.
Then starting to push some laps and checking camber and toe for timing slipping order on wheels, this means entry's, brakings, full throttle exits, long sweepers etc, when tires are falling on desired order I'll start to check LSD, making changes along registered fails during pushed laps.

Have to remember at I have several times kinda "base tune" in my mind, so if something is set prior then order can vary what to tune first.


How this is related to camber, well if you know where body mass is going, you can use it as advantage, but if mass compress too much your dynamic camber might rise too much also, avoiding that you must have build your suspension movements to stay on range where your dynamic camber range works effectively.
Below is exemple from basic suspension movements on Shelby Cobra.
Image106.gif

Image107.gif


I.e. -0.3 front static camber can easily change to -2.5 due dynamic camber during braking in and cornering, but it can also be +1.0 camber during acceleration. These type cases you have consider where you want to set your toe, helping during entry braking, or stabilising front during acceleration. This is not quotation from real life, it's from GT6, even its going same on real world.

Edit: forget to mention, you have to remember at camber is not only thing with dynamic value change, so does front toe, actually so does rear too, but normally not so huge amounts as front. Reason is caster angle along camber, rear thrust angle is dynamic, it gives own changes to rear, kinda same as front dynamic changes, but in smaller range.
 
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I still stick to the pathetic format that Front Camber = Engine CC. Pick any car, change only the camber; u can race immidiately. Last time, without Online Gaming. U'll scraching all out only by urself. And this format win gold all the way. unlike nowaday, gold seems nothing..

If Not Working, then open thread "I need setting for ...", hehe
 
*Sets up fire shields, and grabs a bowl of popcorn. * :lol:

Real Life doesn't equal GT6. Yes most of the game is correct but somethings do not, camber is one of them. You can use camber theory and get interesting results. But the fact remains from the endless stream of tunes form top 100 cars in seasonal TT's 0/0 is still the fastest no matter how it's broken down.
 
MrGrado
I would be extremely surprised if there is even one proper circuit where top speed is effected by camber by any measurable or perceivable amount.

Your not at the limit of your tires while driving straight, so the fact that zero camber gives the most grip while driving straight is virtually useless.

Any increase in speed you can gain in the middle of a bend and exiting a bend leading on to a straight will increase the speed you have travelling along a straight one million times more than any effect any suspension setting has on straight line speed.
Click to expand...
Most of the testing from the Is camber fixed? thread disagrees with you. I quote:
Johnnypenso
You would think that would be the case, but it doesn't appear that way in the testing done in this thread for the most part. Peak terminal speeds are higher without camber, negating the peak cornering speeds produced by camber. Perhaps it's because zero camber lets you get on the throttle slightly sooner, or maybe zero camber affects top speed. Either way, the cornering advantage disappeared at the end of the straight in just about every case.
Click to expand...
Testing was all anecdotal of course but it often showed that camber produced higher cornering speeds, lower terminal speeds and overall slower lap times. This test is a good example.

IMO of course, the reason why people hang onto camber being faster is that they can't let go of real world principles. This is a game, real world has zero bearing. So a statement like yours above about about speed in corners and speed in straights means nothing in the game. You have to test and retest to show how PD programmed the physics in the game. Let go of real world preconceptions or you'll never find the truth.
 
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I originally said that it was possible "whatever camber does in game" is more effective to experts, but ruins lap times on anyone who isn't perfectly consistent with thier laps.
Maybe, its the opposite. Again, just theorys.
Now what I think is going on, is that the added camber in the right amounts, may be making the entire cornering aspect 'easier' to not only flow smooth, but because of that, easier to reproduce on every other corner. Thus, a beginner, whose ability to be consistent is almost nonexistent, would find better lap times by simply finding it easier to drive better. Where, as they learn, and become good/great players, this same effect that used to cut time, now is hindering time, as its fighting natural ability. And then fast forward to the experts, now, any camber at all just simply gets in the way of player control, and of course, loses lap time.

So theres 2 opposite theorys for you guys. Understand that I am reading everything, taking it all as opinion only, as thats all we really have until a programmer pops in here and straightens us all out with actual facts, and then coming up with possible answers based on those ideals. There might be something to this latest theory though.
 
Otaliema
*Sets up fire shields, and grabs a bowl of popcorn. * :lol:

Real Life doesn't equal GT6. Yes most of the game is correct but somethings do not, camber is one of them. You can use camber theory and get interesting results. But the fact remains from the endless stream of tunes form top 100 cars in seasonal TT's 0/0 is still the fastest no matter how it's broken down.
Click to expand...
I could be wrong but i thought the top 100 guys used glitch tuning and SRF so camber probably wouldnt work with those tunes anyway
 
Jimmy Haight
I could be wrong but i thought the top 100 guys used glitch tuning and SRF so camber probably wouldnt work with those tunes anyway
Click to expand...
They use Active Steering SRF is disabled.
They use tuning physics to the highest advantage they can, so is you call a max/min set up glitch tubing than yes they do that. But I know for a fact non max/min tunes can place top ten. My Apercoit hill 2J placed in the top ten at Suzuka in the hands of another driver
 
Otaliema
They use Active Steering SRF is disabled.
They use tuning physics to the highest advantage they can, so is you call a max/min set up glitch tubing than yes they do that. But I know for a fact non max/min tunes can place top ten. My Apercoit hill 2J placed in the top ten at Suzuka in the hands of another driver
Click to expand...
Fair enough, but the fastest 70 charger tune i have tried uses camber, so who knows
 
Jimmy Haight
Fair enough, but the fastest 70 charger tune i have tried uses camber, so who knows
Click to expand...
On a very few cars it works cause it tames the beastly sliding or snap issues. But give that same car to a top 5% driver and they will lay down faster laps with out camber because they have the skills to tame it.

Edit corrected auto guess incorrect error
 
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Otaliema
On a very few cars it works cause it tames the beastly sliding or snap issues. But give that same sat to a top 5% driver and they will lay down faster laps with out camber because they have the skills to tame it.[/QUOT
Click to expand...
Otaliema
On a very few cars it works cause it tames the beastly sliding or snap issues. But give that same car to a top 5% driver and they will lay down faster laps with out camber because they have the skills to tame it.

Edit corrected auto guess incorrect error
Click to expand...
it sounds like you are saying you need to be in the top 5 percent to get the best out of zero camber
 
Jimmy Haight
it sounds like you are saying you need to be in the top 5 percent to get the best out of zero camber
Click to expand...
To get the best if any car you need to be there. What I was saying is the cars that camber helps us mere mortal humans on is of little or no help to the super human alien 5%. Because test after test, TT after TT the fastest cars have 0.0/0.0 camber.
 
Otaliema
To get the best if any car you need to be there. What I was saying is the cars that camber helps us mere mortal humans on is of little or no help to the super human alien 5%. Because test after test, TT after TT the fastest cars have 0.0/0.0 camber.
Click to expand...
So the rest of us 95 percent are better off with camber then?
 
Johnnypenso
Most of the testing from the Is camber fixed? thread disagrees with you. I quote:

Testing was all anecdotal of course but it often showed that camber produced higher cornering speeds, lower terminal speeds and overall slower lap times. This test is a good example.

IMO of course, the reason why people hang onto camber being faster is that they can't let go of real world principles. This is a game, real world has zero bearing. So a statement like yours above about about speed in corners and speed in straights means nothing in the game. You have to test and retest to show how PD programmed the physics in the game. Let go of real world preconceptions or you'll never find the truth.
Click to expand...

So you have quoted yourself stating an opinion and given a link to some random person who has done a "test" of camber. That track is not a good track to find gains from camber and I wonder how much value that guys results are. For example, the lap times between his two best laps are super close, but how consistent are the other fourteen laps that he drove? Looking more closely at the motec data he has provided, there is a big difference in where Min speed is reached on the final corner and also it seems, he is not driving the first corner at all consistent. For all I know, the first 15 laps done with camber were effectively just practise laps.

With the data logger it could easily be shown that camber was having a negative effect on top speed if it were true and until some one can show it, I'm going to assume that it doesn't, because that is what all my testing confirms.
 
This is in responce to otaliema and jimmy's conversation;

Its like I was theorizing, the better your skills grow as a driver, the less camber helps consistency with consecutive laps.
Now, to reiterate, by 'camber' I mean, "what the camber setting does in GT6".

Anyway, evidently I am not the only one who believes this might be fact. 4 days ago I thought the opposite might be true, but after rereading many many many posts on camber, specifically different drivers test results, and noting the dates they were written, and the changes in some drivers opinions over time, this seems the most plausible.
"Changes in some opinions over time", . . . Hmmmm, . . . What also happens to drivers who play alot over time? The more you do something (practice), the better skilled you become. The less things that help consistency are needed, and therefor, the more time can be gained by lessening or removing those things that helped.
Again, still open to anything. This is what I am seeing though. And if anyone wanted to know what Hell feels like, try rereading all the camber posts and theorys made over the last 10 or so month's. I am sure it is close.
 
Jimmy Haight
I do wonder whether the top 100 even try camber anymore when tuning or they just automaticly go zero and tune around it.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure thats the case. I mean, that's what most of us do to. Start out without, tune car completely, then test camber on the track IF needed.
 
Otaliema
To get the best if any car you need to be there. What I was saying is the cars that camber helps us mere mortal humans on is of little or no help to the super human alien 5%. Because test after test, TT after TT the fastest cars have 0.0/0.0 camber.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily 100% of the story. Many top TT cars are incomplete cars. Eg. ZZII has no displacement in stats. Many are standards. Many top times aren't known either way to be using camber or not. Many times one fast driver will post a tune with 0 camber and others just blindly use it, or some slight variation of it. Many times tunes provided with camber aren't driven by any of the top drivers.

Sometimes the TT is top scored by someone who is not usually in the top group eg. the F40 event (premium car) where there is every possibility they are using camber.

But without a doubt many fast TT times are done with 0 camber.

Your also completely disregarding results showing 0 camber to be not fastest. This would include, I think from memory, the very test you proposed and organised, where not one tester was fastest with zero camber.
 
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