Kicking open a bee's nest (camber)

I have read and heard many theorys from many people.
Some people say its broken, some say its not broken completely (it does work just not to the intensity that it should, and some say it IS just like RL- it just depends on your other settings.
I have seen decent arguments on all of these theorys.
So I am still leaning to a public testing of some sort. Something not complicated and easy to do.
I am open to suggestions on how to set this up.
I am thinking like I mentioned previously, that first we would all need to vote on the same car we all agree to, and the same settings on everything but camber for that car. Probably as mentioned above, preferably a car that drives good using 0/0 toe as well, to make this not be a factor or excuse why the results end up one way or the other.

I want to thank each and everyone of you who have said their peace here, I appreciate everyone also trying with me to get to the bottom of this, and narrow the theorys plausible down to maybe 2 or 3, instead of 12, lol. Thanks alot guys. Keep it coming.
 
super_gt
Hello SiNiST3R
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I never got a chance to say hi to the my old pal SiNiST3R!!

OdeFinn
You're sure? Or is this some "racist card" to play?

This person seems to behave and have lot of understanding and he's sharing it with us, hope at you're not throwing dagger on innocent person.
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How can one be racist towards a screen name:confused:
 
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@Johnnypenso Last offtopic, quotation marks were used for reason. How you make sure at that was him? Similarities on typing is brutal way, there is few active members who I have thought to be him, but no clue else than similarity on typing.
 
Perfect camber example, lol.

Lola_flight_mode_png_cf.png


I thought we could all use a laugh break.
Ok, back on track now ^^
 
OdeFinn
@Johnnypenso Last offtopic, quotation marks were used for reason. How you make sure at that was him? Similarities on typing is brutal way, there is few active members who I have thought to be him, but no clue else than similarity on typing.
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I wasn't paying attention to him at all and then someone pointed out the possibiity so I just looked up his posting and it was obvious to me...I was 99% sure at that point. The fact that he's banned makes me 100% sure now.
 
Johnnypenso
I wasn't paying attention to him at all and then someone pointed out the possibiity so I just looked up his posting and it was obvious to me...I was 99% sure at that point. The fact that he's banned makes me 100% sure now.
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Ok, hopefully ban didn't come from possibility or 1% change to be wrong. Just hoping at there were 100% proof to do so, banning out all persons who has something good to share isn't good for GTPlanet.
I'm just afraid of wrong punishments, it's not ideal thing if things start to go on pre-censoring just for caution of it might be, because someone or some amount of people think so.
There is still over 100 million people thinking at world is flat. That doesn't make it happen.
 
OdeFinn
Ok, hopefully ban didn't come from possibility or 1% change to be wrong. Just hoping at there were 100% proof to do so, banning out all persons who has something good to share isn't good for GTPlanet.
I'm just afraid of wrong punishments, it's not ideal thing if things start to go on pre-censoring just for caution of it might be, because someone or some amount of people think so.
There is still over 100 million people thinking at world is flat. That doesn't make it happen.
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I can't speak for the mods but the only way I know of to get banned is to say or do something forbidden in the AUP and I assume they can look up your ISP or something and tell who you really are and ban you that way as well. He's already tried to return a half dozen times and been sent away each time. He'll be back in a few months.
 
OdeFinn
Ok, hopefully ban didn't come from possibility or 1% change to be wrong. Just hoping at there were 100% proof to do so, banning out all persons who has something good to share isn't good for GTPlanet.
I'm just afraid of wrong punishments, it's not ideal thing if things start to go on pre-censoring just for caution of it might be, because someone or some amount of people think so.
There is still over 100 million people thinking at world is flat. That doesn't make it happen.
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I am fairly certain that if he was banned, the staff have good reasons. They would not ban on "speculation". His posts this time did seem thought out and made some sense, although with this being a video game/simulation, not sure it all totally applies. He is entitled to his opinion as is everyone else in this discussion.

Now back to put regularly scheduled program:
Two cars, Greaves and TS030, both tuned to 600pp and run in the latest seasonal. Greaves (for me anyway), better at 0.5/1.0....the TS030 felt faster and better at 0.0 camber. Overall, the TS030 was about 3 tenths faster. Camber is not right in the game regardless to what is said. But, can be useful on certain cars. I have more at 0.0 than with, but do use some in certain situations.
 
I've been there done that, got the T-shirt, on website administration, lol. Many years building, maintaining, and playing the bad guy when I really didn't want to. But I will say this in defense of the mods and admin;
I have banned well over 50 people over a couple sites and 8 or so years (nonGT-forums), and 99% of them got banned NOT for what they said or did on the forums, but how they talked to us in private when we questioned them. Posts can be blanked out and erased, people can be warned, but be rude directly to us and your done. Not only that, everyone types like a signature. For instance, myself, I use way too many comma's and use ' and " like they were a letter. Some people's misspellings are constant when they talk, like there/thier/they're, and other words. Figuring out if your talking to someone you have already banned is not very hard, IP is a giveaway but simply using an Onion server can mask that.
They do a good job, and they are working in our best interests even if we don't know the details, lets just leave it at that.
 
Bowtie-muscle
Now back to put regularly scheduled program:
Two cars, Greaves and TS030, both tuned to 600pp and run in the latest seasonal. Greaves (for me anyway), better at 0.5/1.0....the TS030 felt faster and better at 0.0 camber. Overall, the TS030 was about 3 tenths faster. Camber is not right in the game regardless to what is said. But, can be useful on certain cars. I have more at 0.0 than with, but do use some in certain situations.
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I will play around with these this weekend. Any and everyone else is welcome to throw in thier 2 cents on these as well. Thanks man.
 
demonchilde
I will play around with these this weekend. Any and everyone else is welcome to throw in thier 2 cents on these as well. Thanks man.
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I prefer the Nissan, will see if I can get them posted by tomorrow. Still want to try a thing or two on the Toyota.
On the Greaves, I did try to lower to 0.4/0.8, but was slower, and better at 0.5/1.0. But that could be just an illusion or placebo.
 
demonchilde
Perfect camber example, lol.

Lola_flight_mode_png_cf.png


I thought we could all use a laugh break.
Ok, back on track now ^^
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^^want^^
His screen name was a dead give away. I do know that the mods won't ban just cause we think it's someone. If they get a report of life ban person they look in it and only bring ban hammer down if they feel 100% it's said person.

Edit:corrected auto incorrect
 
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Bowtie-muscle
I am fairly certain that if he was banned, the staff have good reasons. They would not ban on "speculation". His posts this time did seem thought out and made some sense, although with this being a video game/simulation, not sure it all totally applies. He is entitled to his opinion as is everyone else in this discussion.
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He isn't actually. Once you're banned it's up to Jordan or a mod to decide if and how you are allowed back in and in the past they've been quite reasonable IMO with people doing things the right way, that is, being up front about it and asking politely to come back. Sneaking in under another pseudonym is frowned upon.
 
Just fired up GT6 for the first time in ages, started tuning suspensions, saw this thread.

A lot of stuff is hard to prove due to limited telemetry and sadly it doesn't look like this will change.

Personally, I think there are some simplifications of the suspension system which lead to strange camber behaviour. It might even be that the tyre model is perfect but the suspension means its not applied properly.

On the "other" forum someone had data which showed that there is a hidden caster parameter. There does not appear to be a steering axis inclination parameter (SAI- this is basically sideways lean of the strut, whereas caster is front to back lean). If true, this will affect the camber gain when steering is applied, in a non real world way. I think that there is too much camber gain which is why many cars understeer in GT6 mid corner and get red outside front tyre. Even if initial camber is ok for turn in, as you apply lock it gains more and more and you wash out.

I think someone on the other forum also said there were "camber degrees gained when strut compressed" parameters. You can visually see this in replays (and in the opposite sense, positive camber on rear wheels when braking). So what people have said about roll stiffness affecting the desired camber setting is probably true IMO, and this is similar to real life. Hard to set this quantitatively though but I guess you could use the ride height telemetry parameters and car width data to approximate roll angle. Still a few grey areas though.

I mostly drive slow-ish FRs on CS-SH tyres. I don't usually use much front camber, if any. Especially on tight tracks as with more steering lock needed things will get too cambered at the front very easily.

Also on a purely castered strut (no SAI) then geometrically, initial neg camber will mean toe in with steering lock. Again I'm guessing at the programmed GT6 geometry.... but in practice it means that if I have front camber then I also use front toe out, and quite a lot of it, say -0.5 camber and -0.4 deg toe. I can't be sure my theory is correct but on a practical sense if you read MCH's tuning guide I think that he says front toe out improves mid corner grip, and that front camber hurts mid corner grip. So that is what I do and it works for me.

At the rear I do not believe there is as much of a problem. Probably due to there being no steering! I find ~2 deg of camber can help add more mid corner rear grip and also make blending in the throttle feel better, more progressive, on corner exit.

So to conclude I think camber is partially "broken" and it is due to the suspension geometry model. And as much as it upsets me, and I don't have all the telemetry I'd like, I still have a car game with lots of settings to fiddle with. I can easily waste a night just tuning wheel alignment, dampers and LSD.

I also believe the "ride height bug" to be partially due to more caster being added with reverse rake - it sharpens up initial turn in and then understeers later. But it does also feel like some odd ballast/weight distribution fudge. One of the times I use some front camber (with toe out) is when I also have forwards rake i.e. low front high rear. I'll stop writing about this now as kicking 2 beehives in one post might be a bit too much!
 
Motor City Hami
Not sure that was SiNiST3r? The only people still posting in his thread on NGU are Oddfinn and Riddo. I haven't seen him anywhere in eight or ten months. I think his mom may have cut off his internet access?
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Riddo ? Are you talking about me ? I only read the thread a few times, haven't visited the NGU for a long time, maybe someone mentioned my name ?

He lives with his mom ?
 
Motor City Hami
Not sure that was SiNiST3r? The only people still posting in his thread on NGU are Oddfinn and Riddo. I haven't seen him anywhere in eight or ten months. I think his mom may have cut off his internet access?
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From three of us seems like you're most active on NGU, please could you stop spreading false information. Approx halfyear isn't "still posting". And ie understand if someone accidentally types name wrong, but when it's done trying to insult other, I don't think/like or keep it much of adult manner.
 
I don't mind arguing and heated discussions, actually expected it. But this arguing has nothing to do with the OP. (Original Post, to those who don't know)
This guy who got banned, whoever he is, is a mod problem. If anyone has any concerns about it, just private message one of the mods and get your answers.
I'm asking as the thread starter, say anything you want about anything, but please please, also say something about the OP. Anything, even a little bit ?

Not that this isn't entertaining, lol, just not productive.
Thank you, from the bottom of my heart ^^
 
^Nice Redirect^

After reading over the thread and done of the old ones. We are just rehashing the same arguments again. A few things are consistent is that we all agree it helps some players a lot of the time, some players like the way it feels, it helps some cars for most drivers, it doesn't work for all cars & 0/0 is still the fastest option for TT's.
 
I'm thinking Deep Forrest for a test track. Or Apricot.
Trying to think of a track with almost no actual straight sections. All have at least a little bit. Forrest has the start line only, the back straight is a slight S.

Edit;
Noone posted yet, so rather then double post, I will just write here;

One aspect that has been touched on and addressed with opposite theorys, is now why or how much, but WHEN.
It has been said (somewhere on these pages, forgot who) that throwing camber on earlier while tuning seems to help the end result. I think this is a false positive. I think all your doing is screwing something up and then using other settings to fix it. (Don't jump down my throat for saying that, notice the 2 words I started that sentence with 'I think', as in, I don't claim this to be Bible, thats just what .... well, ... I think.)
I personally don't touch camber until the very end. When the regular tuning is done, and the fine fine fine tuning is going on while testing. I do this for 3 reasons.
1, I need to know if I even need to go into settings like this. I might (and often do) like it as is.
2, The ride hight thing, The other odd or wierd things within the game that sometimes don't make sense but yet work. I need to build the tune around them first, to make sure if I need to offset something that I can accurately without camber effects making it seem like something else is going on.
3, I need the tune as close to 'perfect for my style' as possible, to see exactly how much cornering help my car needs that I can't fix elsewhere without screwing something else up. However, I may have to change a few degrees after adding camber to offset the effects. Maybe lower Initial Torque 1 or 2 points, or maybe increasing both spring rates up by some degree to help the pitchNroll a bit, or maybe adjust front toe to effect either the turn in or turn out depending on which needs the most help, ect.
Doing camber earlier, may work a bit, but only because the whole tune is now designed around it. I could set anything wierd and design the whole tune to adjust for it, that not only doesn't make sense but you could possibly lose other potential that car has by never even seeing it. Does that make sense?
 
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Apricot Hill Reverse is better track IMO for testing, the 1st turn, the chicane and overall flow will push the car harder than the non reverse layout. A decent 450PP car on SH should be doing 1:36 to 1:35s there, less than 1:35s possible with certain cars/tune.

Regarding camber first or not, I have been doing many kinds of tune, limited tunes are often happens, by limited, I tune around certain limitation, like real life alignment, specific LSD setup ( like 60/60/60 ), specific ground clearance ( stock real life ride height ), and of course stock real life spring rate :) I can always optimize the setup according to the limitation imposed, sometimes this will be beneficial even when not doing replica tune. Say I have a car with understeer tendency even when stock like the Lancer Evo GSR, I can intentionally lower the front height a bit, use high initial LSD ( both axle ), increase rear toe in, etc to make it tighter handling, then try to coax as much rotation and turn in using spring, ARB and damper. When done, free the car up even more by lowering LSD, lowering rear toe in, level the ride height etc :P remove the handicap.

Increasing or lowering camber later on usually just needs damper tweak to make it work if a tune already optimized.

The most influential aspect on a tune is weight/distribution, then LSD, suspension in that order, of course some cars are more responsive than others. MR and RR cars tend to be very reactive to distribution and LSD change.
 
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I have tuned the Scion FR-S '12 (450PP) using my G29 wheel, I had no Body Rigidity only TSC 1 and ABS 1 and track set/ Real, I have done heaps of laps my best lap is 1:34.541 at Apricot Hill Reverse. later on I am going to add Camber to the car and see if I get a better time that I have mention. When I tuned up cars I always tune them up first and see wether or not they need Camber or not.
 
fordlaser777
I have tuned the Scion FR-S '12 (450PP) using my G29 wheel, I had no Body Rigidity only TSC 1 and ABS 1 and track set/ Real, I have done heaps of laps my best lap is 1:34.541 at Apricot Hill Reverse. later on I am going to add Camber to the car and see if I get a better time that I have mention. When I tuned up cars I always tune them up first and see wether or not they need Camber or not.
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Can I have that setup for adding camber to it.
 
OdeFinn
Can I have that setup for adding camber to it.
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Silly bloody me, that time I did was with Camber on the car sorry, I try it without and see before I give you my setup.


Edit: I found something interesting about this car, that time I did was with Stock camber settings only everything else I tuned for this car, so the test I did was no good so I am going to start from scratch again with another car.
 
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