Let's revisit counter-steering assist

[Scaff]

I'm not trying to argue that the physics are identical to real life - but if I spent 1000 hours driving around Brands Hatch GP in GT:Sport and then you stuck me on that track in real life next to an average person you're telling me that nothing I've learned from my 1000 hours in GT:Sport would translate to real life? And that I probably wouldn't be quicker than the other person?

Keep in mind I'm driving with a wheel/pedals, not a controller.

You would adapt quicker and your track knowledge would be better.

However quite a few issues would still remain coming from GTS.

The track surface and it's impact on how you take corners would need a major readjustment, as Brands is far bumpier in reality, and the camber on a number of corners on top of that are very different. Sheena curves for example.

Now add in that braking in GTS doesn't unsettle a car anything close to the amount it should, and that the FFB is missing quite a bit if detail (most evident over the rise at Paddock Hill and in the various compressions) is not quite the head start it might seem.

Someone without GTS experience may take longer to get to speed, but it could be also argued that they stand less chance of binning it due to reality being not as forgiving as GTS is at times.

 

[John Crellin]

OTOH, get on a track that isn't in the game, I wouldn't put your chances any higher than the guy who never plays at all.

Disagree here, knowing the details of a track and its layout removes some of the challenges associated with racing.

Ill bet that if you were to go to lets say Bathurst on a track day, the fact that you know the track layout, the driving lines, the braking points, common pitfalls, etc would make it a hell of a lot easier to drive. You might have to learn the car your driving, and everything associated with that, but it would be a lot easier than having to completely learn the track from scratch at the same time.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I think it is pretty much PD's way of hiding the terrible tire and physics models in GTS. Tires, once they lose their grip, never regain it realistically. Minor step-outs quickly become major spins. CSA mitigates this by avoiding many of the minor step-outs.

Again, disagreement. "Minor" step outs do not become major spins. Minor step outs with CSA off remain minor step outs. If you step out so much that you are on the verge of spinning, or you spin, that's a major step out. A drift, for instance, is a major step out.

Disagree here, knowing the details of a track and its layout removes some of the challenges associated with racing.

Ill bet that if you were to go to lets say Bathurst on a track day, the fact that you know the track layout, the driving lines, the braking points, common pitfalls, etc would make it a hell of a lot easier to drive. You might have to learn the car your driving, and everything associated with that, but it would be a lot easier than having to completely learn the track from scratch at the same time.

Yup, there is a reason racers play games. Knowing which way the track goes and what comes next is a big deal.

I've scared myself silly in the real world trying to learn a track.


As for CSA and TCS, they are both GAME assists meant to help players who may not have enough skill to play the game without assists. Seems obvious, no? It should then come as no surprise that players find that they can go faster with the assists on, or that they find the cars uncontrollable with the assists off. That doesn't mean that this is an infinite experience and that everyone goes faster because of the aids.

I turned them off on day 1 and haven't used them for any car since. I don't have issues with any of the Gr 3 or Gr 1 cars. You just adapt to them.

 

[Voodoovaj]

delete - double post

 

[UGA95]

A lot of real life driving/track driving experience might help you go faster in video games, but the other way round? Not a hope in hell

Perhaps you should do a little research on William Byron.

 

[_ApexPredator]

A lot of real life driving/track driving experience might help you go faster in video games, but the other way round? Not a hope in hell.

Perhaps you should do a little research on William Byron.

and Mitchell Dejong.
Plus, largely a marketing stunt I don't doubt, but Lincolnshire Police apparently reported positive results from sticking their pursuit drivers on a GT Academy style dayout.

 

[DriftMethod]

I didn't use CSA for a long time, until I read a heated debate about it on an earlier thread. Now I use it quite a bit. Does it make me faster? Yeah maybe a little, but it makes me more consistent in races where I might be off the racing line near other cars. I could take it or leave it, but if it's available, I'll use it on cars with oversteer.

As far as GT helping with driving in real life, it depends on what you mean. Will it help Lewis Hamilton? Highly unlikely. Will it help someone who has little to no experience with racing lines, braking points, etc.? Yes. Just imagine putting someone on a track who has no idea what a racing line is. Want to run a non-scientific experiment? Take a bunch of kids who have never driven a car before to a rental kart facility. My bet is the ones who have played GT or other racing games will have on average better times than those who haven't.

 

[phil_75]

There are players and there are drivers. It's as easy as that. (Matching should respect that also - by the way.)

Perfectly put.

My only issue is with fast drivers using it.
CSA should be banned for DR S.

 

[Krypton78]

but totally negates the need to improve their skill cos, hey... CSA will fix that right!!

Thats the point. If you always use CSA, you won't really improve.

But, to be honest, I'm using it in the race. Not prior to be faster, but because I'm simply not good enough to guarantee not to spin off during the whole race.

Its risky enough to be ruined from a mistake from others, and the last thing I want is to ruin myself

 

[Alfabob46]

Surely the fact that CSA is defult on beginner and intermediate settings must tell you something, right?
But this thread is about peoples opinions,
I think for a controller user it's a great aid and will help bridge the gap between pad and wheel users.
And should be available for pad users of all ranks in daily races.
As for wheel users in daily races it should only be available up to rank DR B.
Once you get to DR A and S you should be at a high enough level of skill to be able to drive without it and be able to do 10 laps. If not that's what practise is for.

As for games helping IRL, it's a help to understand the track layout etc but nothing beats bum in seat on track time.
I've done 100s and 100s of laps in games at Donnigton but even after a day there on track I was still learning and getting quicker on the last run of the day.
And yeah the reality of stacking your car down Craners helps keep things in check.
Once the rear steps out, even just a little bit at over 100mph going down there it's reality check time, real life driving isn't a game theres no reset to track or retry option.

 

[DriftMethod]

Perfectly put.

My only issue is with fast drivers using it.
CSA should be banned for DR S.

Uh oh. We're getting dangerously close to the cockpit view argument.

 

[FPV MIC]

As far as I know, in motorsport it's the drivers job to get the car round the track as fast as he can using all means at his disposal, ...so that's what I do. Sometimes I'll use one or a combination of CSA/ASM/TC/ABS and sometimes I'll use ABS only, but I never think that whatever I choose makes others better or worse drivers than me.

 

[kjeldsen]

The big issue with these aids are the lack of cost when you use them. Imho every added aid should result in a slightly slower car. Preferably by a reduction in acceleration.

Imho the advantages are to big. And it's only thanks to gts solid matchmaking that you rarely experience the drawbacks of not using them.
When i use them i feel like i have an advantage over the other drivers in the field..

 

[HellzFire]

I despise assists. Would even turn abs off if my competitors on the race did too.

 

[ColinNZ]

The game is designed to be played and enjoyed by anyone who owns a PS4. This means it must be fully playable on the default DS4 controller, which is almost impossible to manually counter-steer with. Thus the game sets weak CSA as default.

 

[phil_75]

The game is designed to be played and enjoyed by anyone who owns a PS4. This means it must be fully playable on the default DS4 controller, which is almost impossible to manually counter-steer with. Thus the game sets weak CSA as default.

I and many others play on DS4 and have no problem.
People don't want to learn and put the work in.

 

[TamasToth]

My only issue is with fast drivers using it.

Ooops, you mean: fast _players_...

 

[Spurgy 777]

I and many others play on DS4 and have no problem.
People don't want to learn and put the work in.

That’s because it’s a game and the majority of people don’t want to have to put lots of work in just to be able to drive the cars.

 

[kjeldsen]

The game is designed to be played and enjoyed by anyone who owns a PS4. This means it must be fully playable on the default DS4 controller, which is almost impossible to manually counter-steer with. Thus the game sets weak CSA as default.

That is not the question, for me the issue is that the aids are a shortcut to faster times with less practice.

For example, without ABS i would have a mountain to climb, the same with TCS. But i would be 100% ok with being slower with the aids on than off.
The way it works now is that i have to decide how i approach the competition, do i consider someone as fast as me with all aids on a fair competitor or do i think it is cheating? I am somewhere in between..

I have tried a few times with TCS=0 i would have to invest many laps before i was able to match my current speed and ABS would be just as hard.
What i am trying to say is that the difficulty level for every driver varies but we get the same rewards and competes as if we were playing on the same difficulty level. It would make sense that you had to learn to drive without aids in order to rise through the ranks. It would also be a great way of getting a stronger feeling of progression.

 

[Veinz]

I hope it gets removed from Sport Mode tbh.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

I and many others play on DS4 and have no problem.
People don't want to learn and put the work in.

I've been playing this game since PS2 and the wrong car on the wrong track is a nightmare without CSA. Could I manage it, sure but I would basically be playing Russian roulette tapping the car to guide it in place and just letting it settle and hoping the weight is in the right spot before the turn. Many times I would be juggling the weight left and right heading into a turn due to minor twitch inputs into the stick.

No thanks, I'd rather have the game offset my twitchy input and just race. That being said, it shouldn't be yielding faster times. Saving my car from twitching down a straight should come at a slight price.

 

[PirovacBoy]

I honestly don’t get why people rant about CSA. I mean it was proven many times that using CSA will gain a skilled top player a max of let’s say 2-3tenths ok?!
The ones that will take most advantage of it will be the less skilled players, and i‘m Fine with that. A lot of players don’t have the time to fiddle and practice it over and over again. They are aware that their skills are maybe limited and therefore they use CSA I guess. It’s an aid to provide the casual players a help I see no problem there.
Well I agree top players shouldn’t use it as they actually don’t need it, but, if you want to be competitive in higher ranks and a bit more constant during longer races and the others use it too, would you limit yourself?!
I don’t need it, but if it helps, why not?
I don’t care if someone uses it in a race against me or not, and I neither feel better beating someone who used it nor do I feel worse loosing against someone who used it. As long as the races are clean and fair i‘m Good with or without it.
I don’t have to say that I respect a players skill more who doesn’t use it as I know that it takes much more to drive on the edge without it, but at the end of the day it’s really just a Videogame, seriously

 

[Sean Renon]

I honestly don’t get why people rant about CSA. I mean it was proven many times that using CSA will gain a skilled top player a max of let’s say 2-3tenths ok?!
The ones that will take most advantage of it will be the less skilled players, and i‘m Fine with that. A lot of players don’t have the time to fiddle and practice it over and over again. They are aware that their skills are maybe limited and therefore they use CSA I guess. It’s an aid to provide the casual players a help I see no problem there.
Well I agree top players shouldn’t use it as they actually don’t need it, but, if you want to be competitive in higher ranks and a bit more constant during longer races and the others use it too, would you limit yourself?!
I don’t need it, but if it helps, why not?
I don’t care if someone uses it in a race against me or not, and I neither feel better beating someone who used it nor do I feel worse loosing against someone who used it. As long as the races are clean and fair i‘m Good with or without it.
I don’t have to say that I respect a players skill more who doesn’t use it as I know that it takes much more to drive on the edge without it, but at the end of the day it’s really just a Videogame, seriously

I think people rant about it because it's not about the speed it provides, it's the security blanket it provides without any major downside.

For example, I raced on Bathurst last night and while I'm not particularly fast - I managed a qualifying time of 2:03.8.
In the 2 races I did, I made 3 significant mistakes that spun me out, and probably 3-4 other mistakes where I had to lift/countersteer and correct that cost me at least half a second.

This is because I race with no assists (other than ABS) and it doesn't take much for me to spin out a gr.3 car on a technical circuit like Bathurst, especially when I'm racing hard.

CSA allows drivers like me to basically run at my maximum pace without the risk of making a mistake and it doesn't drastically limit my speed like TCS does.

Now, I choose to race with no assists, I like to know that at any moment I could spin out, does it bother me when I do spin out - YES, and I get frustrated - but I also know it was because of my own error that I did that. I like to know that if I'm running fast all it takes is one misstep and my race is ruined, that knife edge is what makes racing so fun for me.
If I were to enable CSA again (I used to race with it when I was new, and without a wheel) it would almost feel like cheating, like playing with a handicap in golf even though I know I don't need it.

So it really depends what each person wants out of this game, but personally I like knowing that after a successful race that I did it without the support of CSA (or TCS or ASM for that matter, I would also disable ABS like @hellZfirE said if that was more common) and that it wasn't just a race against other people but it was also a race with myself in a way.

 

[Sloppy Shades]

Wouldn't this be a non-issue if as well as grouping starting grids by DR and SR driving aids were also filtered? So the masochists who actually turn all their aids off would have other similar aliens to race fairly with and those who raced with everything including Uber autodrive would gain no advantage as they would be all in the same boat?

 

[kjeldsen]

Wouldn't this be a non-issue if as well as grouping starting grids by DR and SR driving aids were also filtered? So the masochists who actually turn all their aids off would have other similar aliens to race fairly with and those who raced with everything including Uber autodrive would gain no advantage as they would be all in the same boat?

That would just reduce the matchmaking base to a lower number, that wouldn't be healthy. It would be make much more sense to reduce the speed so that you would see a natural spread in the DR ranks.

 

[Spurgy 777]

That would just reduce the matchmaking base to a lower number, that wouldn't be healthy.

This, I don't think the vast majority of people who don't care what driving aids other people are using want the match making to be made worse just to keep the people that do care happy.

 

[Sloppy Shades]

That would just reduce the matchmaking base to a lower number, that wouldn't be healthy. It would be make much more sense to reduce the speed so that you would see a natural spread in the DR ranks.

Fair point I forgot only a few hundred were still playing the game!

This, I don't think the vast majority of people who don't care what driving aids other people are using want the match making to be made worse just to keep the people that do care happy.

Isn't the whole point of match making doing exactly that. Actually making a match in as many variables as possible?
I'm playing devils advocate here I really don't care at all myself I quit months ago.

 

[PirovacBoy]

I think people rant about it because it's not about the speed it provides, it's the security blanket it provides without any major downside.

For example, I raced on Bathurst last night and while I'm not particularly fast - I managed a qualifying time of 2:03.8.
In the 2 races I did, I made 3 significant mistakes that spun me out, and probably 3-4 other mistakes where I had to lift/countersteer and correct that cost me at least half a second.

This is because I race with no assists (other than ABS) and it doesn't take much for me to spin out a gr.3 car on a technical circuit like Bathurst, especially when I'm racing hard.

CSA allows drivers like me to basically run at my maximum pace without the risk of making a mistake and it doesn't drastically limit my speed like TCS does.

Now, I choose to race with no assists, I like to know that at any moment I could spin out, does it bother me when I do spin out - YES, and I get frustrated - but I also know it was because of my own error that I did that. I like to know that if I'm running fast all it takes is one misstep and my race is ruined, that knife edge is what makes racing so fun for me.
If I were to enable CSA again (I used to race with it when I was new, and without a wheel) it would almost feel like cheating, like playing with a handicap in golf even though I know I don't need it.

So it really depends what each person wants out of this game, but personally I like knowing that after a successful race that I did it without the support of CSA (or TCS or ASM for that matter, I would also disable ABS like @hellZfirE said if that was more common) and that it wasn't just a race against other people but it was also a race with myself in a way.

I absolutely get what you mean. Each to their own. If it gives you the most satisfaction go for it. But others maybe have a different approach to their satisfaction, and therefore I wouldn’t ban any aid at all. It’s about having a huge player base, so everyone should have the right to choose which aids he wants/needs or doesn’t.
Let’s take me for example.
I always religiously drive in Cockpit View with no HUD and just ABS. Now I imagine someone tries to restrict me to use bumper Cam because,just for example,he claims I have a better apex view or whatever. Or sayin I cheat because I use ABS and it’s unfair because it takes much more skill to drive without it(in fact it does).
And therefore i‘m just tryin to say everyone has his/her preferences and restricting me to something isn’t necessary. I want to feel free to choose to play the Game how I want to get my personal satisfaction.
I personally don’t judge players only by their skills, but even more by their fairness.
The one and only way to test a players skill is by having strict Lobby settings for all and we have that already. There I can compete against similar minded people.
But Sport Mode is meant to be played by a large audience skilled/less skilled players. I accept it how it is and enjoy it or leave. It’s my choice. And i‘ve Chosen to leave and focus on private Lobbies with strict settings.

 

[Spurgy 777]

Isn't the whole point of match making doing exactly that. Actually making a match in as many variables as possible?
I'm playing devils advocate here I really don't care at all myself I quit months ago.

The only variables that should be used are those that give a direct representation of a drivers ability. That is what DR and SR does, they're a representation of how well you've done in previous races, if I were to tell you that a driver has a DR and SR of S you would immediately know that they are a good driver. The same cannot be said with driving aids, they give no indication as to how good a driver is and therefore shouldn't be taken into account when match making otherwise all you end up doing is separating people who would otherwise be evenly matched. The fact that they're evenly matched because one is using a driving aid is irrelevant for the vast majority of people, most people are only interested in having a close race.

 

[kjeldsen]

Fair point I forgot only a few hundred were still playing the game!


Isn't the whole point of match making doing exactly that. Actually making a match in as many variables as possible?
I'm playing devils advocate here I really don't care at all myself I quit months ago.

With a game that runs some 200ish game pr 24 hours in a few regions you absolutely needs to keep the base you matchmake from as high as possible if you want to keep it fun for the players. Matchmaking primary job is set up a race where as many as possible will feel they get to race. From what i can see it does this by making sure there are other players that are as fast/slow as you. Making drivers with aids slower would not influence this by a huge amount, at least that would be my guess.