Kicking open a bee's nest (camber)

Discussion in 'GT6 Tuning' started by demonchilde, Apr 11, 2016.

  1. demonchilde

    demonchilde

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    Yes, and no.
    Everything is a drivers aid. Dampers, are drivers aids. So are brakes and LSD.
    They are settings that the game allows you to increase or decrease intensity to, . . . Help you become a more stable driver.
    Some aids decrease the maximum power/torque that a car has, as a side effect of whatever benefits that setting has.
    Not everything with a bad side effect, ends up with slower lap times however.
    Camber isn't as loud as TC, thats obvious. But that's just 1 example.
    If I was on a straight track, no elevation, the setting my ride height as low as possible will make me faster. So in effect, having a +15/+10 ride height that would normally help turn in on regular tracks, here is just another setting that is "making me slower".
    Want more examples?
    ABS. ABS is a driver aid that some people hate. I like it. Not on every tune, but most. Does ABS effect the power of a car? Maybe. Does that mean it makes you slower?
    NO.
    As a matter of fact, go online, go to the top ten record holders in every seasonal event. Click them. Look at thier settings and what they had on. Isn't it funny how 8 out of every 10 had ABS=1 on? But yet, they hold the fastest records? Heh.

    I'm not here to argue those examples. Take them or leave them.
    The point is, your right, camber is a helper to those who like to use it. Your right, to a lot of drive styles, it does help them become more stable drivers (or however nyone wants to put that)
    But your also wrong. Just like the ride height example, no setting, camber included, is always going to react "faster" or "slower" every time.
    Any setting that adds wind resistance, or removes any grip at all, is going to slow down a car. However, if that same car made up that time and then some on the corners and while on nonstraight roads, then that same setting works in reverse to get 'faster' lap times.
    Under no circumstances does anything always work the same, for you or against you.
     
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  2. Dashyankuro

    Dashyankuro

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    Thanks for the Basic Info btw. It's GT 6th. I'm pretty sure everybody knows that.
     
  3. demonchilde

    demonchilde

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    Thats what I thought, too.

    If you don't understand why I wrote anything up there, then something is being lost when you translate it.
     
  4. Jimmy Haight

    Jimmy Haight

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    I tried MCHami`s 500pp trans am tune with camber, 5 laps trial mountain, then with camber removed i was .4 sec faster on 1st lap, second lap i was up another .4.
    I dont know how valid the test is because it involved alot of powersliding, but hey its a trans am around TM, thats normal right?
     
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  5. demonchilde

    demonchilde

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    A trans-am powersliding around corners??? Not only is that normal, but somehow made a scene doing it in just about every movie a trans-am has ever been in, lol.
    And that's my results also, around that track. Maybe not 4 seconds difference, but different nonetheless. The track has almost no straights at all, the better you can get the car to corner tje faster your going to be.
    But you and I are just 2 people, with 2 results that only apply to the 2 of us.
    I'm sorry, but I get better results using a little camber when I am tuning specifically for tracks that have more corners then straights, has little to nothing to do with the car, has to do with my drive style, and consistency.
    Maybe people who are better at cornering find they don't need the extra help, and just get faster times with more grip because of it, maybe not. Maybe people honestly don't realize the actual effects, or because its so slight they think its more just the randomness of lap times or something close to that. Maybe they are just stuborn, and wouldn't admit they changed thier opinion even if they did.
    I stick by my main theory;
    Camber, in certain situations and on certain cars, can help a driver become more consistent with his/her laps. 0 camber might get your fastest time on a track, but my laps can vary 1-3 seconds depending on if any and how many slight mistakes I might make. Late turn ins, cutting into a high speed spot 1/4 second later then I should, crap like that. I find that camber can help cut that variance down a lot in these situations. Although 0 camber might get me the fastest super lap, added camber can cut lost time from mistakes over a many lap race. But again, thats just one driver, one style of driving, and those results only apply to myself.
    I am more concerned with why then what. So i can use it more effectively.
    Thanks for your input man ^^
     
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  6. Jimmy Haight

    Jimmy Haight

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    That time was 4 tenths not four seconds, but my next test will be tyre wear on midfield with my favourite all time 70 charger tune (Anghell) it is the main car i use online so i am very consistent with it.
     
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  7. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    @Jimmy Haight try that old camber test with altered toe values and tell your impressions about it.
    Below is amount of fixed toe and link to test.

     
  8. Jimmy Haight

    Jimmy Haight

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    @OdeFinn the 500pp trans am was just one test, it dosent mean anything, i just did a quick test, btw i have been doing a few laps with your Isuzu bellet ( my fourth favourite car in gt6) tune lately with the 163mm ride height and ss no abs. its not the fastest tune but i really love driving it (redline is for panzies with this car). when i feel i am consistent and fast with it i will try no camber.
     
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  9. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    @Jimmy Haight Bellett hooks me mainly because handling reminds so close to Escort and many others ~70's RWD cars, it's just so smooth to go on slide. That car loves snow on GT6.. :)
     
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  10. Jimmy Haight

    Jimmy Haight

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    this car loves anything you can give it, anything from CS to RS tyres its great
     
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  11. Dashyankuro

    Dashyankuro

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    1. Car's getting slower may caused by various reason.
    2. Camber & Toes Setting is just needed ONLY AFTER u got right balance, almost equilibrium.
    3. Technically, if the car's super balanced, means u don't even need much angle modification, to counter-balance the contrifugal forces.

    * TRY THIS: Get ur best setting car make the set camber & toe to ZERO. And try chase ur own best time Ghost -- Let see if it's still the best. Because, even in real racecar, u will lose max 5secs per Lap with a wrong Camber & Toe Setting. Should NOT lose 50% Drivabilty.

    IF THE CAR LOSE IT DRIVABILITY. It's purely not the Camber & Toe issue. It's a load transfer issue aka Spring Rate. Damper doesn't contribute not much significant as Spring Rate. Anti-Roll should catch body roll before it's transferred to wheels (where then u need a Camber & Toe Settings).
     
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  12. demonchilde

    demonchilde

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    Most tuners use toe settings towards the end of the tuning process. I don't.
    I'm biased towards weight Differentials.
    I start with lower (arounx 1/4) springs, and figure out the weight I am going to try.
    50/50? Thats fine.
    I like 52/48 @ 51/49 the most, front weight needs (usually) less turn in work while tuning, but rear toe I will start around 0.05 or so.
    Anyway, I agree with most of that, but thats just me. Everyone tunes different, in different orders.
     
  13. coryclifford

    coryclifford

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    And yet you posted tunes of cars with 10 degrees of camber front and rear?
     
  14. Dashyankuro

    Dashyankuro

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    Sir. In case u got lost or stubborn.

    Those were my early posts which I'm heavily using Camber to stabilize the car, and Yes it is stabilzing to my Driving Style. Then, Broken Camber comes to me as New Age. Making all setting looks insanely unreal, as I'm racing own track car. Then, I have to admit it's just a Game. Setting with Zero Camber is really proven making Faster Lap Times. Seems effortlessly.

    So, I learnt & Improvize. U should try that too, like cutting the crap like u own the GT6 Franchise.
     
  15. coryclifford

    coryclifford

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    Not lost or stubborn. :lol:

    I've always ran stock or 0. :tup:

    I Autocrossed for 8-9 years so I understand real life camber also, and 10 degrees is absurd. Period. Completely absurd. Both in real life and a game. But it's good you learned. Tuning with just an inch or two of the tire rubber on the ground is silly. Or lost or stubborn. Must be faster if we crank everything up to 10 right? :D
     
  16. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    Damper has large impact on a car balance, a well tuned spring/ARB/damper can be messed with only a click change of front or rear damper.
     
  17. Dashyankuro

    Dashyankuro

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    252
    Then, get over it.

    Camber +10 I used it on Europa, yes. Care to show ur best found Camber Setting for Europa? As u don't even need that setting; why bother it's +10 or +20.

    The point is; 1 point of Damper vs 1 point of Spring Rate.
    WHICH ONES IS MORE INFLUENTIAL?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2016
  18. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    With spring static, you can definitely alter the way the car handles simply by tuning the damper differently. You can induce more braking rotation or exit rotation just by changing front or rear damper extension.

    The reverse also true, with damper static, you can mess up the car by lowering or raising rear spring for example, and depending on the car weight distribution it can be massive change. NSX with 42/58 for example, more stable with front higher and rear lower rate.
     
  19. coryclifford

    coryclifford

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    Get over what?

    Zero on the camber when I run the tuned one. The rest of your post I don't understand.
     
  20. Dashyankuro

    Dashyankuro

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    Spring Rate has a Wider Range of Adjustments means MORE possibilities of getting wrong;

    Compared to Damper with 10 x 10 = 100 Possibilities Max

    Get over to think like I care whether U can drive with the camber setting or not.

    I dont set my car for u to able to drive.
    I set it to make ME able to drive.

    Is it Clear now?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2016
  21. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    Try this link, read the notes, and try the front extension ( damper ) change to see how much a few clicks can alter how the car drives.

    https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...-lsd-vettec6zr1.294814/page-142#post-11235530

    Every part of suspension works in synergy, all of them have impact to the car, with any give spring rate value used ( whatever values set ), you can alter it further by adjusting ARB and damper.

    An answer about damper tuning :

    https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...-lsd-vettec6zr1.294814/page-141#post-11196980

    https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...-lsd-vettec6zr1.294814/page-141#post-11197557
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2016
  22. coryclifford

    coryclifford

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    Then why post your tunes?
     
  23. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Dampers have way more influence on a tune, you can move your spring rates quite a lot with very little noticeable effect unless your springs are badly set and you're just moving closer towards the range where they'll be effective
     
  24. demonchilde

    demonchilde

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    Agreed.
    This is why you can tell if a tuner likes to drive loose or tight as a style. 9 times out of 10, a loose spring set up will result in the same few issues, and you will more then likely see the same damper patterns counteracting those issues.
    Like seeing dampers low#/high# - high#/low#, or reverse.
    Dampers give you more play to use the springs to your comfort level, instead of just a handling item.
     
  25. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Its more that because the dampers are relative so that they have a relative amount of effect if changed on a soft or hard spring set up. Springs set the grip levels, dampers control the weight transfer, having a tiny bit more or less grip at high/low speed/load sections of the circuit will balance itself out but changing the way the weight transfer happens can have a drastic effect on the overall behaviour of the car. A predictable tune will have balanced or nearly balanced F/R pairs (ie. F comp + R ext = braking behaviour), the further you get from this the more dramatic and hard to predict the behaviour will be
    Dampers are really simplified in the physics engine, if you understand the basics of weight transfer then you can manipulate the behaviour of a car really easily. Springs have an almost passive effect, as long as you keep them balanced to the static weight distribution and maintain that balance (use the little blue bars) whether you're at the soft/stiff ends of the spectrum you'll be fine
     
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  26. Dashyankuro

    Dashyankuro

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    Definitely. Damper has it's own function and I'm clearly understand of how it works.

    Think I'm speaking of Camber Vs Toe context✌️

    DolHaus
    Dampers have way more influence on a tune, you can move your spring rates quite a lot with very little noticeable effect unless your springs are badly set and you're just moving closer towards the range where they'll be effective

    The case with Tuning Process is; sometimes we made it to the Driveable Setting but yet, not knowing is this the one with Full Potential. Thus, explore for another Set of Setting, I think we need a new set of Springs rather than a New set of Damper.

    coryclifford
    Then why post your tunes?

    I'm sorry u stucked with my single setting. My bad. Should I say - Err, actually u can change Camber Setting to whatever u wish, to suit ur way of Driving.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2016
  27. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    @Dashyankuro If you want people to take you seriously or give you props then stop acting like a bro and put down something that makes us take notice, place well in a FITT time trial or tune the car that everyone wants for an online event, show some actual ability rather than just flapping your gums. Stop recycling common (read: bull:censored:) knowledge and show that you can identify problems and solve them using basic cause and effect through experience in the game rather than by using some hackneyed advice you spent 5 minutes looking up on google. Its boring man, you're a copy and paste of the last 40 or so chumps that talked the talk but couldn't walk the walk
     
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  28. Dashyankuro

    Dashyankuro

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    1. Cut & Paste from where specifically?
    2. I'm not quite understand yet with FITT things, but dont want to spoils asking all silly question about FITT. Plus, it seems to have World Ranking Setting all in there; seems Flying perfectly already. And it seems to eat so much time; don't really have luxury of time at the moment.
    3. But, if u say Doing the FITT thing, then only be serious. I'll look onto it seriously, as soon as I understand what I should be doing.
     
  29. Vagabond

    Vagabond Moderator

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    Don't let this degenerate into a personal debate please.

    @Dashyankuro - If you have some helpful meaningful advice to offer regards tuning, well and good but what you have thus far shown is far from that I'm afraid.
     
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  30. Dashyankuro

    Dashyankuro

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    No worry, Mr. Moderator.

    I'm saying of what I think, they're saying of what they think.
    Even on Race Track people argue of who's running right Tunes.

    Nothing Personal.
    Cheers.