Lift-off Oversteer

[AHR3EX]

I guess it is a good thing that there are maybe another component or two that react to and deal with load, other than springs, right?

Other components I use together with the springs. I don't generalize any set up & and look to every component to maximize potential at every location. If I was a Budget racer I would look to things like the alignment and roll bars to get the most out of one set of springs. I would even rubber my springs if I had to make due with only one set.

They may be two different loads, but the proportions are the same, being that scoring rates are ratios.

sigh

We're not arguing ideal springs rates.

But you are if you suggest one spring rate is ideal for every track.

 

[332i]

Sources? Is this class? This is simple stuff? Google is your friend. I am not here to prove anything lol. If you don't want to believe it or you think I am wrong, then do that. This is not some sort of thing that is hard to find or prove. This is what I learned in remedial fluid dynamics. We were going over equations regarding downforce and lift. This is also why cars that run high levels of downforce run very high spring rates. Downforce is weight in regards to how a suspension system is affected and manipulated by it.

Like I said, if you need a link for me to prove it, then look for yourself. This is why I don't post much anymore. You can be far more well informed than someone else and it doesn't matter on the internet. You're wrong until you posts links (especially me as I am notoriously blunt on here)...but I couldn't care less lol. We'll say I am wrong or that I gave up on the argument or whatever you please lol. I've done so much crap around spring rates, that I have a slight understanding as to what a damper spring functions as. I am an idiot for bothering to respond lol

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Just a light reading about springs ( from off road perspective )

http://metalcloak.blogspot.com/2013/12/understanding-suspension-spring.html

"The following information was extracted from the infamous JKOwners.com thread entitled [URL='http://www.jkowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71064']"Metalcloak Suspension Build" - the story of this thread is now legend -- A simple post by a Metalcloak customer became a firestorm against a small company (us) and how we won over even the harshest critics with simple, straightforward, tech.
Written by "Jeepineer" our co-founder and chief engineer, and the inventor of the 6Pak shock and Duroflex joint, the following was used to help us all understand coil rates better and why Metalcloak uses TRUE Dual Rate Coils.
Enjoy."[/URL]

 

[AHR3EX]

Something has become transparent

 

[332i]

Other components I use together with the springs. I don't generalize any set up & and look to every component to maximize potential at every location. If I was a Budget racer I would look to things like the alignment and roll bars to get the most out of one set of springs. I would even rubber my springs if I had to make due with only one set.



sigh



But you are if you suggest one spring rate is ideal for every track.

"Sigh"? Ok, dude. Gee...don't tell tell us that you don't belong in this conversation at this point in so many words....

 

[Scaff]

Sources? Is this class? This is simple stuff? Google is your friend. I am not here to prove anything lol. If you don't want to believe it or you think I am wrong, then do that. This is not some sort of thing that is hard to find or prove. This is what I learned in remedial fluid dynamics. We were going over equations regarding downforce and lift. This is also why cars that run high levels of downforce run very high spring rates. Downforce is weight in regards to how a suspension system is affected and manipulated by it.

So simple that you are unable to use the correct terminology for it?

Oh and sources. Yes, you make a claim you back it up.

Odd that I'm able to supply a wide range in seconds, all of which support the point I am making and use the exact same terminology (it's almost like I've used them many times before) and you are unable to supply a single one or even use an open source one I provided to you?

Why would that be?

Like I said, if you need a link for me to prove it, then look for yourself. This is why I don't post much anymore. You can be far more well informed than someone else and it doesn't matter on the internet. You're wrong until you posts links (especially me as I am notoriously blunt on here)...but I couldn't care less lol. We'll say I am wrong or that I gave up on the argument or whatever you please lol. I've done so much crap around spring rates, that I have a slight understanding as to what a damper spring functions as. I am an idiot for bothering to respond lol

Toys have left the pram.

One single source to back up your claim that spring 'solely support the vehicles weight' was all you were asked for, given your claim that it was simply textbook stuff, supplying the name of the textbook should not be an issue.

 

[332i]

So simple that you are unable to use the correct terminology for it?

Oh and sources. Yes, you make a claim you back it up.

Odd that I'm able to supply a wide range in seconds, all of which support the point I am making and use the exact same terminology (it's almost like I've used them many times before) and you are unable to supply a single one or even use an open source one I provided to you?

Why would that be?




http://rs1117.pbsrc.com/albums/k590/ironass01/6a00d83451d00d69e20128761e5d00970c-320pi_zps75ef299c.jpg

I am starting to see that you think you're right, because you have far more patience than I. Which is fine with me lol. It is not a question of "why can I, if you can't?" You want it to be that. It's not that I cant, it's that I just don't care to meticuously go copy and pasting on my phone while I enjoy my saturday morning Like I said, think what you like. Don't hesitate to get rhetorical for the past 30min, either. Oh...

We went off on this because you don't like the way I used a word or whatnot (support). You don't like the fact that I am right in the matter of a sentence and your over complication is exactly that - an overcomplicated explanation of what springs do. They support vehicle weight. "No they don't! They also control dive, etc.!" Yeah? How? By supporting the damn vehicles weight properly? Holy hell.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

@332i, teasing a moderator is fine and all, just be careful when treading on thin ice

 

[AHR3EX]

I am starting to see that you think you're right, because you have far more patience than I. Which is fine with me lol.

He probably thinks hes right, because he is right.

It is not a question of "why can I, if you can't?" You want it to be that. It's not that I cant, it's that I just don't care to meticuously go copy and pasting on my phone while I enjoy my saturday morning.

If you could of proved it you would have already

 

[332i]

He probably thinks hes right, because he is right.

If you could of proved it you would have already

Go ahead and read the end of my last post, tailcoat rider. And I suggest he does as well.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I am starting to see that you think you're right, because you have far more patience than I. Which is fine with me lol. It is not a question of "why can I, if you can't?" You want it to be that. It's not that I cant, it's that I just don't care to meticuously go copy and pasting on my phone while I enjoy my saturday morning Like I said, think what you like. Don't hesitate to get rhetorical for the past 30min, either. Oh...

We went off on this because you don't like the way I used a word or whatnot (support). You don't like the fact that I am right in the matter of a sentence and your over complication is exactly that - an overcomplicated explanation of what springs do. They support vehicle weight. "No they don't! They also control dive, etc.!" Yeah? How? By supporting the damn vehicles weight properly? Holy hell.

Did you even think before posting ? The ice is getting thinner now, just a friendly advice.

 

[Scaff]

I am starting to see that you think you're right, because you have far more patience than I. Which is fine with me lol. It is not a question of "why can I, if you can't?" You want it to be that. It's not that I cant, it's that I just don't care to meticuously go copy and pasting on my phone while I enjoy my saturday morning Like I said, think what you like. Don't hesitate to get rhetorical for the past 30min, either. Oh...

I posted most of mine from my phone, the wonders of technology

We went off on this because you don't like the way I used a word or whatnot (support). You don't like the fact that I am right in the matter of a sentence and your over complication is exactly that - an overcomplicated explanation of what springs do. They support vehicle weight. "No they don't! They also control dive, etc.!" Yeah? How? By supporting the damn vehicles weight properly? Holy hell.

No I didn't complicate things at all. Weight is only the correct term when the vehicle is static, once its moving its load and that load is being transferred.

However you claimed that 'supporting weight' is the textbook term, so once again which text book?

Oh and to give you some time to consider that, because you don't seem to be able to take on board the suggestion to moderate you attitude you can have the rest of the weekend off.

Two-day ban, and continue in this way on your return and it will be made permanent.

 

[AHR3EX]

Go ahead and read the end of my last post, tailcoat rider. And I suggest he does as well.

Tailcoat rider lol if you say so

All I read in your posts is a Kid getting mad he is wrong stomping his feet then running off.

 

[DolHaus]

Both hilarious and informative, that's all I can ask from an argument

 

[DaBomm4]

One single source to back up your claim that spring 'solely support the vehicles weight' was all you were asked for, given your claim that it was simply textbook stuff, supplying the name of the textbook should not be an issue.

I am starting to see that you think you're right, because you have far more patience than I. Which is fine with me lol. It is not a question of "why can I, if you can't?" You want it to be that. It's not that I cant, it's that I just don't care to meticuously go copy and pasting on my phone while I enjoy my saturday morning Like I said, think what you like. Don't hesitate to get rhetorical for the past 30min, either. Oh...

We went off on this because you don't like the way I used a word or whatnot (support). You don't like the fact that I am right in the matter of a sentence and your over complication is exactly that - an overcomplicated explanation of what springs do. They support vehicle weight. "No they don't! They also control dive, etc.!" Yeah? How? By supporting the damn vehicles weight properly? Holy hell.

I suggest you either supply the source textbook that claims that springs once "optimally setup" for a track do not need to be altered for all other tracks, or walk away, you are not doing yourself any favors by not supplying your proof to back up said claim. And go ahead and attack me if you feel that is in your best interest, it doesn't bother me.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Awwww. I got called out, then missed the whole argument. That's ok. @332i likes to argue, so there will be plenty of opportunity when he gets back.

 

[F1Racer68]

Well.... that was interesting. If nothing else I do thank him for causing Scaff to give me a new Christmas wish list Thanks for some new resources @Scaff.

Ya know, there might have been some small truth in 332i's arguement..... if he didn't completely ignore the effects of G forces on both weight and load.... lol.

 

[DolHaus]

Well.... that was interesting. If nothing else I do thank him for causing Scaff to give me a new Christmas wish list Thanks for some new resources @Scaff.

Ya know, there might have been some small truth in 332i's arguement..... if he didn't completely ignore the effects of G forces on both weight and load.... lol.

Much like the captain of the Titanic, it wasn't the lack of knowledge about the sea that sank the ship but instead the refusal to change course that brought their demise

 

[Motor City Hami]

A few of my favorite handling books (many in Scaff's photo):

Tune to Win by Carroll Smith
Going Faster by Carl Lopez
High-Performance Handling Handbook by Don Alexander
The Racing & High-Performance Tire by Paul Haney
Secrets of Solo Racing by Henry Watts

Of course, now my critics will say that having read all of this real world tuning theory that it has clouded my thinking for tuning in GT6. And if that is their conclusion, then they surely have not read my GT6 tuning guide.

 

[Scaff]

Well.... that was interesting. If nothing else I do thank him for causing Scaff to give me a new Christmas wish list Thanks for some new resources @Scaff.

No problem at all, they are all worth a look

Ya know, there might have been some small truth in 332i's arguement..... if he didn't completely ignore the effects of G forces on both weight and load.... lol.

That springs support the vehicles (sprung rather than unsprung) weight/mass when static no one disagreed with, however once a body is in motion then it does a lot more than that.

His use of grossly simplistic (and technically - even at a laymans level - inaccurate) terms was only part of the issue, it was that this was used as a justification as to why you don't need to change spring rates!

None of which saw him get the two day holiday, that was entirely his own doing, if you can't discuss a subject with respect for the other site members then you have no place here at GT Planet. Something he now has a few days to mull over.

 

[F1Racer68]

A few of my favorite handling books (many in Scaff's photo):

Tune to Win by Carroll Smith
Going Faster by Carl Lopez
High-Performance Handling Handbook by Don Alexander
The Racing & High-Performance Tire by Paul Haney
Secrets of Solo Racing by Henry Watts

Of course, now my critics will say that having read all of this real world tuning theory that it has clouded my thinking for tuning in GT6. And if that is their conclusion, then they surely have not read my GT6 tuning guide.

Thanks @Motor City Hami I have a copy of Tune to Win, and refer to it a lot. I am always on the lookout for more resources as I am a firm believer in comparing muliple perspectives. Having a larger library is never a bad thing

 

[BYTE_ME]

Well.... that was interesting. If nothing else I do thank him for causing Scaff to give me a new Christmas wish list Thanks for some new resources @Scaff.
Ya know, there might have been some small truth in 332i's arguement..... if he didn't completely ignore the effects of G forces on both weight and load.... lol.

Lol what?? G-Forces on weight and load? Do you know what "g-force" is??? It's a standard measure of gravity. Ok...effects of GRAVITY-forces....on WEIGHT...and LOAD. And Pi is also a food, everyone.


If you delete this post Scaff, I will make new accounts from proxies all day on a timer. I don't even have to be at the computer. I'll sit down in a few hours and I will have 50 accounts without having to do a thing, if you want to go that route, being that this has seemed to be a popular trend with offended moderators lately when they can't admit they are wrong. Example: The issue with ET. Solution to members like us - piss member off and bait/troll him into showing it, put him in timeout and delete x posts for x reasons that are pertaining to the moderators swollen ego and e-agenda. That's what happens when you have most moderators doing it for free on a forum that is more than large enough to profit from traffic. The forum community moderates itself, better than the mods do. I don't think many people on here can disagree with that. There are some good mods, but as I said, the community moderates itself better. Note that you think I over-simplified it and I feel you over-complicated it. "No, you're wrong, they also control dive!" Yeah, dude - THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU SUPPORT THE CHASSIS WITH A SUSPENSION SYSTEM USING SOME SORT OF SPRING IN CONJUCTION WITH DAMPERS. THAT IS THEIR PURPOSE. TO REACT AND THEY REACT BY SUPPORTING VEHICLE WEIGHT AND WHEN THEY SUPPORT VEHICLE WEIGHT IN X MANNER - THEY CONTROL PITCH IN X MANNER. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM NOT TO AND THAT IS THERE PURPOSE. YOU CAUSED AN ARGUMENT BECAUSE BY TRYING TO REINVENT A WHEEL.

I posted most of mine from my phone, the wonders of technology

No I didn't complicate things at all. Weight is only the correct term when the vehicle is static, once its moving its load and that load is being transferred.
However you claimed that 'supporting weight' is the textbook term, so once again which text book?
Oh and to give you some time to consider that, because you don't seem to be able to take on board the suggestion to moderate you attitude you can have the rest of the weekend off.
Two-day ban, and continue in this way on your return and it will be made permanent.

Dude, just ban me lol. I don't want to feel short-changed, you know? You seem to think I care about that, too. Gee...not the WHOLE weekend Anytime I want to use the site for a series or whatnot, I'll just use a proxy server like everyone else who gets banned and continues to make screen names on here. It is no loss to me. I never said it was a text book term and you clearly waited to ban me, until you started to see that you can't dispute the logic right here:
@332i

We went off on this because you don't like the way I used a word or whatnot (support). You don't like the fact that I am right in the matter of a sentence and your over complication is exactly that - an overcomplicated explanation of what springs do. They support vehicle weight. "No they don't! They also control dive, etc.!" Yeah? How? By supporting the damn vehicles weight properly? Holy hell"

You couldn't argue with that and so you banned me for the weekend. It is obvious, dude. That was the first retort of yours that wasn't full of "I'm right, I'm right! Look at the books on my coffee table! I'm sure it says your wrong in one of them somewhere!" Any sort of escalation in our argument had already hit the ceiling. It's also pretty funny that you think it carries any sort of weight or meaning to be blocked for a weekend from an internet forum.
Pretty comical that they've sunk to choosing mods on here that will start an argument by attempting to correct someone, piss them off, then act like you don't know why the member is annoyed and telling you off lol. Moderators are not immune to being jerks or incorrect. You would not be the first moderator on here to make that mistake.

The fact that you are still posting as if I was wrong is cute.

I suggest you either supply the source textbook that claims that springs once "optimally setup" for a track do not need to be altered for all other tracks, or walk away, you are not doing yourself any favors by not supplying your proof to back up said claim. And go ahead and attack me if you feel that is in your best interest, it doesn't bother me.

Don't forget this thread started with "what we change in GT6" to "what springs do in real life". Don't confuse yourself, before you even jump to point out that xyz won't bother you lol. I didn't say they don't need to be changed. I said I don't change them, because it throws the balance off and yeah, they generally are in an optimal territory for the video game we are speaking of, because we are playing in a vacuum. It is a mathematically based physics engine.
There actually IS one best setup. It is mathematically impossible, that there is NOT a best setup.
I said I set the cars up for max grip and then change..what I said I change. Go read it again. I also said I don't change the rates **IN GT6**. I suggest you take a hike, because you are not a moderator and he had already banned me by the time you responded to something in a manner that suggests you wish you were one.

 

[DolHaus]

Wow.

 

[BYTE_ME]

lol that's what he gets dude screw that haha

 

[Scaff]

I guess some don't take a hint.

He's gone as has his 'new' account.

I will just leave your tantrum posts in place along with your rather 'interesting' logic.

All you were asked to do was show the textbook that states that springs solely support weight and explain why that means you don't need to adjust spring rates.

Not a difficult request and not really worthy of a temp-ban inducing rant and permanent ban worthy re-registrar.

I did originally delete the posts to keep the thread clean, but put them back as I think its far more instructive to the general membership to show exactly how you reacted to a simple request to back up your claims with sources.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Lol what?? G-Forces on weight and load? Do you know what "g-force" is??? It's a standard measure of gravity. Ok...effects of GRAVITY-forces....on WEIGHT...and LOAD. And Pi is also a food, everyone.


If you delete this post Scaff, I will make new accounts from proxies all day on a timer. I don't even have to be at the computer. I'll sit down in a few hours and I will have 50 accounts without having to do a thing, if you want to go that route, being that this has seemed to be a popular trend with offended moderators lately when they can't admit they are wrong. Example: The issue with ET. Solution to members like us - piss member off and bait/troll him into showing it, put him in timeout and delete x posts for x reasons that are pertaining to the moderators swollen ego and e-agenda. That's what happens when you have most moderators doing it for free on a forum that is more than large enough to profit from traffic. The forum community moderates itself, better than the mods do. I don't think many people on here can disagree with that. There are some good mods, but as I said, the community moderates itself better. Note that you think I over-simplified it and I feel you over-complicated it. "No, you're wrong, they also control dive!" Yeah, dude - THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU SUPPORT THE CHASSIS WITH A SUSPENSION SYSTEM USING SOME SORT OF SPRING IN CONJUCTION WITH DAMPERS. THAT IS THEIR PURPOSE. TO REACT AND THEY REACT BY SUPPORTING VEHICLE WEIGHT AND WHEN THEY SUPPORT VEHICLE WEIGHT IN X MANNER - THEY CONTROL PITCH IN X MANNER. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM NOT TO AND THAT IS THERE PURPOSE. YOU CAUSED AN ARGUMENT BECAUSE BY TRYING TO REINVENT A WHEEL.

Dude, just ban me lol. I don't want to feel short-changed, you know? You seem to think I care about that, too. Gee...not the WHOLE weekend Anytime I want to use the site for a series or whatnot, I'll just use a proxy server like everyone else who gets banned and continues to make screen names on here. It is no loss to me. I never said it was a text book term and you clearly waited to ban me, until you started to see that you can't dispute the logic right here:
@332i
You couldn't argue with that and so you banned me for the weekend. It is obvious, dude. That was the first retort of yours that wasn't full of "I'm right, I'm right! Look at the books on my coffee table! I'm sure it says your wrong in one of them somewhere!" Any sort of escalation in our argument had already hit the ceiling. It's also pretty funny that you think it carries any sort of weight or meaning to be blocked for a weekend from an internet forum.
Pretty comical that they've sunk to choosing mods on here that will start an argument by attempting to correct someone, piss them off, then act like you don't know why the member is annoyed and telling you off lol. Moderators are not immune to being jerks or incorrect. You would not be the first moderator on here to make that mistake.

The fact that you are still posting as if I was wrong is cute.


Don't forget this thread started with "what we change in GT6" to "what springs do in real life". Don't confuse yourself, before you even jump to point out that xyz won't bother you lol. I didn't say they don't need to be changed. I said I don't change them, because it throws the balance off and yeah, they generally are in an optimal territory for the video game we are speaking of, because we are playing in a vacuum. It is a mathematically based physics engine.
There actually IS one best setup. It is mathematically impossible, that there is NOT a best setup.
I said I set the cars up for max grip and then change..what I said I change. Go read it again. I also said I don't change the rates **IN GT6**. I suggest you take a hike, because you are not a moderator and he had already banned me by the time you responded to something in a manner that suggests you wish you were one.

Please don't be Jack Napier II The name is unique Bite me please

As for lift off oversteer, the usual 1st step is brake balance ( depends on the car, it may introduce bad side effects when having too much front or rear bias ), then damper tuning. I usually avoid altering weight distribution or already set spring rate and alignment. I would touch brake LSD when all else fails, as increasing the braking LSD will make the car less eager to turn in when coasting or braking.

 

[AHR3EX]

Yes 332i you are correct, the springs do support the weight of the vehicle. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, yes when the springs are tuned one could say they are supporting the weight as the car moves while the body pitches and rolls. I see what your trying to say you meant. It's still not as simple as "springs sole purpose is supporting the weight" as if thats all there is to it. You act like Scaff is over complicating it but he is being very simple and basic about it using the proper terms. Your oversimplification using improper terminology is what's over complicating, confusing, and misleading.


A part where you are simply wrong is thinking one spring rate (even a tuned spring) is going to be ideal at every location in GT6 or Real Life. You opened the door to both GT6 & Real Life when you said that is how it's done in both GT6 and real life. I think every single pro race team in every aspect of motor sports racing will disagree with you. It is easier to generalize your spring rate when dealing with 1200 cars on over 70 tracks, you should know a generalized spring rate is not an ideal spring rate for anyplace. The same car put under different conditions will see different loads. A fast track where a car gets average speeds around 125mph that is very smooth and flat will not have the same ideal spring rate at a track with an average speeds around 75mph that is rough and full of elevation changes. The springs used on the 125mph track can use a much higher frequency i.e. stiffer spring than the same car running at the 75mph track. The stiff springs of the smooth track don't like the roughness of the 75mph track, it has too high of a frequency, where the softer springs of the 75mph track are too sluggish on the 125mph track, too low of a frequency. All the elevation changes at the 75mph track have the car going from positive to negatived G and back the set up for the 125mph track is too low the car bottoms out in the dips, raising the ride height solved the problem, but now the springs have more travel and I'm transferring more weight (COG height) Simply put the loads are a result of the conditions of the track, changing the track changes the conditions and the resulting loads, the loads are in your language how much weight the spring will have to support.

 

[RyanRacer]

I knew he would get banned. He loves going into threads and arguing about everything and anything that exists, real or fake. He'll also swear at you in the chat box nonstop if you accidentally hit him online. Funny, I thought it would take longer for him to get banned. Thank you for doing us all a favor!

 

[rams1de]

Please don't be Jack Napier II The name is unique Bite me please .

His trolling style is very similar but it's hilarious if he is Jack because he'll have managed to kick this one off by arguing with himself, see post #34

 

[Tornado]

Teenagers. Teenagers everywhere.