McLaren hit with record fine and lose all Constructors points

[GT4 genius]

I think the FIA have done a good job with this verdict , since Ron Dennis is the one who tipped the FIA about the emails

But, eh, huh,eh........ what the hell happened then!!!!
Dennis blew the whistle on his drivers yet it was his whole team that was punished and not the drivers.

 

[m7ammed]

But, eh, huh,eh........ what the hell happened then!!!!
Dennis blew the whistle on his drivers yet it was his whole team that was punished and not the drivers.

but as the WSCM report showed thats not only the drivers but also engineers who knew about the info too , as the report stats its really hard to belive that I test driver would be testing stuff without telling the engineers about it ....

 

[GT4 genius]

but as the WSCM report showed thats not only the drivers but also engineers who knew about the info too , as the report stats its really hard to belive that I test driver would be testing stuff without telling the engineers about it ....

True but if the engineers knew how did Dennis or Whitmarsh not know either, why weren't they told the full story the first time there was a WMSC.
Are they not suppose to run the whole thing, i cant see how something so widespread could go unnoticed for so long.
Maybe it was a case that ron told the FIA because he realised they were about to find out themselves!
I hope this isn't the case though.

 

[Roo]

How can one win the championship in an illegal car?

I don't know. Ask Michael Schumacher.

(In reference to his 1994 Benetton, not any of the Ferraris he drove.)

This is the problem with some fans who get too emotionally involved in favor of or against teams/drivers/players, it breeds double standards and blatantly biased remarks lacking a great deal of logic and objective reasoning.

...enhanced by the end of an event that's been known to be coming for months. Remember, it's less than 30 hours since the punishment was announced. You can bet that most people reacted without being in full possesion of the facts - myself included - and have since calmed down, taken stock, read today's WMSC desicion and let logic and reasoning have a say again, with less emotion involved.

Or at least I like to think so.

On a side note, does anyone else find this all so much that it seems almost unreal?

 

[Alex.]

please dont quote roo's post for heaven's sake!

 

[m7ammed]

On a side note, does anyone else find this all so much that it seems almost unreal?

I think as an F1 I'm just glad its over and that now we could back and focus on what happens on the track instead of off it

 

[Chernaudi]

I don't know why anyone hasn't brought this up(probably because it's forgotten in the lore of F1), but I consider what happened between Arrows and Shadow in 1977-78 worse than what McLaren did to Ferrari.

It also ticks me off that Arrows got of very lightly compared to McLaren, as the FIA really didn't do anything to punish Arrows, as they were accused fo basically copying Shadow's car for the '78 season.

He's how I told of this at the VW Vortex open wheel racing forum:

(start of post)
Speaking of stealing someone else's car design info to build their own, the McLaren vs Ferrari deal isn't new. One of the biggest(but largely forgotten) corporate spying/screw jobs in F1 happened in 1978 between Shadow Cars Inc. and the then newly formed Arrows F1 team. It was basically like McLaren and Ferrari, but the FIA didn't really get involved. Here's the info on what happened and why the FIA didn't get involved like the did between Ferrari and McLaren.

Shadow vs Arrows Saga:

Why didn't the FIA get involved in the Shadow Cars vs Arrows F1 deal in 1978, where Shadow claimed that Arrows stole Shadow's DN9 F1 car design and used it to produce their FA1? Well, let me give a possible answer to my own question.

Backstory:
After the death of Tom Pryce in the '77 South Afican Grand Prix, and Pryce's replacement Alan Jones bolting to Williams for the '78 season, several members of the Shadow team's management(Jackie Oliver, Alan Rees, Tony Southgate, Dave Wass, and Franco Ambrosio, owner of Shadow's primariy sponsor Ambrosio Insurances), tried to buy majoiry interst from Shadow founder/owner Don Nichols.

Sound familiar: Just like Dale Earnhardt Jr and his stepmother Threasa. Dale Jr. wanted majority interest in DEI instead of his minority owner/driver role. Well, just like when Ms. Earnhardt and Jr couldn't work out a deal and Jr left for Hendrick motorsports, the Shadow managers/sponsor decided to start their own team.

The Major Issue(in the context on McLaren vs Ferrari):

Arrows, instead of buying customer cars, took the route of Shadow Cars and decided to build their own cars. Hiring former Shadow designer Tony Southgate was hoped to lead to decent cars for the team, as with Shadow. But with time being so short, Southgate apparently based the FA1 off of the not yet entirely completed DN9. Of course, when one considers that the DN9 was no where near as succesful as the '77 DN8(which was used to win Shadow's only major F1 win, at Austria, though Pryce won the '75 Race of Champions non-points race in the new for '75 DN5-another Southgate design) then the FA1, was a piece of crap, and thus, why did Shadow file a complaint with a British civil court?

Well, Don Nichols, being Shadow's owner, owned part or all of most of the copyrights related to the design of his cars(the DN designation being Nichols' initials). Of course, that being said, Don wasn't very happy to say the least that he found out that the FA1 and DN9 looked very similar, or maybe worse, that the FA1 was an inferior knockoff.

The End Result:
The FIA probably didn't want to get involved, as Shadow was fading into mid-field obscurity, and Arrows was an upstart team that much wasn't expected of. However, Shadow decided that what the FIA wouldn't try to fix, they'd do themselves in British civil court.

Shadow tried successfuly to get an injuction and also tried to sue Arrows for copyright infringement. The court brokered a settlement where Shadow would drop the lawsuit if Arrows modified the FA1 to less resemble the DN9. As a result, as they knew(dispite copyrights regarding car designs being hard to prove) they'd probably loose the case, they redesigned the FA1, and the A1 ran the second half of the '78 season, but it was little more successful than the FA1, or the DN9 for that matter. And as the DN9 wasn't particulary successful, you can see how bad Arrows did with their FA1/A1 copies.

So in the end, this was a pretty big freakin' screw job that Arrows pulled on Shadow. In the end, Shadow still got screwed, as they still lost their sponsor, and much of their management. Granted, Shadow probably wasn't gonna stick it out for very long due to the politics of the sport. But they had to scrap together sponsorship(from Villager cigars and Tabatip cigars/cigarettes), and had to rely on pay drivers(Elio de Angelis and Jan Lammers) in '79. De Angelis and Lammers leaving, as well as the DN9B being obsolete basically put Shadow out of business in mid 1980, even after Nichols sold half the team to Teddy Yip's Theodore operation early in the season.

Is what McLaren did a screw job. Yes, pretty much, if they actually did use info to deveolop their own cars. But Ferrari has pulled or tried to pull screw overs too. Like the illegal moving floor pan on the cars at Austrialia, which is another reason that Ferrari is ticked. But everyone in racing, be it F1, NASCAR, ALMS, Grand Am, etc., the theory is if you're not bending rules or cheating, you're not trying. But what McLaren is accused of pales in comparison to what happended in 1978(end post).

So you see, this crap(or even worse) has happened before.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

What's your point exactly? OJ Simpson is walking the streets... a lot of people, companies, teams, etc are not punished fairly for "breaking the rules", does that mean because one person got away with it, everyone should?

Besides, bringing up a thirty year old case with significant differences, different rules, different conditions, and very different scales of economies, to perhaps question the punishment of McLaren is more than a stretch. A lot has changed in thirty years.

Considering what we know of the case, and what the FIA could have done to McLaren as a response to the findings, which included an officially announced warning of a possible two year suspension from F1 and even a permanent ban, McLaren has gotten off with a relatively light punishment.

At this point, let's just be grateful McLaren is still allowed to race for the drivers championship and enjoy the rest of the season as best we can. 👍

 

[Sharky.]

I think this whole "spy" saga is stupid. There wasn't any proof McLaren ever used the information they were given in the creation and modification of their cars. Heck, the McLaren guy was given the data by a Ferrari employee! Ferrari ran an illegal car at the Aussie GP, won the race, and got off scot-free. Renault's mass-dampers were deemed legal, Ferrari kicked up a stink about it and so the MDs got banned etc.

See the common connection? Ferrari.

Personally, I see Ferrari as a team with their heads stuck up their ass. What I saw was Ferrari were sick of being beaten by McLaren's Spanish guy and his hot-shot rookie teammate that they had to beat McLaren any way they could, even if it meant doing it in the courtroom.

I have no respect at all for Ferrari, or the FIA, after this "spy" scandal.

All I want to see are the teams racing legitimately, fairly and evenly, without all this finger-pointing. Not too much to ask for, is it?

 

[Blake]

I think the FIA have done a good job with this verdict , since Ron Dennis is the one who tipped the FIA about the emails

Respect to Ron, then. 👍

You can bet that most people reacted without being in full possesion of the facts - myself included - and have since calmed down, taken stock, read today's WMSC desicion and let logic and reasoning have a say again, with less emotion involved.

Or at least I like to think so.

Yes, after the reasoning behind the decision was released it is much easier to see why the decision was reached, even though there is no proof that McLaren management knew what was going on.

However, I’m rather bothered by the fact that de la Rosa and Alonso are completely immune from any punishment and that once some time has passed they will come out of this looking clean.

I wonder if McLaren can (or if they would) press charges against individuals who have damaged the organisation? I’m sure any McLaren employees signed a contract when they joined stating that they would not act in a way that is in breach of the sporting regulations, so it seems to me that if they wanted to go down that route they probably could.

 

[Muzaffar]

Ok, after reading more about the report, i really hate to say it but....McLaren are guilty! Hands down.... i mean if every crew member knows about it (except Ron Dennis) they should have reported it to the FIA much earlier and have Ferrari on the hot seat But it was not to be.... to be honest, F1 has been more tainted than before now. I mean these type of controversy does make F1 more interesting but it really hurts us true F1 fans I wish they just make it like A1GP. Same chassis and engine with no traction control would make it more exciting that this and less controversy.... (although that would just not be F1 doesn't it....)

But the fact that it has already happens, i guess we all can't do anything about it. Yeah, Ferrari get what they want but remember, without teams like McLaren, BMW or Renault, Ferrari better have their own championship rather than racing in F1 beating all those other smaller teams. I know Ferrari is the longest running team in F1 and that it has a high reputation for being the best. But i think its just unfair for them to win the constructors title just like that.

What would happen to Prodrive now that McLaren has got this fine and bad to deal with? Is Prodrive even going to get to race next year because of this? Would Prodrive still be using McLaren parts and still be called a "McLaren B-Team"?

 

[slidesquad#1]

Personally, I see Ferrari as a team with their heads stuck up their ass. What I saw was Ferrari were sick of being beaten by McLaren's Spanish guy and his hot-shot rookie teammate that they had to beat McLaren any way they could, even if it meant doing it in the courtroom.

No offense, but do you have any idea of what you are talking about?

Ferrari were sick of being beaten by McLaren and had to resort to the courtroom. Care to explain why being beaten by McLaren for half a season is worse than being beaten by Renault for two? Because...you know...that's what happened in 2005 and 2006. And provided how there's very credible information that McLaren had technical details pertaining to Ferrari's car, why the hell would Ferrari NOT make a fuss?

All I want to see are the teams racing legitimately, fairly and evenly, without all this finger-pointing. Not too much to ask for, is it?

I don't think anyone wants otherwise, but, remind me again, how exactly does having top-secret information about a rival team fulfill the bolded criteria?

McLaren hosed up, they were caught, they face the consequences. Deal with it.

they should have reported it to the FIA much earlier and have Ferrari on the hot seat

How exactly would a disgruntled employee leaking secret data get Ferrari into the hot seat again?

 

[Blake]

I wish they just make it like A1GP. Same chassis and engine with no traction control would make it more exciting that this and less controversy....

Have fun watching second rate drivers crash into each-other again this winter, then. 👍

 

[Muzaffar]

How exactly would a disgruntled employee leaking secret data get Ferrari into the hot seat again?

Well Stepney was the one who leaked out the secrets and Ferrari should have found out earlier or that they handle the situation better (and read the whole sentence. I said "If McLaren reported it to the FIA")

Have fun watching second rate drivers crash into each-other again this winter, then. 👍

Don't mind if i do. I will be supporting Malaysia all the way

 

[slidesquad#1]

Well Stepney was the one who leaked out the secrets and Ferrari should have found out earlier or that they handle the situation better (and read the whole sentence. I said "If McLaren reported it to the FIA")

My point remains exactly the same. What could McLaren do in this situation to place Ferrari in the hot seat? What would they report? "Ferrari technician trying to give us data...punish them?"

Also, from a Ferrari perspective, how exactly could you handle the situation better knowing that McMerc had access to info about their car? Pretend it didn't happen for the 'good of the sport'?

 

[tigermoth737]

I'd only be blowing my top right now if McLaren were excluded in the Drivers Championship. Considering that they miss out on the Constructors Championship (Which no one even cares about) I think the FIA made the right decision, it should be a 'team penalty' rather then a driver penalty.

 

[Muzaffar]

My point remains exactly the same. What could McLaren do in this situation to place Ferrari in the hot seat? What would they report? "Ferrari technician trying to give us data...punish them?"

Also, from a Ferrari perspective, how exactly could you handle the situation better knowing that McMerc had access to info about their car? Pretend it didn't happen for the 'good of the sport'?

Okay, i don't know about that part at all. But if someone was about to give you drugs, what would you do? Take the drugs or report it to the police? (this is not a really good example. I'm so sorry for that ) I mean if that happens you could only blame one man as a team. There were already clues that Nigel Stepney was unhappy with Ferrari . What did Ferrari do? Nothing, and when the thing already happens, Ferrari blames the other team (which turns out to be correct) So Ferrari actually should have control the situation properly and not leave everything alone and pretend it was nothing....

 

[mipuumal]

Okay, i don't know about that part at all. But if someone was about to give you drugs, what would you do? Take the drugs or report it to the police? (this is not a really good example. I'm so sorry for that ) I mean if that happens you could only blame one man as a team. There were already clues that Nigel Stepney was unhappy with Ferrari . What did Ferrari do? Nothing, and when the thing already happens, Ferrari blames the other team (which turns out to be correct) So Ferrari actually should have control the situation properly and not leave everything alone and pretend it was nothing....

Actually, Ferrari only got wind of this whole thing when Stepney supposedly put some illegal substance in their fueltanks in Monaco.

When they found out about that, they didn't immediately start going

💡 OMG McLaren IS TRYING TO GET US DISQUALIFIED!!!!1!!!one!eleven

instead they gave the case to the Italian courts who started to investigate Stepney.

Only after that did they find out that he had been communicating with Coughlan and so forth.

 

[slidesquad#1]

Okay, i don't know about that part at all. But if someone was about to give you drugs, what would you do? Take the drugs or report it to the police? (this is not a really good example. I'm so sorry for that ) I mean if that happens you could only blame one man as a team. There were already clues that Nigel Stepney was unhappy with Ferrari . What did Ferrari do? Nothing, and when the thing already happens, Ferrari blames the other team (which turns out to be correct) So Ferrari actually should have control the situation properly and not leave everything alone and pretend it was nothing....

I See what you're trying to hint at here. However, using your example, you don't blame the pharmaceutical company the drug dealer stole the ingredients for his drugs from. Also generally it's a good idea to report the drugs before giving samples to your mates (i.e. settings to Pedro and co.). Or not take them at all and walk the other way.

People are unhappy with their jobs all the time. Stepney (apparently) wanted Brawn's job. He didn't get it. He was a bit pissed. That doesn't give him the right to do what he did. Or give Ferrari any particular reason to 'keep an eye on him,' as it were.
Also, you say Ferrari do nothing about him. I say he's unemployed. What else should/could have Ferrari done? Hidden cameras in his house? Tapped his phones? Put a PI on his ass?
Where do you have ANY information regarding them leaving the situation alone and pretending it was nothing?

 

[slackbladder]

I'm a bit dim on this whole thing. How did McLaren use this information for their advantage (I'm sure it's been explained but I'm working 12 hour shifts this week and I've had little sleep)? Obviously information was passed. But McLaren changed their car with this information how? Or am I missing the point?
And as for Alonso, after threatening Dennis to give this information to the FIA, is his position in the team untenable? Ironically it was Dennis that called the FIA to tell them this (at least he told Alonso to contact them, believeing it was a bluff - implying that Dennis knew nothing. Why contact the FIA if you're guilty?)news.bbc.co.uk
It seems awfully complicated. And I'm tired and my brain hurts...

 

[Venari]

Language warning... but the infamous www.sniffpetrol.com has its one-liner picture pee-take say as per usual.

 

[Alfaholic]

Have fun watching second rate drivers crash into each-other again this winter, then. 👍

More fun than watching the LA Law vs. Dynasty reruns that F1's (that's the FIA AND the teams) been serving up for ages.

EDIT: At least the guy who wins an A1GP was driving a car, not a courtroom desk..

 

[Sureboss]

They look like nervous learner drivers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6996172.stm

FIA president Max Mosley says he will look to sanction any attempt by McLaren to impede the 25-year-old Spaniard.

Forget the several years of Schumi, Max? Oh no wait, that was completely fair. Wouldn't it be nice if the FIA was run by real people?

Hopefully this saga will end quickly and we can get back to what really matters, the racing.

 

[Roo]

Ferrari ran an illegal car at the Aussie GP, won the race, and got off scot-free. Renault's mass-dampers were deemed legal, Ferrari kicked up a stink about it and so the MDs got banned etc.

Ferrari ran a car that stretched the regulations a bit too far, so the regs were tightened from then on. In the same way, Hamilton was rescued from a dangerous position by the marshels with a crane at the Nurburgring, so he was allowed to continue for that race; after the race the regs were tightened, making it illegal to re-enter a race with assistance from a trackside crane.

Ferrari try to get Renault's gadgets banned. McLaren try to get Ferrari's gadgets banned. You've just discovered the wonders of the Formula 1 merry-go-round; "we try to get their stuff banned, they try to get our stuff banned". And so it has been since the 60s.

I wish they just make it like A1GP. Same chassis and engine with no traction control

Given the tightness of the current technical regulations, it's more or less exactly that (bar the traction control, which will be gone 5 races from now).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6996172.stm

It's only taken 13 races, but Ron finally seems to have gotten through to him. Nothing like a 2 month drama and $100 mil fine to bring a team together, eh?

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Motorsport chief Mosley Accuses McLaren of Lying in Spying Row
FIA president Max Mosley has accused McLaren chief Ron Dennis of looking him in the eye and lying during the Formula One spying investigation.
Published September 15, 2007 by AFP

In a television interview Mosley explained the sequence of events that led to the emergence of critical email evidence; evidence that would lead to McLaren's record 100 million dollar fine and exclusion from the constructors' championship.

Dennis confirmed on Saturday that Spanish world champion Fernando Alonso had approached him at the Hungarian Grand Prix threatening to leak damaging emails between himself and test driver Pedro de la Rosa.

Mosley told ITV his version of events: "On the morning of the Hungarian Grand Prix, Ron rang me and he said, 'I've just had Alonso in the motorhome and he says he's got information and he's threatening to give it to the Federation.'"

"So I said, 'What did you say Ron?' He said, 'I said, go on and hand it over.'"

"I said, 'Ron, you said exactly the right thing.'"

"And then Ron said, 'But there isn't any information.'"

"So I said, 'So it's an empty threat?'"

"And he replied: 'Yes, a completely empty threat. There's no information, there's nothing to come out; I can assure you that if there was something, Max, I would have told you.'"

"Now this was a week after looking me in the eye in the World Council and telling me there was absolutely nothing wrong and everybody had done exactly as they should do, so I believed him."

"I've known Ron for 40 years; it's very difficult for me, when somebody I've known for 40 years looks me in the eye and says, 'Max, I'm telling the truth with complete sincerity' - you believe him."

"It was only when I got the list from the Italian police (showing) 323 SMS phone calls going over a three-month period between Coughlan and Stepney, (that I concluded) there had to be more to this."

"You don't get 300 messages arranging a visit to Honda. This is something serious. At which point, I sat down and wrote the letter to the drivers (asking for their evidence), and the rest is history."

Dennis responded to Mosley on the same show, insisting that he has acted with total integrity throughout the whole affair.

"I don't want to get into the detail, but I do want to address one thing, and that is that when someone asks me a question - and I've answered some difficult questions - at the time I made those answers I told the complete truth," Dennis said.

"At the point of the first hearing, when I was asked the question did I know anything more, the truth was, I didn't."

"The emails that passed between our drivers were as big a surprise to me when I heard, as anyone else - and as I said, if they existed, what I said to Fernando was that he must give them to the FIA."

"I just want to be very clear that at no stage did I ever say any lie to anybody."

"I put my integrity above everything. I just want to be very clear about that particular point."

At this point I think Ron Denis would serve himself and McLaren best if he stopped trying to convince everyone of his "integrity" and focus on the races remaining in the season.

 

[Venari]

Hmm.

Let's take Ron's side here, just for a second. What if the 'team' were batting this info around, but Ron didn't know?

Interesting situation, no?

I have known companies where employees will develop solutions or products in 'skunk works' without telling bosses, usually because the bosses have explicitly denied the solution should be developed, even if it it the obvious thing to do. Usually, the bosses change their minds and all of a sudden things are ahead of schedule.

Of course, this situation is different.

I find it interesting that Mr Hamilton had no e-mails to give up. But, when asked to give up information the first time around by the FiA, de la Rosa and Alonso did nothing - and (if Ron is to be believed) didn't even tell Ron Dennis. Does this not smack of someone holding back information to use as blackmail material?

I'm glad I didn't go into the motorsport industry when I had the chance. What a bed of snakes.

 

[Diego440]

I'm glad I didn't go into the motorsport industry when I had the chance. What a bed of snakes.

What were you going for? Cheerleader?

It would be funny to see you with your pom-poms, flashing at the cameras and throwing dirty looks at the grid girls.

 

[GT4 genius]

It almost appears that Alonso was trying to blackmail ron in hungary.
I doubt Alonso will be with McLaren next year, despite any contract.
But who is going to harbour a cheat!

 

[nitro_2005]

Personally I think that Alonso's reputation is now in tatters. I mean, after threatening to lift the lid on all the secrets of the scandal, if he leaves it just begs the question: who would want to employ him after trying to blackmail his team boss into making him no. 1? Alonso just seems to be acting like a spoilt brat.

 

[darkfinal]

I find it interesting that Mr Hamilton had no e-mails to give up.

Of course he had, he just didn't give them up until he was asked twice.