Kicking open a bee's nest (camber)

[demonchilde]

For someone that says zero camber is fastest, alot of your tunes seem to have camber, do you recommend next time i use your tunes to put them all to zero?

What do you think will win you more races, "speed" or "overall consistency"?
Having a hot lap is great, but only if you can match it nearly every lap.
I like you Jimmy, lol, stop antagonizing.
Focus on the issue, lol.

 

[Jimmy Haight]

What do you think will win you more races, "speed" or "overall consistency"?
Having a hot lap is great, but only if you can match it nearly every lap.
I like you Jimmy, lol, stop antagonizing.
Focus on the issue, lol.

I thought it a fair question, as i do use one of his tunes, maybe i will try it myself and post the result (btw its the 500 pp trans am)

 

[Motor City Hami]

For someone that says zero camber is fastest, alot of your tunes seem to have camber, do you recommend next time i use your tunes to put them all to zero?

Maybe try reading the section in my tuning garage about camber? Then you'll know "WHEN" to appropriately use camber and how it can effect tuning in GT6. I do not claim that zero camber is always best to use. It does something and I spent about six weeks of hard testing to come to the conclusions that work for me. The one thing that I am positive about is that GT6 is nowhere near real world when it comes to camber (well and other settings). And yes, I did test with both ABS zero and ABS 1.

 

[killerjimbag]

GT6 is a broken game. Has been since release. It's a video game first and simulator last. Move on to the next generation of games gentlemen. You can only beat a dead dog for so long.

 

[Jimmy Haight]

Maybe try reading the section in my tuning garage about camber? Then you'll know "WHEN" to appropriately use camber and how it can effect tuning in GT6. I do not claim that zero camber is always best to use. It does something and I spent about six weeks of hard testing to come to the conclusions that work for me. The one thing that I am positive about is that GT6 is nowhere near real world when it comes to camber (well and other settings). And yes, I did test with both ABS zero and ABS 1.

I can agree with that, but the top 100 tt guys would probably disagree, going by what i have read in this thread

 

[Jimmy Haight]

GT6 is a broken game. Has been since release. It's a video game first and simulator last. Move on to the next generation of games gentlemen. You can only beat a dead dog for so long.

Broken or not its still the only game worth playing for me, unless i feel like doin sum killin then its GTA5

 

[CBH]

I really like this.

Broken or not its still the only game worth playing for me, unless i feel like doin sum killin then its GTA5

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Sim is video games genre Every sim on pc has issues too, they try to simulate to varying degree of success. Pcars and AC has their own sets of issues with tires ( heat, model, camber ), patch after patch, after patch.

But they are sim, they are not broken like GT6. /s

The Radbull MX5 V2 ( link on my sig ) has zero camber and toe at the rear, and -3.5 camber at the front, it was tested by @Mike_grpA using wheel with camber changes by him, and it improved the car, most likely because of this :

Ok, few questions pops:
Why then being active here without anything to say?
Trading GT6 to this?

LFS is one of the rare sim that does the camber / tire physics well, I/M/O temp reading actually can be used to dial camber. This is what GT needs , LFS level physics.

 

[OdeFinn]

@demonchilde, @bread82 personally I try to start from weight/power/springs but first rolling on desired weight/power on stock springs& suspension, not for starting there just checking, then dropping to zero toe and again run, then deciding where to move camber. But that's not always like that, I might have some "stolen parts" what I want to use and then everything starts from them and building tune around em.

@Motor City Hami may I propose quick tune challenge to you, you have read that noABS compo what I proposed as Fitt event, can we take heads up on that. Spending few hours will result fine tune for it.
It's a tune against tune, not much to play because only suspension setup to do.
You can show your five lap replay along with tune and we can then ask if there is some volunteers to compare our tunes.
I have practically ready tune waiting, didn't take long to do, around 100-120km to tweak, then just happily driving around different tracks.
I can show where my goes on my hands, so you don't have to figure how fast your tune should be.

 

[Motor City Hami]

@Motor City Hami may I propose quick tune challenge to you, you have read that noABS compo what I proposed as Fitt event, can we take heads up on that.

Here is a better idea since you are still playing GT6 and I am not. I had a fantastic three hour session with Project Cars last night and it was awesome! I played Forza6 over the weekend and it was equally a fun experience.

Your motivation seems to be that you have really found a difference between ABS 0 and ABS 1 tuning and that you just cannot get everyone else to see what you have discovered. You should build two tunes yourself, one ABS 0 and one ABS 1 and explain the differences to everyone and why there are differences. That would be more convincing than a made up head to head battle with one car. Besides, we have already gone head to head in a few FITT challenges. Why are those now invalid? Oh, right, because test drivers used ABS 1.

 

[OdeFinn]

Your motivation seems to be that you have really found a difference between ABS 0 and ABS 1 tuning and that you just cannot get everyone else to see what you have discovered. You should build two tunes yourself, one ABS 0 and one ABS 1 and explain the differences to everyone and why there are differences. That would be more convincing than a made up head to head battle with one car.

Actually I have just tune for fitt event, tuned for ABS and noABS, only difference is ride height between tunes, handling is close to each other after height change, close.

Besides, we have already gone head to head in a few FITT challenges. Why are those now invalid? Oh, right, because test drivers used ABS 1.

..comparing cats to rats.. My suggestion was identical car and identical playground as only suspension. But no problem, you don't have to prove anything, neither do I. My only motivation is to give all equal information what to breed for own tuning, ABS just is a driving aid more than just anti lock brakes, it narrows car tuning areas lot, bigger field is more fun. It's cutting far low end and high end of almost all tuning options, leaving middle area as playground, not bad if you don't want fetch ball from far.

 

[demonchilde]

Took a few pages, but we came to the same place as the other camber discussions;

There is good information and theorys, and fun things to test also, if we didn't have to put knee high sewer boots on and wade through the 3 foot high pile of crap to find it.

I apologize, I woke up cranky, lol.

 

[LOOS]

Is list of do not do to tuning in Gran Turismo??

 

[demonchilde]

Not sure how to answer that, exactly.
There's a couple tuning guides in the pinned topics at the top of the tuning forum, theres no real LIST, but there's how-to's and such that can help.

 

[bread82]

Any chance of the setup on that car please Ode?

Someone set the time circuits on that DeLorean to 2013 and drive to Tokyo. They can then create an alternate 2016 where camber in GT6 works like real life.

 

[OdeFinn]

Any chance of the setup on that car please Ode?

Someone set the time circuits on that DeLorean to 2013 and drive to Tokyo. They can then create an alternate 2016 where camber in GT6 works like real life.

Lol, funniest thing is that at it's replica, using real values..

 

[MrGrado]

Other than the need to drive an ABS 0 car more carefully on the brakes, there is no difference as far as I'm concerned. In fact I mostly drive cars with ABS as if it didn't have it.

From memory, the testing l did for the Senna Contest was done with ABS 0. I have replays, so I can confirm this if it is important. The lap I did in Someones viper at trial mountain that I posted was done with ABS 0.

I'm not sure what value having a tuning contest would be to determine something about ABS. I'm not sure there is any way at all to objectively show that ABS has an effect on a tune, other than during braking as intended.

 

[CBH]

That's how I see about ABS only during Braking and not the tune as @MrGrado said.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

All my cars ( tune ) are done without brake assist I definitely have to fine tune the car as the braking process is not just about mashing the brakes as hard as possible in straight line ( I'm in control of how much brake force which leads to how much the front will dive/weight being sent to front, with assist, I'm sure the game will make sure the best brake force possible, perfectly modulating it even when driver applied full 100% input till the end of braking phase into the apex ), the car needs to maintain balance entering the corner, as I trail brake into the apex. Damper and ARB really shine here, most cars are very responsive to small change on ARB and damper. Brake balance also can heavily influence how the car enter a corner without brake assist, increasing more from 5/8 to 6/8 an give more push when trail braking into the apex, and little tweak to front damper compression may help.

I never drive with ABS 1 in GT6 ( did some laps in GT5 and never used it ), so not sure if small change like front brake balance increase will affect the tune as much as what I usually do with no assist.

 

[DolHaus]

Good luck with your civil discussion @demonchilde. Though I am like a moth to a flame for engaging in this discussion, I better sit this one out if you expect to keep things civilized. Those who disagree with me have every right to, but I have already said everything that I can on this subject and have posted the findings in my tuning guide.

The only thing that I can add is that in Forza 6 and in Project Cars, camber and their effects are not in question. They work in game just as they do in real life. No need to guess. Just pick up a copy of Carrol Smith's "Tune to Win" and go fast. The telemetry data in both of those games clearly show when a car needs more or less camber and so far, each time that I have changed settings based upon telemetry, I have gone faster.

Still hoping that PD is playing those two games and builds GT7 to blow them away, but not willing to bet on it.

Much the same as Hami I'm helplessly drawn like a moth to the flame but will stand aside here in the hope of maintaining civility.
My feelings on the matter are that I just can't find an advantage to running anything more than about 0.5 and even then its just to take the edge off an aggressive setup in order to gain some consistency. Every competitive car I've ever built has been built and rebuilt several times over using a systematic approach in order to find what is fastest, I try to examine all the extremes and everything in between and then compare them to see where the gains are and where/why the losses occur, putting 500 to 1000 miles on a car in testing/tuning was fairly routine. Every car has been tested with camber and without, I try to give every option enough time and flexibility to prove itself as it benefits me as a competitor to do so, even if I see an immediate and substantial increase in lap time I will attempt to modify that setting to see if there is the potential for any improvement.
I would sometimes find that a bit of camber improved the feel/characteristics of a car in certain situations, I would focus on what it had improved and then try to mimic the effect on a 0.0 car by manipulating the other settings and 9 times out of 10 I could achieve the same effect without the associated grip/time penalty. If the effect couldn't be mimicked then the camber would remain as long as the gain consistently outweighed the loss.
Unfortunately this is very rarely the case, its a weird setting that allows you to have a fairly dramatic effect on the characteristics but comes with such a severe grip penalty that it just doesn't make sense to use 90% of the time, similar to the flat floor option and its overly steep PP penalty, both promise so much based on real life knowledge but deliver so little advantage in the game.
In my opinion, a competitive environment is the only way to prove whether something truly works, only when you're going up against competitors of your own calibre and winning can you know for certain that you're doing it right.

 

[demonchilde]

DolHaus = "I just can't find an advantage to running anything more than about 0.5 and even then its just to take the edge off an aggressive setup in order to gain some consistency"

This is pretty much what I use it for as we speak.
When I am in the tuning battle of finding things to offset other things, I use 0.3 and 0.7 camber as just another tool to fix or offset with. I use it LAST, but I do use it.
I used to be more bold with the settings, but that was earlier in gt6, and before quite a bit of testing.

But again, my golden rule, is to never state something as 'fact' when it's just not possible to do so. To say, "with the extensive testing I have done, I personally feel ___________, as far as it effects my personal driving style" is about the closest anyone can say with surety. Keeping an open mind that not only is there more to the story then I know so far, or that at any given time GT might alter something that might change the effects, is the only way to keep a clear mind and not bias yourself.
Any tuner who closes his mind to anything has either given up on the game, or is seriously hindering thier ability to become better at tuning. This applies everywhere else tuning, and sure as hell applies here too.

Thanks for the responce man^^

 

[LOOS]

So people are saying cars that have more then -0.5 Camber have less grip then the same set up with under -0.5 Camber and 0 Camber has the most Grip. If Im looking at a set up and it has more Camber then -0.5 it will be slower than a set up with 0 Camber angle. Simple and Easy to see, clearly less grip and slower lap times. No need for pages of debate, we need a car to show it clearly.

The car I see used here is a 450pp BRZ SH set up but nobody has posted a tune. I think we need to use that car to once and for all demonstrate this clearly. I've got a new BRZ built to 450pp on Sports Hard Tires. We need a set up for this car that is faster with 0 Camber that everybody can see it as clear as the Top GTP tuners.

I request those Tuners with Garages and Tuning Guids please tune my car, I will be testing at Streets of Willow and Big Willow... Anybody who feels one way or the other can come over and drive the cars and see it for themselves.

Every car should be the same except suspension to make this all about Camber. Most people drive ABS-1 with nothing else turned on, forget arguing over ABS-0 and just tune it the way most testing will drive it, ABS-1.

Testing for me will be at Willow Springs Streets of Willow & Big Willow at default track day and settings.

My new BRZ had some bolt ons added before delivery that should be a fine example.

BRZ 450pp
263hp
191tq
1,150kg

99.7% Power Limiter
Intake Tuning
Engine Tuning Stage 1
Racing Exhaust
Isometric Exhaust Manifold

Racing Brakes & ABS-1

Sports Hard Tires

Stock Transmission & Drivetrain

Stage 2 Weight Reduction
Carbon Fiber Hood
Window Weight Reduction
22kg Balast

Aftermarket Spoiler and 1in + Rims


I CHALLENGE anybody who thinks Camber can be just as fast or even faster to also tune the car and put up or shut up as they say, post the set up and lets have the cars do the talking..

 

[demonchilde]

So people are saying cars that have more then -0.5 Camber have less grip then the same set up with under -0.5 Camber and 0 Camber has the most Grip.

Your reading too much into it.
What he was saying is that IF your going to use camber AT ALL, using more then 0.05 doesn't work for him personally. With me, I feel the same, but I go up to 0.07.
As a matter of fact, he mentioned that he found a 'severe loss of grip' while testing. Read his whole post, man.

 

[Motor City Hami]

I CHALLENGE anybody who thinks Camber can be just as fast or even faster to also tune the car and put up or shut up as they say, post the set up and lets have the cars do the talking..

That's pretty bold for post number seven on GT Planet. Apologies if I am a bit skeptical, but we have had ghosts among us before... until they get banned.

 

[LOOS]

What he was saying is that IF your going to use camber AT ALL, using more then 0.05 doesn't work for him personally.

What's being discussed I thought was if using Camber above -0.5 was overall slower and camber above -0.5 causes loss of grip. MCH further adds he uses Camber to take the edge off some tunes by using the grip loss from Camber, but its still clear Camber reduces grip overall.

With all these opinions flying and some chime in saying the debate is dead, I'm confused there is not one set up proving anything, the guy who said he was faster with Camber all of a sudden decided not to post the tune, lol that's just funny.

MCH why is it bold to ask for a set up to showcase grip loss or not? Why is it whenever backed into a corner the topic is shifted off topic? Why so much Blah Blah Blah but no cars doing the talking??? Why do some say they are leaving but never really go?

 

[demonchilde]

Have you looked in his garage?
He's got plenty of tunes he uses a little camber on, take your pick.

 

[LOOS]

Have you looked in his garage?
He's got plenty of tunes he uses a little camber on, take your pick.

Are they the fastest? Can't be beat by Camber cars? Each one? So if times with Camber cars are faster than with those is Camber faster?

Or wait, tuned 6 months ago, new tuning and driving style blah blah lol

I'm looking for fastest from BOTH Sides, what side is he on?? He says most Grip 0/0 Camber, what does that mean? Faster 0/0 or just something to say to justify using Camber when sayinh its broken?

Lotta BS going on by BS Artist...

Que Topic Switch

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Get an alien here first, a tune can vary in lap time just by changing driver. Which is why tester/driver other than tuner are only rough measure on how a tune perform, different tracks alone could change a lot in lap time, another tune with different camber might be faster on one track, while another tune with no camber may be faster in another track. It's complicated

I have an Auto Union Type C tune ( death trap on wheels ) on CS that I can drive to 2:19s lap at Bathurst, someone else might struggle to do that lap time, but an alien would decimate that lap time easily.

 

[LOOS]

With a full garage, how about a tuner pick an example, post it and us mere mortals can test...

If I pick its always wrong something, track time, tune too old etc. Tuners Choice

I already know a faster driver will post faster times, tune IS NOT AS critical as some believe (key word "as") providing it's not fubarring the handling completely. Camber does not kill grip and its just as fast as without.... It's all about Handling and what feels best to the driver, and its like real life without the tire wear but y'all don't care about tire wear anyways.

The reason this debate is such a joke here is because nobody who brings in stong opinions backs it up with anything real. If Camber kills grip why is it so hard to prove it? Why do some tune with stuff like -3.5 Camber and are just as fast? Because its all BS, even when isolation test show Camber does yield more grip the falacy of grip loss is spread by Trollz.

The tuners who use Camber but add (most grip 0/0) are the biggest joke of all....

 

[super_gt]

I CHALLENGE anybody who thinks Camber can be just as fast or even faster to also tune the car and put up or shut up as they say, post the set up and lets have the cars do the talking..

One car,the same set up except the camber.
Two drivers,the one who believes that camber works drives the set up with camber and other who believes that 0/0 is faster drives the set up with 0/0 camber.
Here's the result