Let's revisit counter-steering assist

[BallPtPenTheif]

If you're not racing with ONLY ABS on you're not nearly as good as you think. All of these aids are a joke.

The famous message board meta strategy. If you can't beat them, shame them.

I'm all for this discussion but this "Just say no to drugs!" line of rhetoric is getting silly.

 

[GTWelsh]

If you abuse it, especially with a DS4, it makes you faster. I can actually get partial wheelspin coming out of corners, really rocketing out, and not even have a wiff of a spin-out, CSA takes care of everything, there isn't even a spin to catch, it just keeps me on-line.

It's incredible. And therefor I hate it.

CSA-Strong this is, Weak is a lot less over powered.

I am a solid DR-A driver, however I was winning races with well known DR-S people in as soon as I started abusing this aid. I did it for a day or two to see how I would fair. Very well it turns out.

 

[Robben]

Okay guys, here are my results.

--
Room settings (Same for all events)
Track - Autodromo de Interlagos
Time - 13:45 (Fine Weather)
Category/car - Gr3 Dodge Viper
BoP - on
Tires - Racing hards
Tire wear/fuel consumption/damage - off
Grip reduction on Wet Track/Track edge - Real
Short cut penalty - Invalidate Time

Other information
Dr A, Sr S
Controller - T150 (Force Feedback max torque - 3; Force Feedback sensitivity - 5)
---------------------------------------------------------------

Session 1 - The control test (My normal settings)
TC - 2
Active Stability Management - off
Countersteering Assist - off
ABS - default

Lap 1 - 1:33.455
Lap 2 - 1:45.157 (Spin)
Lap 3 - 1:33.495
Lap 4 - 1:32.632
Lap 5 - 1:33.642

Notes: I received cutting for two consecutive laps between laps 4 and 5. Between the spin and the penalties I was disappointed with my lack of consistency, so I reran the control in session 4.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Session 2 - The weak test
TC - 2
Active Stability Management - off
Countersteering Assist - weak
ABS - default

Lap 1 - 1:32.499
Lap 2 - 1:33.120
Lap 3 - 1:32.968
Lap 4 - 1:32.734
Lap 5 - 1:33.247

Notes - Right away I noticed my wheel felt heavier, but it seemed smoother. When on kerbs, I experienced basically zero grip reduction.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Session 3 - The strong test
TC - 2
Active Stability Management - off
Countersteering Assist - strong
ABS - default

Lap 1 - 1:32.890
Lap 2 - 1:32.358
Lap 3 - 1:32.643
Lap 4 - 1:32.508
Lap 5 - 1:32.635

Notes - I was not a fan of the feeling of the car. It was fast, but there was a good amount of understeer. I felt a lot of "push/loose" where the car would not turn and finally it would bite, but then the rear tires would slip...There was also a noticeable amount of general retardation of game physics. I felt like I could have been t-boned by a dump truck going 200mph, and I probably would not have spun out.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Session 4 - The control test (Again)
TC - 2
Active Stability Management - off
Countersteering Assist - off
ABS - default

Lap 1 - 1:32.519
Lap 2 - 1:33.384
Lap 3 - 1:33.007
Lap 4 - 1:33.256
Lap 5 - 1:33.082

Notes - Much more consistency this time around.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Best lap results -
Session 1 (Control one) 1:32.632 (4th)
Session 2 (CSA weak) 1:32.499 (2nd)
Session 3 (CSA strong) 1:32.358 (1st)
Session 4 (Control two) 1:32.519 (3rd)

---------------------------------------------------------------

Discussion and important notes about the testing - This test was all about top speed so no mean lap times were calculated, and this is why fuel consumption and tire wear were left off. The results show CSA seems to increase my lap times by a few tenths. One thing I would like to note is today's test was the first ever time I had run laps in a lobby. I tried my best to mimic sport mode settings, and saved those settings to assure the settings were the same for each session. I reset the room after each session to reset cones which were occasionally knocked over. However, I am slightly suspicious of my times because my best ever time I can remember at Interlagos was a 1:32.7xx, and in each session I beat that time relatively easily. Regardless, the test still has merit because the settings and car were the same for each test.

I think CSA would help a user retain speed as tires wear, and be much less likely to spin in the event of a mistake.

How would these results differ with sports tires and/or Nx00 cars? I guess we would need someone else to test that with more experience on them than me. I would not be fit to test it because I cannot assure consistency as well as I can with this test as it is my best car/track.

I can't help but feel like I am cheating when I am using CSA. Even on weak, it feels like I've modded the cars grip. I am not sure if I will use it in sport mode...

Good work, bud.

Weird though as I tend to find CSA and TCS make a mess of each other. I find it works well with RWD cars that I can mange with TCS off (Genesis and 86).

Maybe it's to do with feel though, as the feel of CSA strong is just plain odd. Perhaps if I persevered and got to know the car with CSA Strong it would ultimately be better...

Still, it's not going to magically make you a top 10 driver (as others say).

 

[mthomas_95]

The only times I've raced with it on are with the karts and Gr1 Bugatti and I've never felt having it off has hindered me in any of my top lobby races. In the Gr3/4 cars it causes me more hassle because I naturally countersteer anyway with the DS4, so I end up battling it. If it gains you anything, it's a couple of tenths at most in certain cars (mostly road cars).

If it was as OP as some suggest you'd never be within half a second of the Top 10 with it off even as an alien, which is ridiculous considering half the Top 10's I see in Europe are with it off. I believe it was prohibited anyway in the Canadian finals (along with TCS), so for the competitive events getting used to it off is an advantage you should keep!

 

[TheGeologist]

Good work, bud.

Weird though as I tend to find CSA and TCS make a mess of each other. I find it works well with RWD cars that I can mange with TCS off (Genesis and 86).

Maybe it's to do with feel though, as the feel of CSA strong is just plain odd. Perhaps if I persevered and got to know the car with CSA Strong it would ultimately be better...

Still, it's not going to magically make you a top 10 driver (as others say).

I may try again with TC off to see how that affects the times. I had to go be an adult though, so I didn't have time to test it.

My experience with the Viper Gr3 with TC off is extreme wheel spin upon the slightest acceleration. I'm fine in high speed corners, but when I frequently spin (suddenly and severely) upon trying to accelerate off slow corners. I don't know how much this would be affected by CSA.

 

[Robben]

I may try again with TC off to see how that affects the times. I had to go be an adult though, so I didn't have time to test it.

My experience with the Viper Gr3 with TC off is extreme wheel spin upon the slightest acceleration. I'm fine in high speed corners, but when I frequently spin (suddenly and severely) upon trying to accelerate off slow corners. I don't know how much this would be affected by CSA.

Not at all for mortals like you and I

I thought I'd try it with the Lexus the other day after getting a bit overconfident.. so I started the lap, went round T1, then coming out of a slow corner (T2 Maggiore) I just spun..... and spun... and spun.

 

[mirial]

This seems to be the rule now when it comes to competitive lap times on the leaderboards, especially in the Europe/ME/Africa region. Is this simply the accepted norm now?

Those that use it, how do you justify using it? Is it simply faster?

I'm kind of struggling to understand it. I guess I'm a purist then? I just hate the feeling of driving with it on, but if that's what everyone seems to be doing then I guess I'll have to fold eventually. Also, what are your thoughts on this being allowed for the upcoming official tournaments?

I think that's why we did PURE back in the day!

It's true there isn't much feel when the rears are about to let go, but the break-away is nothing as bad as many think it is. I think it's a generational thing too as younger users have less shame in using assists, and don't have the same interest or fascination as older generations do (I was fascinated with this stuff when I was 18, as were others) and therefore don't have the insight and understanding into what it takes to be very very good. It's a bit negative yes, but I've tried to alleviate this by posting invaluable tips on how to correct problems and become better, but the interest just isn't there. It's much easier to switch on the assists, but over time, you become complacent and it takes the sharpness off your driving and you don't learn anything.

I know many guys who aren't aliens and accept the disadadvantage of no assists because they may not be like Max or Lewis, but they still persist without CSA or TC, which is to be commended.

My original background was RC cars, and there were some awesome drivers at National level who could drive like Lewis or Schuey and who could compete at European and World level, and if they didn't inspire anyone to become better, then nobody would. The most popular categories in GTS like Gr.4 for example, seem to attract all the pro sim racers that have a huge following, and I have to say, Gr.4 while competitive, doesn't exactly set the conditions to do any inspired and exciting laps.

 

[kilesa4568]

I would say it's the opposite... qualifying can be done over 7 laps or 77 laps, there is no risk of going off track or anything else.
Where as racing is all about your ultimate car control, where you may not get to run the racing line you have practiced, you need to adjust braking points for other road users, need to make adjustments on the fly etc etc

I'll never defend CSA in race nor qualifying, it is what it is though (the driving version of aimbot)

Race pace is usually a fair bit slower than qualifying. From what I've seen anyway as it's a rare privilege to get the optimum line.

The countless times I've been hit by a sliding car will always make me think that CSA is a good thing (for those who need it) in races though. We all go over 100% in races from time to time and there's usually some contact when we do as we've got borderline control. If CSA limits that contact even slightly, I'm fine with it.

Just so you know, I don't use it at all. The only true sense of where I think I am on pace has to be (ABS only) assist free, as in needing to know my own limit, not the game's. I have to drive a little more passively because of it but then that means I don't need to use CSA.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Well it definitely helps in RWD cars. I can be fast with it in most Gr.3 cars too. It helps me most when it comes to road cars that are RWD and/or oversteer prone.

I disagree with this statement. It does not "definitely" help. I have tried it many times and my laps times are on par at best or slower at worst. I have yet to be able to go exceptionally faster with it on. Any tenth I gain with it on, I can eclipse with it off and paying attention to my line. Those who say it makes you "definitely" faster are simply not accustomed to driving without it. I find it simply intervenes too much with what I am trying to get the car to do.

It might gain some consistency for some, but again, it's not universal.

Then I must be truly terrible since I use TCS1 & CSA and consider myself to be a below average racer.

Don't know how TCS is "A Joke" when most real life racing series use them as well.

To be fair, the TCS that is in the game is not the equivalent of the TCS in real life. Real life traction control is almost unnoticeable when engaged, will make you faster, and the cars are essentially undriveable without it. The game's TCS is fully intended to be a player assistance feature and does not necessarily make you faster or render the car undriveable when turned off.

TCS almost always slows you down. In the F1 car, it will take seconds off your lap time if you leave it on.



Did it ever occur to anyone that the reason it's on for so many is because the default setting for "expert" controls is to have it on? The same goes for TCS. It's the default, which means a lot of people will play the game as is.

 

[John Crellin]

I am a DS4 user and I use CSA on weak for certain GR.3 cars and the Porsche 919. It doesnt change my lap times at all but helps me keep it together in some tricky corners like the dipper on Bathurst or Dunlop on Suzuka when tires start to go or I clip the edge of the track.

In honesty, I wouldn't care one way or the other if they banned it or not. I dont think it helps people be faster but instead helps consistency which IMO is not a bad thing. I hate when someone is pushing past to overtake me and loses it in a corner and takes me out. Id rather them have CSA on than ruin my race.

And all these comparisons to real life are ridiculous. The tiny corrections that CSA weak makes are barely noticeable to a RL driver mainly because cars correct themselves. When I take my real car out for a drive and I let go of the wheel mid corner the car corrects to straight on its own, that's just physics of proper tire alignment. If i let go of the controller mid corner the controller hits the floor, my car is lost. So I see CSA as a mimicking the physics of RL tire alignment.

 

[dabz343]

It's much easier to switch on the assists, but over time, you become complacent and it takes the sharpness off your driving and you don't learn anything.

I agree completely and to all those that are aspiring in some way to translate GTS into a real career, these assists can be a major pitfall and you are setting yourself up for a rude awakening. Everyone has an opportunity to hone your race knowledge/senses on GTS, and if you are serious about leveraging this platform to one day make a professional debut IN REAL LIFE (or a weekend at http://www.speedventures.com/), I'd advise you take full advantage of it and invite the pain, not run from it.

Of course for the majority of drivers that look to GTS for casual enjoyment, dive headfirst into assists and anything else that makes it enjoyable.

 

[simsimsheree]

I think it is pretty much PD's way of hiding the terrible tire and physics models in GTS. Tires, once they lose their grip, never regain it realistically. Minor step-outs quickly become major spins. CSA mitigates this by avoiding many of the minor step-outs.

However, we are also showing a bit of amnesia. GT6 also allowed all aids initially, then gradually started restricting them. PD are in their profit-taking period, making the game as easy as possible for new and inexperienced players, no matter if that ticks off the experienced ones. Plus they are doing their level best to distract from the (IMHO) huge backwards steps in handling feel and tire grip from GT6.

But history shows us, as the casual players lose interest for whatever is the newest arcade racer, PD will disable allowed aids much more.

 

[Stotty]

I agree completely and to all those that are aspiring in some way to translate GTS into a real career, these assists can be a major pitfall and you are setting yourself up for a rude awakening. Everyone has an opportunity to hone your race knowledge/senses on GTS, and if you are serious about leveraging this platform to one day make a professional debut IN REAL LIFE (or a weekend at http://www.speedventures.com/), I'd advise you take full advantage of it and invite the pain, not run from it.

Of course for the majority of drivers that look to GTS for casual enjoyment, dive headfirst into assists and anything else that makes it enjoyable.

You're not seriously saying GTS can have an influence on someones ability to drive a real car, are you?

 

[dabz343]

You're not seriously saying GTS can have an influence on someones ability to drive a real car, are you?

Surely you are NOT serious when suggesting that GTS has absolutely no influence on real world application? We are not talking FIFA here.

 

[Mirror_man]

I see both sides of the issue and both have their merits. I'm for CSA, if it helps even the field, keeps races competitive,and makes the game fun. I'm against it because it does lower the bar a bit. I have a bigger issue with totally unrealistic off-track or on-wall physics where a player will be all.over the place bouncing off walls, going off track...and somehow is faster!?

r
A simple way to set this issue... very simple indeed... For daily races (ONLY) : For Players with DR A or S, CSA should no be possible to use... that way all top players would feel that they are playing by the same "rules" ... (another option would be for A players only Weak CSA allowed, and for S none! )

 

[mirial]

You're not seriously saying GTS can have an influence on someones ability to drive a real car, are you?

Before GT, I did the whole Jim Russell thing with the very insightful John Kirkpatrick, and Journeyman would have been a compliment for me at the end of the week

I also remember years ago, having had a few years of GT and just indoor karting behind me, how easy it was to be on the pace in a Rotax 125, both in the wet and dry in about half an hour on a track I didn't know.

If someone provided me with a kart to do a club race at the weekend, I'd jump at chance and be damn confident I'd be near the front after about an hour's practice wet or dry.

When it comes to assists, I'd much prefer them to be banned, except for weak ABS, but to allow settings, and then the drivers who are less comfortable with oversteer would have a chance to set their cars up to be fast and to be easy to drive in the races to be competitive. That's the culture PD should be trying to create IMO. If anyone remembers, Prost not renowned for his outright qualifying pace, was untouchable with the right setup in races, and Senna knew that

 

[John Crellin]

You're not seriously saying GTS can have an influence on someones ability to drive a real car, are you?

http://www.thedrive.com/watch-this/...ow-gran-turismo-skills-translate-to-the-track

 

[Jumbone1]

CSA on strong with TCS off is the most effective for me especially in Grp3 upwards. On road cars I'm faster without CSA as tyres are able to slip more and rotate the car.

I've stopped using CSA as although can be faster is too disruptive and ruins the character of each car, they start to feel and respond the same.

Even with CSA off on a pad, it still feels as if its on a little and gently helps to correct the first onset of oversteer.

 

[Stotty]

Surely you are NOT serious when suggesting that GTS has absolutely no influence on real world application? We are not talking FIFA here.

Before GT, I did the whole Jim Russell thing with the very insightful John Kirkpatrick, and Journeyman would have been a compliment for me at the end of the week

I also remember years ago, having had a few years of GT and just indoor karting behind me, how easy it was to be on the pace in a Rotax 125, both in the wet and dry in about half an hour on a track I didn't know.

If someone provided me with a kart to do a club race at the weekend, I'd jump at chance and be damn confident I'd be near the front after about an hour's practice wet or dry.

http://www.thedrive.com/watch-this/...ow-gran-turismo-skills-translate-to-the-track

A lot of real life driving/track driving experience might help you go faster in video games, but the other way round? Not a hope in hell.

And saying stuff like 'don't use aids in GTS as it will limit your driving ability in real life' is just laughable.

Video games are great as an approximation of real track driving... good fun and all that... but they are in no way finitely accurate, and can't replicate the most important piece of real driving - the feeling of the weight moving you get through multiple senses in real life.

 

[John Crellin]

You're not seriously saying GTS can have an influence on someones ability to drive a real car, are you?

Video games are great as an approximation of real track driving... good fun and all that... but they are in no way finitely accurate, and can't replicate the most important piece of real driving - the feeling of the weight moving you get through multiple senses in real life.

the bolded statements are all i was trying to say with the article i linked

Oh and to be picky... if they are in any way accurate, even the slightest bit, then they are by definition "finitely accurate"

 

[Sean Renon]

A lot of real life driving/track driving experience might help you go faster in video games, but the other way round? Not a hope in hell.

And saying stuff like 'don't use aids in GTS as it will limit your driving ability in real life' is just laughable.

Video games are great as an approximation of real track driving... good fun and all that... but they are in no way finitely accurate, and can't replicate the most important piece of real driving - the feeling of the weight moving you get through multiple senses in real life.

I would disagree.


I'm not saying that driving on SIMs will turn you into a professional race car driver, but pretending that somebody who spends thousands of hours practicing on SIMs wouldn't be a better driver than somebody who doesn't is foolish imo.

 

[dabz343]

A lot of real life driving/track driving experience might help you go faster in video games, but the other way round? Not a hope in hell.

Many would differ with your assessment, let's just leave it at that.

 

[simsimsheree]

I'm not saying that driving on SIMs will turn you into a professional race car driver, but pretending that somebody who spends thousands of hours practicing on SIMs wouldn't be a better driver than somebody who doesn't is foolish imo.

I really feel this is akin to saying that someone who put in thousands of hours on Guitar Hero with the guitar 'controller' would be a better guitarist if he got on stage with Metallica than someone who hadn't.

I regret to say, no, both would suck!

Maybe iRacing, rFactor, perhaps even PC2 (not so much, mind you), but GT Sport? Sorry, but no. Not even close.

 

[inri]

This seems to be the rule now when it comes to competitive lap times on the leaderboards, especially in the Europe/ME/Africa region. Is this simply the accepted norm now?

Those that use it, how do you justify using it? Is it simply faster?

I'm kind of struggling to understand it. I guess I'm a purist then? I just hate the feeling of driving with it on, but if that's what everyone seems to be doing then I guess I'll have to fold eventually. Also, what are your thoughts on this being allowed for the upcoming official tournaments?

it helps with consistency which if you ask me is a good thing for both yourself and your opponents in a public daily race, i don't know about outright faster though. but it isn't slower either. i use it but i could take it or leave it

 

[Sean Renon]

I really feel this is akin to saying that someone who put in thousands of hours on Guitar Hero with the guitar 'controller' would be a better guitarist if he got on stage with Metallica than someone who hadn't.

I regret to say, no, both would suck!

Maybe iRacing, rFactor, perhaps even PC2 (not so much, mind you), but GT Sport? Sorry, but no. Not even close.

I'm not trying to argue that the physics are identical to real life - but if I spent 1000 hours driving around Brands Hatch GP in GT:Sport and then you stuck me on that track in real life next to an average person you're telling me that nothing I've learned from my 1000 hours in GT:Sport would translate to real life? And that I probably wouldn't be quicker than the other person?

Keep in mind I'm driving with a wheel/pedals, not a controller.

 

[simsimsheree]

I'm not trying to argue that the physics are identical to real life - but if I spent 1000 hours driving around Brands Hatch GP in GT:Sport and then you stuck me on that track in real life next to an average person you're telling me that nothing I've learned from my 1000 hours in GT:Sport would translate to real life?

Keep in mind I'm driving with a wheel/pedals, not a controller.

Sure, track knowledge. But car handling? IMHO, less now than even GT6.

The game can teach track knowledge, racing rules and etiquette (if the player reads up about them and races clean League lobbies, not Sport Mode, because the game itself doesn't seem to be helping in the slightest, there!), but beyond that, IMHO, unless you are talking someone who has very little real life road driving experience as your opponent, no. I don't find even the slightest similarity between real car/tire handling and GTS's utter fiction.

 

[Spurgy 777]

A lot of real life driving/track driving experience might help you go faster in video games, but the other way round? Not a hope in hell.

Hmm, I'm not so sure, there are a lot of transferable skills that you can develop with sim racing such as learning proper racing lines, braking points, throttle control and general car control. Learning all of those things on a game definitely help you IRL, but at the same time those skills are only really useful for getting up to speed when you do get on track and I don't think they will have much of a bearing on your ultimate pace.

Reminds me of one seemingly useless skill I picked up playing on GT5 dirty NASCAR lobbies and that's controlling a 360 degree spin. I managed to learn the best brake and steering inputs to more often than not get the car pointing in the right direction when the car spins right round on me and I've used that skill to do exactly the same IRL on a number of occasions, one time just about kept me from putting it in the wall. But I'll admit that doesn't really help me go any quicker.

And saying stuff like 'don't use aids in GTS as it will limit your driving ability in real life' is just laughable.

I definitely agree with this though, using driving aids in a game is in no way going to limit your IRL abilities.

 

[Sean Renon]

Sure, track knowledge. But car handling? IMHO, less now than even GT6.

The game can teach track knowledge, racing rules and etiquette (if the player reads up about them and races clean League lobbies, not Sport Mode, because the game itself doesn't seem to be helping in the slightest, there!), but beyond that, IMHO, unless you are talking someone who has very little real life road driving experience as your opponent, no. I don't find even the slightest similarity between real car/tire handling and GTS's utter fiction.

That was the only point I was trying to make, that using a SIM (like GT:Sport) can help you become a better driver. Not that you'll be driving the same pace in real life as you do on GT:Sport.

 

[simsimsheree]

OTOH, get on a track that isn't in the game, I wouldn't put your chances any higher than the guy who never plays at all.

 

[Sean Renon]

OTOH, get on a track that isn't in the game, I wouldn't put your chances any higher than the guy who never plays at all.

I think the SIM driver would still understand basic things like car control, driving lines, brake/throttle control to a certain degree.
It's the same reason why you can learn a lot of things by watching other people doing that same thing.