Let's revisit counter-steering assist

[Voodoovaj]

This whole argument is purely perceptual as far as I can tell.


I would love to see fast laps with these aids on and count the number of times the aids light up. I am willing to wager that the faster the lap, the fewer times the aids kick in, ergo meaning that they are not making anyone faster.

As for this pure nonsense call for them being removed from Sport Mode, first it will never happen because both are integral to the game so it's a moot point. Second, it's available so use it or don't. Do what makes YOU fastest and stop worrying about what your opponents are doing. Lastly, if this is a debate about "real" driving, go hop into a high powered race car in real life and TRY to turn the aids off and drive it fast. Reality will slap you in the face pretty hard.

Maybe there should be a pole of of DR rating and CSA opinion. Sounds to me like the lower the DR, the more CSA is to blame for one's own failings.

 

[nissman]

There have been many debates on this topic so this time I'll just leave this picture here.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

I would love to see fast laps with these aids on and count the number of times the aids light up. I am willing to wager that the faster the lap, the fewer times the aids kick in, ergo meaning that they are not making anyone faster..

I regards to a normal racing line, I'd be apt to agree with you. I think the issue though (someone please correct me if I'm mistaken) is that some drivers are exploiting the aids and creating non typical racing lines that you just can't do with aids off. So if you can retain tracking with two wheels in the grass due to AIDS, then that can drastically change your exit on a turn and subsequent speed.

 

[Mirror_man]

That would just reduce the matchmaking base to a lower number, that wouldn't be healthy. It would be make much more sense to reduce the speed so that you would see a natural spread in the DR ranks.

I already suggested that in this thread (in this case just regarding this issue.. CSA!!

 

[PirovacBoy]

There have been many debates on this topic so this time I'll just leave this picture here.

super:tup:

 

[Rinsky]

The assist that do not exist in real life are put in the game with the beginners in mind as a tool to help them learn. But just like everything eles in this game if there is one hint it could make your car faster or more stable with no drawbacks then out come the people to take full advantage of it.
It seems most are not worried about or even into the challenges that comes along with no assist. It's all about that top 10 lap time or winning that Sport Mode race at all cost and people will use any assist or the new cheat of the month to obtain that goal.

The days of racing with no assist or with very few assist and dealing with all the hard challenges associated with that are slowly coming to and end. Nowadays people want it all without having to put any work into it.

They should just go ahead and start making the game that easy from the beginning. Bring back all the fake assist that have been in GT throughout the years, bring back the grip bug and the tire healing bug. Give the people a GT where it is absolutely impossible to mess up. Why even bother to make the game a challenge anymore when the first thing most people do is look for away around it and once they find it they will defend using it with there life.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I regards to a normal racing line, I'd be apt to agree with you. I think the issue though (someone please correct me if I'm mistaken) is that some drivers are exploiting the aids and creating non typical racing lines that you just can't do with aids off. So if you can retain tracking with two wheels in the grass due to AIDS, then that can drastically change your exit on a turn and subsequent speed.

I've never seen this in practice in actual races. Yes, I have seen people take massive liberties with the track boundaries to get into the top ten, but the game doesn't specifically reward you for your top 10 time, so who cares?

An argument can be made that it gives you a better starting position I suppose.

Although, I know a few players that can consistently replicate this behaviour without aids, so again, I think crying foul on the aids is more of a crutch for people to lean on when they are stumped as to why they can't achieve better results.

 

[mthomas_95]

Come to think of it I wouldn't mind PD briefly banning all driver aids apart from ABS for a week on Sport Mode.

When the same names top the leaderboards and final standings it'll prove how the fast guys are fast no matter what and people will have to find another aspect of their driving to moan about.

 

[TwIsTeD_83]

When an assist negates the serious effort players with no assist put on a race/qualify it is at least disheartening.
I think a nerf is needed or remove it from high ranks.

 

[superwally]

CSA would be COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY if they got rid of the stupid non-linear throttle mapping. One seems to create the need for the other.

I gave up on CSA because I would run two laps back to back that felt very similar, but one would be many tenths slower, and I never understood why. I just can't feel what the car is doing.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

The assist that do not exist in real life are put in the game with the beginners in mind as a tool to help them learn.

In regards to CSA that's not true. The Dualshock controllers have always been a poor method of steering control across all video game titles. This is evident simply in how twitchy Dualshock drivers appear in every racing game. The CSA aid is there to mediate how poorly the Dualshock functions as an input device.

I think it's great that people are learning how to smoothly control the car without aids via the Dualshock controller and they should be rewarded for that within the game via faster times.

 

[TenderLoins]

CSA would be COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY if they got rid of the stupid non-linear throttle mapping. One seems to create the need for the other.

I gave up on CSA because I would run two laps back to back that felt very similar, but one would be many tenths slower, and I never understood why. I just can't feel what the car is doing.

And the horrible stock LSD settings which we aren’t allowed to tune in sport mode.

 

[Rinsky]

In regards to CSA that's not true. The Dualshock controllers have always been a poor method of steering control across all video game titles. This is evident simply in how twitchy Dualshock drivers appear in every racing game. The CSA aid is there to mediate how poorly the Dualshock functions as an input device.

I think it's great that people are learning how to smoothly control the car without aids via the Dualshock controller and they should be rewarded for that within the game via faster times.

I can agree with you on that and I'm not really speaking about those people who use it for legitimate reason.
I'm a DS4 user and it definitely took some practice to get smooth with all assist off.

 

[John Crellin]

I love all the posts that say " I think EVERY assist should be banned...except ABS because I use that one"

If I were to enable CSA again (I used to race with it when I was new, and without a wheel) it would almost feel like cheating, like playing with a handicap in golf even though I know I don't need it.

CSA is not a handicap in golf, its more like that fancy new driver that has a sweet spot the size of a watermelon so that you never shank the ball off the tee.

 

[kjeldsen]

This whole argument is purely perceptual as far as I can tell.


I would love to see fast laps with these aids on and count the number of times the aids light up. I am willing to wager that the faster the lap, the fewer times the aids kick in, ergo meaning that they are not making anyone faster.

As for this pure nonsense call for them being removed from Sport Mode, first it will never happen because both are integral to the game so it's a moot point. Second, it's available so use it or don't. Do what makes YOU fastest and stop worrying about what your opponents are doing. Lastly, if this is a debate about "real" driving, go hop into a high powered race car in real life and TRY to turn the aids off and drive it fast. Reality will slap you in the face pretty hard.

Maybe there should be a pole of of DR rating and CSA opinion. Sounds to me like the lower the DR, the more CSA is to blame for one's own failings.

Most in your post was discussed in earlier threads and this refresh topic as well. And yet you seem to miss the poin(s).

"I would love to see fast laps"

That is not the problem. The problem is not in the top (though it turns out even some of the fastest use the easy mode out). The problem is very very simple, a level playing field. There is no doubt that for many many players enabling easy mode makes them more consistent and faster.

"ergo meaning that they are not making anyone faster",

Is simply wrong. Naturally a top 10 driver gains nothing with fancy aids, but everyone in the lower ranks are more than likely to benefit greatly.

"Do what makes YOU fastest and stop worrying about what your opponents are doing"

that is the question, Is it fair that they are able to compete with players that do not use the aids?

"Lastly, if this is a debate about "real" driving, go hop into a high powered race car in real life and TRY to turn the aids off and drive it fast."

it isn't, that debate is related to penalties :-)

 

[Sean Renon]

CSA is not a handicap in golf, its more like that fancy new driver that has a sweet spot the size of a watermelon so that you never shank the ball off the tee.
View attachment 724293

It's just meant as an analogy, you can pick it apart all you want - but the point is that it helps make the game easier and the best drivers really don't need it, but they use it anyways because it gives them an advantage.

 

[John Crellin]

It's just meant as an analogy, you can pick it apart all you want - but the point is that it helps make the game easier and the best drivers really don't need it, but they use it anyways because it gives them an advantage.

Well now we agree on that. My point is that it helps your consistency but its not the same as a handicap which gives a direct scoring advantage. CSA will make you more consistent but not faster

 

[UnkaD]

I started using this aid when I'm on DS4. It seems to be a simple TCS/ABS-style aid that just limits the front wheels turning to try and minimize their sliding. This is very helpful for using the stick with its limited range of motion and zero feedback.

It doesn't change my performance too much. I just use it to avoid the weird twitchy behavior when mistakes happen. You know, instant steering lock when you're under stress. I don't always set up my wheel due to space and convenience. And sometimes I'm just plain lazy.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

I just use it to avoid the weird twitchy behavior when mistakes happen. You know, instant steering lock when you're under stress. I don't always set up my wheel due to space and convenience. And sometimes I'm just plain lazy.

Haha

I still remember braking on De La Sarthe with the Yellowbird, wrestling 3 mini Scandinavian flick slides to the apex without washing out. Good times. Now, I'll spare the other racers and just set CSA to Weak when I play online.

 

[John Crellin]

that is the question, Is it fair that they are able to compete with players that do not use the aids?

First off CSA doesn't make you faster. Second, I bet you play with ABS, is it fair that your allowed to compete against those that turn ABS off? How about people who have steering wheels and pedals, or those that mod their equipment to make braking and throttle control easier? should they be allowed to race against me on my DS4?

Fair is what is allowed by the rules of the game.

 

[St739]

People get angry over small things if want assist use them if you don't want assist don't use them. How many high performance cars haven't got this stuff on them in in real life not many I bet

 

[Voodoovaj]

Most in your post was discussed in earlier threads and this refresh topic as well. And yet you seem to miss the poin(s).

That is not the problem. The problem is not in the top (though it turns out even some of the fastest use the easy mode out). The problem is very very simple, a level playing field. There is no doubt that for many many players enabling easy mode makes them more consistent and faster.

Is simply wrong. Naturally a top 10 driver gains nothing with fancy aids, but everyone in the lower ranks are more than likely to benefit greatly.

that is the question, Is it fair that they are able to compete with players that do not use the aids?

it isn't, that debate is related to penalties :-)

Your entire post supports EXACTLY what the aids are meant for. They are meant to be used by people as a means to compensate for a lack of skill. They are available to everyone. That is, by definition, as level a playing field as you can have. Again, that they help people at the lower end of the skill pool to play as if they are more skilled means that they are functioning as intended.

If a player were to chose not to use the tools at his or her disposal, then the burden rest on his or her shoulders alone. Each player is on their own journey and it is best each player worry about developing their own skill rather than hampering someone else.

 

[kjeldsen]

Your entire post supports EXACTLY what the aids are meant for. They are meant to be used by people as a means to compensate for a lack of skill. They are available to everyone. That is, by definition, as level a playing field as you can have. Again, that they help people at the lower end of the skill pool to play as if they are more skilled means that they are functioning as intended.

If a player were to chose not to use the tools at his or her disposal, then the burden rest on his or her shoulders alone. Each player is on their own journey and it is best each player worry about developing their own skill rather than hampering someone else.

That would be your interpretation. And since i wrote the post i would disagree. A level playing field is when everyone play by the same rules. What you are suggesting is that aids are meant to compensate for lack of skill (surprise) and that it usually evens out the skill differences (the root of the discussion), the problem is that aids helps pretty much everyone just to a different extent, leaving those that do not use aids behind or forced to enable them if they want to compete at a..... level playing field

Reducing the aid advantage wouldn't hurt anyone it would merely mean that more players were in lower ranks for a longer time before they developed the needed skills to rise up.

 

[Voodoovaj]

That would be your interpretation. And since i wrote the post i would disagree. A level playing field is when everyone play by the same rules.

Unless the aids are broken on some copies of the game, everyone IS currently "playing by the same rules". If a player takes it upon himself to not partake in all the offerings, that is their business.

What you are suggesting is that aids are meant to compensate for lack of skill (surprise) and that it usually evens out the skill differences (the root of the discussion), the problem is that aids helps pretty much everyone just to a different extent, leaving those that do not use aids behind or forced to enable them if they want to compete at a..... level playing field

You are assuming that "aids helps pretty much everyone". They do not. No one is "forced" to use them to compete on par. If a player wants to go faster, they need to practice more. Practising more will gain far more than hampering other players.

Reducing the aid advantage wouldn't hurt anyone it would merely mean that more players were in lower ranks for a longer time before they developed the needed skills to rise up.

Let me paraphrase your point. There are slow drivers that use aids and there are slow drivers that do not use aids, and the slow drivers that do not use the aids are mad at the other drivers because they are not as slow when the aids are on.

The "aids advantage" belief is a myth. FULL STOP.

All this aid shaming baloney needs to stop and the folks that believe these myths should spend more time practising and less time finding fault in others. Take the time searching for other players using aids and devote it to lapping. You will go much faster, sooner.

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

I think people rant about it because it's not about the speed it provides, it's the security blanket it provides without any major downside.

For example, I raced on Bathurst last night and while I'm not particularly fast - I managed a qualifying time of 2:03.8.
In the 2 races I did, I made 3 significant mistakes that spun me out, and probably 3-4 other mistakes where I had to lift/countersteer and correct that cost me at least half a second.

This is because I race with no assists (other than ABS) and it doesn't take much for me to spin out a gr.3 car on a technical circuit like Bathurst, especially when I'm racing hard.

CSA allows drivers like me to basically run at my maximum pace without the risk of making a mistake and it doesn't drastically limit my speed like TCS does.

Now, I choose to race with no assists, I like to know that at any moment I could spin out, does it bother me when I do spin out - YES, and I get frustrated - but I also know it was because of my own error that I did that. I like to know that if I'm running fast all it takes is one misstep and my race is ruined, that knife edge is what makes racing so fun for me.
If I were to enable CSA again (I used to race with it when I was new, and without a wheel) it would almost feel like cheating, like playing with a handicap in golf even though I know I don't need it.

So it really depends what each person wants out of this game, but personally I like knowing that after a successful race that I did it without the support of CSA (or TCS or ASM for that matter, I would also disable ABS like @hellZfirE said if that was more common) and that it wasn't just a race against other people but it was also a race with myself in a way.

I once ran a league in GT6 where even ABS was off. More challenging, yes, but it was not only more fun but cleaner since everyone had to pay more attention to their car. A no-assist event would be nice to see in the future.

CSA would be COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY if they got rid of the stupid non-linear throttle mapping. One seems to create the need for the other.

I gave up on CSA because I would run two laps back to back that felt very similar, but one would be many tenths slower, and I never understood why. I just can't feel what the car is doing.

Something I noticed on my end is how CSA enabled drivers can hang onto my bumper far more than others to where I feel like I'm in their way. Yet once I'm behind them, I can keep pace or even feel like they're holding me back. I figured I was still trying to adapt to GT Sport since I've been able to compensate from not using aids with using my right foot to drive up to the limit without needing to countersteer or reduce it to a minimum.

Now with a large chunk of the throttle on a small sliver of pedal travel, that's a lot harder to achieve. I can see how CSA can allow people to mash the throttle on exit and gain a considerable advantage on those that can't apply the power they want on a consistent basis.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Now with a large chunk of the throttle on a small sliver of pedal travel, that's a lot harder to achieve. I can see how CSA can allow people to mash the throttle on exit and gain a considerable advantage on those that can't apply the power they want on a consistent basis.

When you drive the more high powered cars, having more travel to spread the power makes more sense. I would still prefer a little more throttle in the travel, but I don't find it's a big deal. Either way, as you stated "you can see' how it might help, but there is no conclusive evidence that it is a benefit across the board. For every player that uses aids like CSA, there are slower and faster players that do and do not use the aids. There is simply no broad correlation between performance and the aids.

In fact, what if AIDS OFF is the advantageous choice and the players with aids on are the ones that are hampered? Let's face it, there is nothing more than assumptions that the aids are what is keeping people on pace. But, what if instead of being the aid that allows slower drivers to keep up, what if it is slowing them down?

That's the case for me. Aids off is were I perform my best, so what happens when the tests are run and it shows that the majority of drivers who are fast are also not using aids? Then what? Should the community not then switch to campaigning for TCS 3 and CSA weak as is the expert default?

If one of the world's best drivers chimes in a says, without a doubt, that he or she would be less competitive without aids, then I will believe the aids help. Until then, it's just a bunch of people trying different things to be competitive.


And if all this is about a "level playing field" as has been stated before, then we should all be driving one car with the default game settings. Anything beyond that is searching for an advantage.

 

[Vin Sinn]

Then I must be truly terrible since I use TCS1 & CSA and consider myself to be a below average racer.

Don't know how TCS is "A Joke" when most real life racing series use them as well.

 

[Vin Sinn]

People that complain about diver assists crack me up. Better take off the FUEL aid then also in FIA. race cars nowadays can adjust more on the fly in the car than we can on this game. Wish i could adjust ride height and wedge on the fly. So, use CSA or TC if you want, most cars have that anyways now, Formula racers even have BOOST for crying out loud. I rarely use any assists, but now and then CSA is faster, although most times it is not. those of you who dont realize what current race cars are doing these days should do some research, it will blow your mind how many different drivers assists there actually are in every type of racing. we are in a new age of motorsports for sure!

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

When you drive the more high powered cars, having more travel to spread the power makes more sense. I would still prefer a little more throttle in the travel, but I don't find it's a big deal. Either way, as you stated "you can see' how it might help, but there is no conclusive evidence that it is a benefit across the board. For every player that uses aids like CSA, there are slower and faster players that do and do not use the aids. There is simply no broad correlation between performance and the aids.

In fact, what if AIDS OFF is the advantageous choice and the players with aids on are the ones that are hampered? Let's face it, there is nothing more than assumptions that the aids are what is keeping people on pace. But, what if instead of being the aid that allows slower drivers to keep up, what if it is slowing them down?

That's the case for me. Aids off is were I perform my best, so what happens when the tests are run and it shows that the majority of drivers who are fast are also not using aids? Then what? Should the community not then switch to campaigning for TCS 3 and CSA weak as is the expert default?

If one of the world's best drivers chimes in a says, without a doubt, that he or she would be less competitive without aids, then I will believe the aids help. Until then, it's just a bunch of people trying different things to be competitive.


And if all this is about a "level playing field" as has been stated before, then we should all be driving one car with the default game settings. Anything beyond that is searching for an advantage.

The results are going to vary with each individual driver. If someone is a natural who can countersteer on their own out of every corner, then why bother with aids? Alternately, one could practice steering inputs and throttle management so that they could avoid getting into excessive countersteering moments in the first place. That's the route I'm taking.

This isn't anything new since GT6 had traction control and ASM. I was able to be competitive without using those aids so CSA isn't that different in that regard. For me, the issue is they changed the way the throttle works and that is something that can't be easily dismissed. Would that mean using CSA would negate that new disadvantage? I don't know yet but it's something I may end up testing on my own.

 

[_ApexPredator]

In fact, what if AIDS OFF is the advantageous choice and the players with aids on are the ones that are hampered?

I thought this was common knowledge