Lots of Games have it Now. Should GT 5 have a Rewind Option?

[Lucas]

You logic is correct, i cannot deny that. Yet i rather it was not in the game, same as i would rather power-ups were not in the game, same as Forza's one button racing was not in the game. If the game had everything everyone wanted then it wouldn't be GT, it would be a very generic Need for Speed type game.

The only thing out of normal of all these threads has been Rewind. Every other thread is right (in some aspect). There's nothing unrealistic in them. Though this feature is unrealistic, it doesn't make GT unrealistic, because there are unrealistic things in previous GTs which I asume will be carried over to GT5 (upgrading parts in seconds). But it's a game, and with rewind some people will find the game more entertaining and other people (like me) will find it useful at early stages of the game.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

Sure wish someone would hurry up with a time machine so this argument would stop.

The day a time machine is invented the day i'll be happy to see rewind in GT.

The only thing out of normal of all these threads has been Rewind. Every other thread is right (in some aspect). There's nothing unrealistic in them. Though this feature is unrealistic, it doesn't make GT unrealistic, because there are unrealistic things in previous GTs which I asume will be carried over to GT5 (upgrading parts in seconds). But it's a game, and with rewind some people will find the game more entertaining and other people (like me) will find it useful at early stages of the game.

I agree some people will find it more entertaining.
I agree that this is one issue that will never be resolved, the poll proves this.
I agree that many of the out of race things, such as being able to upgrade instantly, are far from realistic, and have been put there to make the game more entertaining.
I also believe you when you say that it'll make the game easier for you at the beginning. I personally would call this a form of cheating. Its meant to be a challenge.

The part i dont agree on is the core of GT. It should be perfected to as close as reality as possible whilst still being fun, not made as unrealistic as possible by adding rewind.

 

[Organ-Donor]

The day a time machine is invented the day i'll be happy to see rewind in GT.

Until that day, I just assume rewind be left in code books or cheat sites.

 

[Lucas]

Race avoiding tools, race manager mode. Same thing. Its not actually racing, if it was racing and could be fast-forward then yes it would be unrealistic to same extent that rewind is.

See why the poll has so many options in the first place? Because you can't simply answer Yes or No. Forget where it is used, just tell me if it's realistic to speed up a race while managing in real life. Is it that hard to understand?

No, it isn't. So GT is unrealistic, let's move on, people. If you can't understand this, then I'm done. There's nothing more simple than that.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

See why the poll has so many options in the first place? Because you can't simply answer Yes or No. Forget where it is used, just tell me if it's realistic to speed up a race while managing in real life. Is it that hard to understand?

No, it isn't. So GT is unrealistic, let's move on, people. If you can't understand this, then I'm done. There's nothing more simple than that.

I've never said that outside of actual driving that GT is realistic. B-Spec is unrealistic, nobody said it was. Rewind is a feature that your looking to involve in the core of the game, in the actual driving.

Forget every other part of the game for one second, just consider the core of the game, the actual racing. PD try to make this core as realistic as possible, its the number one reason for GT selling so many copies. For PD to incorporate rewind would be a step closer to arcade, and a step away from realism. They added damage when the machines are powerful enough, this has helped the game evolve, rewind when available in the real life world, should then be considered for integration into the core of GT.

 

[Exorcet]

PD try to make this core as realistic as possible

Damage removed after GT2

And thinking about it, B-Spec technically lets you play the game without every being immersed in the core.

One last thing, in that last reply to me, I can see where you're coming from, there is a slightly different issue of disagreement between us. I also think that there are things that can effect perception of a product and the experience, but only temporarily. I also believe that even if it does, I don't have a right to limit other people's wants. I'll need to think on it for a while before I can reply more thoroughly. It only took 60 pages, but there is some very weak agreement that leads to a different issue.

 

[Devedander]

See why the poll has so many options in the first place? Because you can't simply answer Yes or No. Forget where it is used, just tell me if it's realistic to speed up a race while managing in real life. Is it that hard to understand?

No, it isn't. So GT is unrealistic, let's move on, people. If you can't understand this, then I'm done. There's nothing more simple than that.

Correct, GT has reaslistic aspects and is more realistic than most console games, but in the world of "realistic" there are lots of places where GT (as it should) goes for playability, accessibilty and fun over realism.

 

[Dravonic]

I don't understand why you people want rewind so bad. Sure, it can help with nasty corners like the 3 last ones in Fuji and I'm all for it in practices, but it's not like it's an important tool or anything like that.

Rewinding is far from fun if you're using it to practice. Turn, rewind, turn again, rewind, turn yet again, rewind, turn one more time, rewind... See? It's a pain in the ass to read let alone do it! Also it's not like I know all the other corners lol. I need to work on every single one of them. Even when I perfect a corner in one lap, in the next I'm likely to screw it up. Bottom line, when it comes to practice, rewind can be useful but it's far from a fantastic idea. You still need to learn the whole track and it can only allow you to learn it in a new, turn by turn, way. Not the old fashioned and more fun, lap by lap way.

Even though it can have legitimate uses as you guys are pointing out and as I stated above, we all know when it will be used. We all know why people want it. You know why you want it. Am I right? What do you say about allowing it only in practice modes? Probably not good right? You want to rewind that race don't you? That race that you screwed up and you know you should start over but you're too lazy and want to rewind, right?

Lol people come on... just answer me one thing: do you like driving? Because I do. I have no problem starting the race over. I'm buying GT5 to race, not beat it and add to my "beaten games list" and get trophies and what not.

Bottom line, I'm not against rewind at all, I'm all for giving people options and I know most gamers are casual and don't have the patience. Just don't try to say you have legitimate motives. We all know what it will be used for.

 

[Devedander]

I've never said that outside of actual driving that GT is realistic. B-Spec is unrealistic, nobody said it was. Rewind is a feature that your looking to involve in the core of the game, in the actual driving.

Forget every other part of the game for one second, just consider the core of the game, the actual racing. PD try to make this core as realistic as possible, its the number one reason for GT selling so many copies. For PD to incorporate rewind would be a step closer to arcade, and a step away from realism.

Realistic like a color changing line on the road and TCS in super old cars?

Rewind doesn't change the core gameplay, it's an option to modifiy it if you like and or need to. Again if rewind was FORCED on you somehow, like it kicked in every time you touched another car or didn't place, THEN it would be totally wrong.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

Realistic like a color changing line on the road and TCS in super old cars?

Rewind doesn't change the core gameplay, it's an option to modifiy it if you like and or need to. Again if rewind was FORCED on you somehow, like it kicked in every time you touched another car or didn't place, THEN it would be totally wrong.

Color changing lines are feasible. It is possible in real life. Don't planes use this to land at night? Having cat-eyes that react to speed is also possible. If somebody really wanted them they could have it.

TCS can be added to super old cars if you really wanted.

Rewind cannot be used in real life under any stretch of the imagination.

You right it isnt forced, same as machine guns and power-ups arent forced. It doesnt mean it should be incorporated into the game.

 

[Lucas]

I've never said that outside of actual driving that GT is realistic. B-Spec is unrealistic, nobody said it was. Rewind is a feature that your looking to involve in the core of the game, in the actual driving.

Forget every other part of the game for one second, just consider the core of the game, the actual racing. PD try to make this core as realistic as possible, its the number one reason for GT selling so many copies. For PD to incorporate rewind would be a step closer to arcade, and a step away from realism. They added damage when the machines are powerful enough, this has helped the game evolve, rewind when available in the real life world, should then be considered for integration into the core of GT.

I understand what you mean, and thanks for answering. Though I voted that I don't care if it's included or not, I actually believe it shouldn't be in GT, due to the reasons you posted. What I'm against is that some people want to private others of rewind, but we all have our opinions.

I don't understand why you people want rewind so bad. Sure, it can help with nasty corners like the 3 last ones in Fuji and I'm all for it in practices, but it's not like it's an important tool or anything like that.

It's like licenses. They teach you small bits of tracks at a time.

Rewinding is far from fun if you're using it to practice. Turn, rewind, turn again, rewind, turn yet again, rewind, turn one more time, rewind... See? It's a pain in the ass to read let alone do it!

I don't think people that want rewind want it to make the game more fun. That's not my case, at least. I want it to practice some corners I have no doubt will be a pain in the 🤬 to master in GT5.

Even though it can have legitimate uses as you guys are pointing out and as I stated above, we all know when it will be used. We all know why people want it. You know why you want it. Am I right? What do you say about allowing it only in practice modes? Probably not good right? You want to rewind that race don't you? That race that you screwed up and you know you should start over but you're too lazy and want to rewind, right?

It's funny that you say that. You know what? This poll was made private on purpose, so that people would vote whatever they wanted, without being called out, like you are doing right now. So, I don't believe it's a valid argument you have there.

As I said before, I would never use rewind in a race, because it would take the fun of it.

Lol people come on... just answer me one thing: do you like driving? Because I do. I have no problem stating the race over. I'm buying GT5 to race, not beat it and add to my "beaten games list" and get trophies and what not.

Yeah, I like driving. I like caravans more.

Bottom line, I'm not against rewind at all, I'm all for giving people options and I know most gamers are casual and don't have the patience. Just don't try to say you have legitimate motives. We all know what it will be used for.

Legitimate? What do you mean by legitimate? What the majority considers to be right?

Is it impossible for people not to lie in this world? Correction: Is it impossible for people to say the truth at least once in this world?

 

[Devedander]

Even though it can have legitimate uses as you guys are pointing out and as I stated above, we all know when it will be used. We all know why people want it. You know why you want it. Am I right? What do you say about allowing it only in practice modes? Probably not good right? You want to rewind that race don't you? That race that you screwed up and you know you should start over but you're too lazy and want to rewind, right?

First off, at least you aren't one of the ones saying it's useless and at least can realize it does have some legit uses.

But the rest of your post... just fear and emotion kicking in, not logic.

You assume everyone wants it for the same reason? Unlikely. You assume we all want it so we can all have perfect races every time? There's a big assumption.

First off, do I personally even want it? No... I don't really care. If it was there it woudl be handy for those times someone walks in front of the TV, you sit on the remote and it turns off or changes inputs, or the rare occasion the last corner of that super long endurance race goes south and redoing the whole thing would just be frustrating to the point I probably won't even bother (then again, if I am bspecing it, who knows maybe it won't bother me so much).

But why I do think it's a good idea is that I have a lot of friends who can't enjoy GT because the learning curve is too steep. You and I know the difficulty is part of the fun, but for the learning player it's not fun, it's just frustration.

All state wrestling is probably really fun for those guys who are good, but if you put an inexperienced wrestler in there, he would probably not enjoy and get better, he would just get beaten until he gave up frustrated.

If we can give those lesser drivers a tool so they can overcome the hump, then start enjoying GT the way we do, wouldn't that be a good thing? We want to share the fun in GT with others don't we?

And I have friends (mostly younger ones) who once frustrated won't try to learn anymore, they will just find what fun they can find, and for them, that's smashing into other cars. Well I don't know about you, but I want less of that... if rewind makes learning accessible enough that that frustration barrier goes away even for a few, that means less punters online for all of us... isn't that a good thing?

Basically rewind has all kinds of possible values, it's not a magical tool to make everyone a great racer, and it probably won't help a lot of poeple, but those it does, isn't it worth putting it in for them?

I know I would love to race against my gf in GT, but she doesn't even try anymore because the learning curve is too steep, the best I can do is get her to play rallisport challenge with me (which is incredibly fun anyway so not too bad ) if rewind was there, maybe I could get her to practice some more and not get so frustrated.

Think of rewind like an infinite number of at your fingertips license tests but rather than preconceieved and premade tests that only simulate one exact experience over and over and not a real life racing experience, rewind lets you make any area into a redoable test. And no, doing it's not hard, anyone who has ever played games with rewind knows that redoing a corner over and over is less hassle than going to license mode, finding the most similar licens to the problem you are having, loading it, playing it, skipping the replay and then restarting it.

And how would rewind hurt me or you or anyone who is good at GT? Would it make our accomplishments less? I don't think so... gamesharks and cheat codes have been around for a long time, it never made me feel any less accomplished when I beat a game through clean just because others didn't have to.

I got to the 4th level on contra without using the cheat (I never coudl beat that game without the code) and I felt really good for it regardless of the fact that I and pretty much everyone else used the 30 lives code.

All the games you legitimately beat, the games for which there were cheat codes or gameshark codes or who knows what for... did you feel less accomplishment becuase someone else had access to something that might make the game easier? No I don't think so... so even if you just view rewind as a cheat it STILL doesn't hurt you.

The point is no one gets hurt by rewind, even those who want to use it just to get a perfect career and never actually learn, how does that hurt anyone else? At worst they STILL had to drive every corner successfly at least once and that alone will make them a slightly better driver just by virtue of time spent getting muscle memory.

So that whole long winded point boils down to these three things:

1 Rewind won't hurt you
2 Rewind may help some
3 Rewind won't undermine a legitimate completion of the game

 

[Exorcet]

I don't understand why you people want rewind so bad. Sure, it can help with nasty corners like the 3 last ones in Fuji and I'm all for it in practices, but it's not like it's an important tool or anything like that.

Using such logic, anyone could strip GT down to being a start race button where everytime you get a random car on a random track

Rewinding is far from fun if you're using it to practice. Turn, rewind, turn again, rewind, turn yet again, rewind, turn one more time, rewind... See?
No, I'd have no problem doing that. Your opinion isn't universal. It can be a pain to lap a track when you only want to practice one corner.

It's a pain in the ass to read let alone do it! Also it's not like I know all the other corners lol. I need to work on every single one of them. Even when I perfect a corner in one lap, in the next I'm likely to screw it up. Bottom line, when it comes to practice, rewind can be useful but it's far from a fantastic idea.
No, all you "proved" was that it's bad to use rewind only.

You still need to learn the whole track and it can only allow you to learn it in a new, turn by turn, way. Not the old fashioned and more fun, lap by lap way.
Rewind won't stop you.

Even though it can have legitimate uses as you guys are pointing out and as I stated above, we all know when it will be used. We all know why people want it.
Don't care if it's there or not. Do care if people are against it for no reason. Won't use it to win a race because the only races that matter to me are online where it doesn't work.
You know why you want it. Am I right? What do you say about allowing it only in practice modes? Probably not good right? You want to rewind that race don't you? That race that you screwed up and you know you should
No such thing as should
start over but you're too lazy and want to rewind, right?

Lol people come on... just answer me one thing: do you like driving?
Do you like getting your $60 worth without other people telling you how to spend it? Because I do. If 97% of people wanted rewind to be in the game and you had to use it all the time does that mean that should be the case? No, there would be another way to satisfy everyone.
Because I do. I have no problem stating the race over. I'm buying GT5 to race, not beat it and add to my "beaten games list" and get trophies and what not.
Exactly, so I could use rewind to skip the useless boring scavage for money in GT mode and go race online.

Bottom line, I'm not against rewind at all, I'm all for giving people options and I know most gamers are casual and don't have the patience. Just don't try to say you have legitimate motives. We all know what it will be used for
Utterly devoid of logic and not accepting of other's opinion/individulaity
.

Bold is me

 

[Devedander]

Color changing lines are feasible. It is possible in real life. Don't planes use this to land at night? Having cat-eyes that react to speed is also possible. If somebody really wanted them they could have it.

TCS can be added to super old cars if you really wanted.

Rewind cannot be used in real life under any stretch of the imagination.

You right it isnt forced, same as machine guns and power-ups arent forced. It doesnt mean it should be incorporated into the game.

OK if you want to go to the exteremes, lets' take the "restart is just like waiting for next years race" extreme then. Rewind is the same but it's even more granular, you simulate waiting until next years race, then race it exactly the same up until some given point that you take over from again.

Technically that's possible isn't it? I mean highly unlikely but not impossible so there you go.

Is it the actually SEEING stuff go backwards that's so bad? If rewind was just a clock you could rewind to a certain time would that be better?

Seeing stuff go backwards is just an ease of use thing so you don't have to guess at hunderths of a second, you get exactly where you want.

We can go back and forth all you want about realistic, but in the end it's a game and really what we should be concerned about is how it would hurt you as a paying customer. Let's say PD included a special "flying rainbow hippopotomas" mode along side the normal game. Would that somehow damage your game? No...

 

[sejtur]

And... wow... the argument goes on still!

 

[Cagedheat]

Right on Devedander!

GT5 is going to be about online racing anyways.... rewind wont be much help there. BUT it will help those of us who want to learn specifics.

 

[Dravonic]

.

.

I don't know why I bothered lol. You people are missing the point of the whole game that's all. If you like driving, you don't care about rewind at all. It will only attract those who like to be nursed by the game.

Guess what, GT is a simulator, it's unforgiving by nature. You may try to make it more appealing to casual gamers with rewind, auto brake and whatever other feature Turn 10 copied and claimed to invent. The bottom line is that, rewind or not, the learning curve is the same. It will only be used as a learning tool by those who were willing to learn in the first place. The others just like things easy. That's why they don't play GT.

.

I advise you to learn how to read and interpret before trying to answer.

 

[Lucas]

sejtur

Yes, an actually, we should cut it out. Regardless of who's right or who's wrong, nothing will change. It's all in the hands of Kazunori Yamauchi. This is getting nowhere, and even if we managed to agree, what difference would it make?

 

[sejtur]

sejtur

Yes, an actually, we should cut it out. Regardless of who's right or who's wrong, nothing will change. It's all in the hands of Kazunori Yamauchi. This is getting nowhere, and even if we managed to agree, what difference would it make?

Exactly! 👍
But I also think: what could they do else? I guess people rather talk about useless stuff than watching time go by at an incredibly slow pace. And I think that nobody will agree on this matter ever, looking at the eternal ongoing debates. But because of all the debating I don't really care anymore if it will get in the game or not.

 

[pricey2003]

I am quite positive that some of the people in this thread who want rewind are also the ones who stated in the damage thread (before we got confirmation of damage in GT5) that racing should have consequences.

Why the change of heart?

 

[Devedander]

I am quite positive that some of the people in this thread who want rewind are also the ones who stated in the damage thread (before we got confirmation of damage in GT5) that racing should have consequences.

Why the change of heart?

No change of heart, I wanted damage as an option, and if you hit pause/restart, your damage goes away, that's fine, it's part of the game. As I think most of us agree rewind should have some marker that it happened in leaderboards, but other than that, rewinding out of damage is no different than turning off damage, and those of us who were for damage I think pretty much all agreed an option to turn it off was a good thing.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

OK if you want to go to the exteremes, lets' take the "restart is just like waiting for next years race" extreme then. Rewind is the same but it's even more granular, you simulate waiting until next years race, then race it exactly the same up until some given point that you take over from again.

Technically that's possible isn't it? I mean highly unlikely but not impossible so there you go.

Nope actually its not the same. In fact it is impossible, how can your theory compensate for more than one rewind? Considering the actions of one rewind will directly affect the next rewind?

Is it the actually SEEING stuff go backwards that's so bad? If rewind was just a clock you could rewind to a certain time would that be better?

I dont really care how it looks, no matter hows its implemented it doesnt fit.

Seeing stuff go backwards is just an ease of use thing so you don't have to guess at hunderths of a second, you get exactly where you want.

We can go back and forth all you want about realistic, but in the end it's a game and really what we should be concerned about is how it would hurt you as a paying customer. Let's say PD included a special "flying rainbow hippopotomas" mode along side the normal game. Would that somehow damage your game? No...

Thats because a special flying rainbow hippopotomas version of the game would not be GT5 at its core, ie GT-Mode. If it was left that it was the only version i could play, then yes i would be affected.
If people want rewind then they should buy something else.

Obviously, im in red.

 

[Devedander]

Obviously, im in red.

Obviuosly...

Muliple rewinds are accounted for (again this is a ridiculous extreme but that's where we are) by the fact that at any point in a race, no matter how many rewinds you have used, it's a point YOU can get to, we know this becuase you DID get there. In multiple steps of course, but every corner, every pass, everthing that lead up to that point you did. So maybe if we count every rewind as waiting a year for the next race, then doing it all exactly as you did the previous year until a cretain ponit, even if last year involved doing it precisesly as you did the year previous to that etc etc... now that's just getting ridiculously out of hand and I suppose at some point you would get cataracts and maybe develop cancer and respiratory problems but you see where I am going: There is no point at which rewind puts you somewhere you did not get on your own. You might have tried many times, but every corner was taken by you in the end.

It doesn't fit for you, by your definition of what GT is and what it should be. It fits just fine for me as I look at GT as a multifacetd racing game with sim, educational and entertainment portions all rolled together.

And hippo version wouldn't effect you if you never chose to access it, only version of the game or not. Just like the 30 lives code in contra doesn't effect you if you choose never to utilize it.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

Obviuosly...

Muliple rewinds are accounted for (again this is a ridiculous extreme but that's where we are) by the fact that at any point in a race, no matter how many rewinds you have used, it's a point YOU can get to, we know this becuase you DID get there. In multiple steps of course, but every corner, every pass, everthing that lead up to that point you did. So maybe if we count every rewind as waiting a year for the next race, then doing it all exactly as you did the previous year until a cretain ponit, even if last year involved doing it precisesly as you did the year previous to that etc etc... now that's just getting ridiculously out of hand and I suppose at some point you would get cataracts and maybe develop cancer and respiratory problems but you see where I am going: There is no point at which rewind puts you somewhere you did not get on your own. You might have tried many times, but every corner was taken by you in the end.

Nope still not realistic. Chance of all the cars being in exactly the same place after multiple rewinds, in real life, nil.
The chance of being able to restart a race with competition that are programmed to variable, in real life. Plausible

If my idea of what GT is meant to be is different to yours then maybe you should step back and ask yourself. What is KY/PD idea of GT?
If you find KY allowing rewind,then GT is for you, i'd put money on it that it doesnt make it into GT5. Or into any GT games under KY.
Maybe your idea of what GT is, is actually another game. Maybe try Forza?

Or you could just play the game as PD/KY originally intended, accept you need more practice and do the race over from scratch.

 

[pricey2003]

As I think most of us agree rewind should have some marker that it happened in leaderboards,

Looking at the poll i'd say most of us agreed that rewind should not be in GT5. Wouldn't you agree?

Regarding damage: I will have to take your word for it because there is no way on this earth im browsing through the pages to find what was said.

 

[Organ-Donor]

Or you could just play the game as PD/KY originally intended, accept you need more practice and do the race over from scratch.

👍

 

[Bogie 19th]

Or you could just play the game as PD/KY originally intended, accept you need more practice and do the race over from scratch.

Or you could just have the option to rewind for those who would like to use it, and an option for those that don't want to use it. Solved.

 

[Devedander]

Or you could just play the game as PD/KY originally intended, accept you need more practice and do the race over from scratch.

Well if PD/KY decided they didn't want damage in, it wouldn't change how I feel about a damage option... heck in GT4 they didn't put damage in and I already felt the need for damage.

You make a lot of assumptions as to where I stand in terms of skill. I have already said many times that I rewind wouldn't be a suitable learning tool for me because my skill level is already sufficient that the challenge is fun and not frustrating.

If PD/KY decided they wanted rewind and put it in, would you apply your own logic to yourself?

Looking at the poll i'd say most of us agreed that rewind should not be in GT5. Wouldn't you agree?

Regarding damage: I will have to take your word for it because there is no way on this earth im browsing through the pages to find what was said.

Yes I agree most didn't want rewind or wouldn't care either way. But IF rewind was in, then I think we all agree it at least needs a marker to show it was used.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

Well if PD/KY decided they didn't want damage in, it wouldn't change how I feel about a damage option... heck in GT4 they didn't put damage in and I already felt the need for damage.

.....

If PD/KY decided they wanted rewind and put it in, would you apply your own logic to yourself?

Damage came with evolution. It was coming whether we wanted it or not. It was just a matter of time before the machine could do the required processing to a high standard.

Rewind is not part of evolution to mimic reality.

I am not assuming anything about your skill level. The question is Should GT5 have a rewind option, i say no because it doesn't fit into the game as it currently stands, you say yes.

If PD/KY decide to put rewind in, i'd be pretty dissappointed that the company had changed direction and would start to wonder what would become of the franchise that is GT. So yes, i would apply more own logic, if PD/KY changed direction enough it would probably make me look even closer at competing products.

 

[Dravonic]

I'll try to put it as simple as it can be:

What kind of game is GT?
A real driving simulator.

Is rewind part of real driving?
No.

Should it be left out of the simulation then?
Not necessarily. It's proven to be a handy learning tool and could be used as such.

Can it be used during a race?
No.

Why?
Because then the game would not be a real driving simulator anymore.

You can argue whatever you want, you just can't change the fact that you can't add rewind to the game without changing what it is.

With rewind, you would have a simulator with the option to void the simulation. If you want to be able to void the simulation, why do you want to simulate it in the first place?