London and England riots

[Captain Roh]

There is not dispute these people on bikes were criminals, they could have been rapist murderers, it doesn't matter, what the police did was a worse crime, the police represent the law and country etc.

The police do not represent the law, they uphold it.

Rioters and looters have destroyed many peoples homes and livelyhoods, breaking the law and doing so through intimidation and violence. They have been given plenty of time to be reasoned with. They do not listen, they do not stop.

Wether it is right or wrong, it is neccesary right now.


Those cyclists, if not charged and sentenced, will certainly think twice about putting themselves in the same situation tomorrow.

 

[PeterJB]

Fighting fire with fire is a bit of a biblical philosophy but in any case there was no fire against fire, the boy was non resistant and on the floor. He was then hit multiple times. In what way are the police returning what they are receiving, the received no impact injuries while the boy was on the floor...

People are on the polices side when they are doing policing within the law, in my look at the video, it doesn't look lawful policing. I accept some people may still accept and support it though.

..........

Yes these incidents can be expected. But they must be punished within the law and not supported in my view.
In the same way government and top brass expect their soldiers to go crazy in a war zone and commit horrible atrocities on enemy or even civilians, they accept that it's mostly inevitable part of soldiering life. But they punish it, they don't just let it pass. We hope anyway.

They punish soldiers them because they do to civilians and/or the enemy what is usually not being done to them. These rioters are attacking the city, the police and civilians by force, and at the moment the only way to stop and capture them is to attack them by force too.

 

[Moot]

So... what you are saying is that you would rather live next door to a rapist/murderer than a policeman who is using force to stop some deadbeat who has been rioting for no particular reason?

That's what it sounds like to me. The general public has been screaming all week for the police to actually do something to stop the crap, and this policeman has done that, and you want him thrown in jail for life (which is what you are saying if his crime is worse than rape and murder).

Maybe you should have taken a longer break from the thread.

I knew there would be one.....congratulations, it's you having a go at me.


You have missed the point.

The crime is worse for the whole nation, not for some individual who happens to live next door to an errant policeman rather than a rapist/murderer.

The crime is worse for us, but the punishment for the actual policeman doesn't need to be big , maybe just a dressing down and a reminder of the rules or it maybe harsher, whatever the current laws are on the matter. Obviously the punishment would be prison for the rapist/murderer.
But the crime of the policeman is far worse. In terms of significance, how it is dealt with by the police, by the news, by courts, what it means to various people many communities all around the country. It has a high value attribute.

They punish soldiers them because they do to civilians and/or the enemy what is usually not being done to them. These rioters are attacking the city, the police and civilians by force, and at the moment the only way to stop and capture them is to attack them by force too.

In what way was the baton needed to capture the boy in the video? I'm not disputing the bringing him down to the ground off his bike.
How can you justify it morally or in law. It's not possible.

 

[Akira AC]

I've seen this kind of behaviour, but where?

 

[arora]

The crime is worse for us, ......................
But the crime of the policeman is far worse.

What crime? I must be watching a different vid or something because all I saw was a kid running from the police and being caught, yes force was involved, nothing more then a few cuts and bruises most likely.

In your world the cops would leave a paper sack of prozac on the kids porch and wait for him to turn himself in?

 

[Moot]

Wether it is right or wrong, it is neccesary right now.


Those cyclists, if not charged and sentenced, will certainly think twice about putting themselves in the same situation tomorrow.

It's possible to argue right or wrong is more important than necessity. But on top of that essentially there was ZERO necessity in that video for baton strikes.

You say they will think twice about the situation, which you think is better.
I think they will think twice, on remembering the police ident number of the police involved and working out which knife to stab them to death with.
Remember these people might not care about spending life in prison.
To get even would be far more important?

What crime? I must be watching a different vid or something because all I saw was a kid running from the police and being caught, yes force was involved, nothing more then a few cuts and bruises most likely.

In your world the cops would leave a paper sack of prozac on the kids porch and wait for him to turn himself in?

I thought unnecessary force was a crime, but correct me if i'm wrong to think that.

 

[Barra333]

I knew there would be one.....congratulations, it's you having a go at me.

Thanks.

You have missed the point.

The crime is worse for the whole nation, not for some individual who happens to live next door to an errant policeman rather than a rapist/murderer.

I guess if that is the case, this policeman's actions should outrank the riots themselves in the media over the next few days. We just have to wait and see about that.

The crime is worse for us, but the punishment for the actual policeman doesn't need to be big , maybe just a dressing down and a reminder of the rules or it maybe harsher, whatever the current laws are on the matter. Obviously the punishment would be prison for the rapist/murderer.
But the crime of the policeman is far worse. In terms of significance, how it is dealt with by the police, by the news, by courts, what it means to various people many communities all around the country. It has a high value attribute.

If the crime is worse, then the punishment should be worse. You cant have (what you see as) a serious crime result in a slap on the wrist.

In what way was the baton needed to capture the boy in the video? I'm not disputing the bringing him down to the ground off his bike.
How can you justify it morally or in law. It's not possible.

We have all seen far worse videos of police brutality (justifiably punished) in the past, but given the circumstances, I dont see any excessive force there.

 

[arora]

I thought unnecessary force was a crime, but correct me if i'm wrong to think that.

It is a crime in the U.S. I just don't see it in the vid.

 

[Moot]

Well I do predict the media will make a fuss of this tomorrow.
I am taking a break now you might be pleased to know.

 

[arora]

I am taking a break now you might be pleased to know.

Not really, I enjoy your postings.

 

[TT3AZ]

Different kinds of poverty. But even if you can keep yourself alive ok. There is an immense psychological effect on the individual who has less than their neighbours/community or the average person in their country. And with TV and media etc. the impression of comparison comes from the country as a whole. Millions of people will always feel miserable and desperate for immediate change.
Extremely poor isolated people who have perhaps little choice over what food they eat to stay alive can be in a community much happier and a good sense of well being as the whole if that community/tribe is in the same situation, there is no comparison of ease of life.
As humans we destroy ourselves/others when we see difference.

The effect was less troublesome over the last thousands of years, but in recent history with the spread of easy information, everyone knows what's going on and how other people live and can see what they would like to have that others are enjoying.

I'm not really into the details of politics but maybe that's the dangers of capitalism and aspiration. Maybe for the populations sake for it to work there needs to be a medication that treats the need for equality and therefore you can feel settled with a life less rich than others. Some fortunates have the ability to do this naturally, but that maybe from upbringing or genes. We are born to be materialistic.

Well, that made sence, and that is what i meant by poverty etc. Misserable people will allways do stuff, and that is also nothing new.

Of course you get affected and depressed when you see all the suff people around have. If i werent been able to afford all this things i have, i would as well be angry and maybe depressed. Its hard to watch all rich kids have stuff they havent earned, i know, im from the working class. Having a family and a regular work isnt that easy. Specially if you are going to send your kids to college/university.

I also think that people can become greedy, but lets face it, if you cant afford all advertised stuff, then you get a funny feeling. It isnt uncommon that "poor" people living in ghetto like areas engaging in riots, because they are the ones that have it rough.

Yes, you got to work for your money, but the reality is that manny people have good luck, and inheritage wealth.

In the capitalistic society, we should look up on rich and wealthy people, but i cant do that unfortiunatly. If you have earned your money, and worked hard, then maybe. If you look at your financial situation, and look at theirs, then you may wonder what is wrong with the society. Thats also why i dont watch mtv or any of these materialistic channels.

I also think that racist policemen that beat down on innoicent black kids should be sentenced. The problem is that people are sick and tired to watch all these government people do what ever they like, and just get a slap on the wrist.

Police that commits crime should be sentenced even harder, because they represent law and order. Truth is that many police are just using their badges to get out their anger and hit colored people. Many policemen are straight up idiots that likes violence. I have no respect for policemen that take the law in his own hands, or are racists/prejuduce.

 

[C-ZETA]

Oh no! It's Argue Wars III: Revenge of the Moot!

So any other unexplained fires that occurred last night then?

 

[Moglet]

Nothing to report in Birmingham, all that happened was a vigil for the 3 men who were killed. The rest of the country has been fairly quiet too. The BBC say this:

A huge police operation and heavy rain in some areas appear to have prevented a fifth night of disorder.

 

[Luminis]

Police that commits crime should be sentenced even harder, because they represent law and order. Truth is that many police are just using their badges to get out their anger and hit colored people.

Many? I mean, not like I can speak for the whole world, but I'd say it's a very small minority. But, since it's usually creating a huge buzz in the media, it's those few black sheeps that give everyone a pretty bad reputation.

Also, being friends with a cop, I could tell you about what people would be willing to do just to get back on the guys who caught them. Like hitting their foreheads on tables or walls to claim "unneccessary violence" was done to them by the police. Too bad they've been caught on camera, though Personally, I admire some of those policemen. I know I'd have a very, very hard time not acting a bit more drastic on some of the folks they have to arrest and treat with a certain amount of respect.

Again, I can only talk about Germany, but around here, it's usually the culprits that get protected, moreso than the police or the victims. We've had a few small riots (nothing in comparison to the current ones in England) and the police has been getting a lot of flack for not using cushions as weapons. I don't know, nowadays, it seems like a lot of people would rather see a policeman, who's probably having a wife and kids at home, beaten to a bloody pulp than anyone laying a hand on "innocent protestants". It's not their fault that they're standing in a mob that's throwing stones and refusing direct orders from the police, when they should be working or at school

Oh well, I could keep on ranting about that stuff some more, but really, if the police was allowed to act more forceful if a situation like the one in London arrises (and only during such situations), they could at least do something about...
Hopefully, the riots in England won't pick up again, they've caused too much damage already...

In the capitalistic society, we should look up on rich and wealthy people, but i cant do that unfortiunatly. If you have earned your money, and worked hard, then maybe. If you look at your financial situation, and look at theirs, then you may wonder what is wrong with the society. Thats also why i dont watch mtv or any of these materialistic channels.

Well, how about communism, then? Everyone owns nothing the same with that Also, communist countries sure seem to be those that also value the freedom of their people and endorse human rights

 

[axletramp]

888 arrested in London so far - that will go up as the CCTV and witness evidence keeps rolling in. Once all those convicted have been interned or tagged it will be interesting to see if there's a dip in petty crime and theft. Can't help feeling this is an opportunity for the Met (and other forces) to conduct a bit of a social sweep.

Also impressed by the father of two of the guys killed by the looters (murderers?). Quite rightly he's on the front of most of the tabloids with his message urging those seeking vengeance to go home. I think his quote was "Come forward if you want your sons to die too. If not, go home."

 

[Famine]

If you don't understand that's fair enough.

It's not a case of not understanding - it's a case of you talking rubbish.

All of the people I know who rent their houses do so out of choice. They could easily get a mortgage on their salaries - hell, before 2008 anyone could by self-certing - but they prefer to rent. By renting they're protected from all the horrors that could befall a homeowner: they aren't responsible for repairs to their house, the landlord is; they don't have to worry about home improvements, the landlord does; they don't suffer the fiats of the housing markets and negative equity, the landlord does; they can even deal with cold-callers in just four words - "we rent this house" - and boy do I miss those days. My friends who rent mention all of these points, and more, every time the question of renting vs. buying comes up.

If you're trying to paint renting your property as belonging to an underclass because you aren't happy with it, the problem isn't renting property but you. For some reason you aren't happy with your lot in life - I'd suggest setting yourself a goal and working towards it, rather than denigrating everyone who shares your situation.

In the capitalistic society, we should look up on rich and wealthy people

Horse apples.

 

[Neal]

Good to hear there was no trouble last night across the UK and with rain forecast for the next couple of days plus the police now apparently on top of the situation is should stay that way.

Photo from yesterday. Residents of Clapham Junction, south London, gather outside looted shops to help clean up the streets following appeals on social networking sites

 

[axletramp]

^ That's great to see! 👍

EDIT: does look a bit like flash mob promo for the new West End production of Mary Poppins...

 

[m0rris]

Good to see that some of the good that has come out of this has been put up here.

As for the police "brutality", the rioters have trashed our city centres, destroyed businesses, driven away tourists, beaten and killed people. They deserve everything they get, especially since they show no gratitude for the hundreds of thousands worth of benefits they have received over their useless lives.

Anyways, compared to the PSNI in the UK and most other European forces we are distinctly tame... if you take one look at the CRS you wil see why rioting in France is an altogther different affair.
m0rris

 

[homeforsummer]

The crime is worse for the whole nation, not for some individual who happens to live next door to an errant policeman rather than a rapist/murderer.

I'm still failing to see how it's worse for the nation.

Break the law, get beaten over the head.

It appears you must do the former to receive the latter. Don't break the law, don't get beaten over the head.

Where's the problem again?

 

[Vince_Fiero]

Some interesting discussions here. Some points came up in my mind.

1) This is not a UK thing. Although every outbreak is different, in Western Europe there are certain similarities. You can not blame a certain government or prime minister, since it is a general society issue. The French certainly could add to this.

2) Individualism (Geert Hofstede):

Individualism (IDV) on the one side versus its opposite, collectivism, that is the degree to which individuals are inte-grated into groups. On the individualist side we find societies in which the ties between individuals are loose: everyone is expected to look after him/herself and his/her immediate family. On the collectivist side, we find societies in which people from birth onwards are integrated into strong, cohesive in-groups, often extended families (with uncles, aunts and grandparents) which continue protecting them in exchange for unquestioning loyalty. The word 'collectivism' in this sense has no political meaning: it refers to the group, not to the state. Again, the issue addressed by this dimension is an extremely fundamental one, regarding all societies in the world.

So if you promote individualism this is not respect of the other, since the individualism you have no duties (loyalty) towards the others. That would be collectivism, it seems there are some different visions of definition on this. You can discuss human rights (where I also have a more collectivist vision then most Anglo Saxons), but that is not reinforced by individualism or collectivism.

3) To quote the Bible:

Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone

I did pretty stupid things when I was 11, and so did a lot of my friends that turned out to be very responsible, leading and successful people. Make it clear to the youngsters that this is unacceptable, but give them a chance to grow up.

4) Police violence is destructive for society: When the police needs to use violence it is too late. The issue needs to found before. For the people that see violence of Police, even if it is justified, it will be easier to identify with the person not in uniform. I hardly see how this will give respect. Social workers are better placed and can help to build respect to authority slowly, but they generally are not respected, since the parents should be doing this. Do not blame the things that do not work, but find solutions that do work.

4) About not having what the others have. That is the case for all people, I have known very rich people that are jealous of the less capital strong people since they have more quality time to spend with their family. This whole discussion is beside the point and proves you miss the essence (as the looters seem to do). It is not about what you have or what others have, but it is about what you make of what you have! When I see a Porsche Turbo S in front of a big house here in Luxembourg, I know what it costs and that I will not have that, but that does not incite me to destroy. When I look at my life compared to African simple farmers, I see how I'm very rich. When I look at my life with my partner and family, I see how good we have it.

5) The government should do things. Yes that is something I stated, but many seem to transform that into they owe me something. Now that is just one of these issues with individualism, you contribute, so you should profit on your terms? When I state the government should do things this is in a collectivist view, I contribute with my contributions, taxes, etc... to the government existence and I accept that since they have to shape this collectivism. There is a return but the return is not directly to me (but to society) and I have to accept that. It is not on my term, but on the term of the collective, the voters. Man I hope people vote differently next time, but still I have to live with the collective choice.

 

[homeforsummer]

I did pretty stupid things when I was 11, and so did a lot of my friends that turned out to be very responsible, leading and successful people. Make it clear to the youngsters that this is unacceptable, but give them a chance to grow up.

That's the thing - lots of people do stupid things when they're kids, it's part of growing up. But like you, your friends, me and anyone else posting in this thread, you grow out of it, become more responsible etc.

The rioting lot aren't given boundaries as kids so their stupid phase is more violent and destructive than ours was, and then they never grow out of it as adults and become football hooligans, pub brawlers or at a further stage, gang members, criminals, rapists and murderers. Even if they don't reach that stage, they just become general scumbags who end up on Jerry Springer-esque programs over here, knock up loads of girls, have illegitimate children and the whole cycle starts again.

 

[Neal]

^ That's great to see! 👍

EDIT: does look a bit like flash mob promo for the new West End production of Mary Poppins...

You're not wrong...but are you saying some of them look like Dicks

Good to see that some of the good that has come out of this has been put up here.

Watching the local news last night it was great to see large numbers of young people helping with the clean up proving that there are plenty of them that have pride in their cities and care enough to take to the streets to show their support. 👍

 

[axletramp]

You're not wrong...but are you saying some of them look like Dicks

Ouch:



Here's the BBC report on the arrests:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14486996

 

[Famine]

So if you promote individualism this is not respect of the other, since the individualism you have no duties (loyalty) towards the others.

More horseapples.

In order to respect the rights of an individual you must respect the rights of all individuals. If I may not be harmed against my will - the very essence of an individual right - I may not harm others against their will either. I have the right not to be harmed against my will and I have the responsibility (or duty) not to harm others against their will because of that individual right.

Individualism is more respectful to group rights than collectivism is, because all collectivist philosophies require the occasional pretence that an individual has no rights if it benefits the community - and if people do not respect your rights you have no reason to respect theirs. I don't go out killing because the community says I shouldn't or the law says I shouldn't, but because I have an individual right not to be killed and that means I must not kill others.


Individualism is not the every man for himself ideal that it's almost always painted to be.

4) Police violence is destructive for society: When the police needs to use violence it is too late.

No and yes in that order. Controlled police action is less destructive for society than allowing an uncontrolled mob to set fire to people's homes while they are still in them. If the police need to use violent means, a crime has already been committed and they are preventing it from going further - the normal duty of the police (and the army) is to prevent the crime occurring in the first place, but there is a reason why we call it a "police force".

The issue needs to found before.

Since you're fond of quoting others, allow me to quote Alfred Pennyworth:

He thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

Please re-read what I quoted earlier from the "acquaintance" of mine, who used to be one of these people.

 

[PHCharls]

Poor Sony

 

[dhandeh]

Poor Sony

Poor small independant record labels, that have had all their stock destroyed and facing potential financial ruin.

 

[Moot]

I'm confused, I've checked all the national media websites I usually read and can't find anything to do with the police brutality video now. Has anyone else see it in mainstream press? I'm surprised it hasn't taken off.
..........
In other news the BBC has banned the use of the term UK rioters, it's now English rioters only.

 

[Famine]

Can't see an issue with that. It's not fair to implicate the people of Scotland or Wales (despite rumours of happenings in Cardiff) in an incident that is only occuring in English cities and perpetrated by English citizens upon other English citizens.

The police takedown of the cyclists leaving the riot zone was broadcast on Sky News last night.

 

[boiltheocean]

The police takedown of the cyclists leaving the riot zone was broadcast on Sky News last night.

BBC News also showed it yesterday.