McLaren "invited" to a extraordinary WMSC meeting

[Peter]

Mclaren will either be down or out, but considering it's the start of the year, out is whaat i think will happen(not that i want this to happen)

 

[Peter]

fresh from formula1.com

The FIA has released the following statement:

"Vodafone McLaren Mercedes has been invited to appear before an extraordinary meeting of the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Paris on Wednesday, 29 April, 2009, to answer charges that, in breach of Article 151c of the International Sporting Code, it

- on 29 March, 2009, told the stewards of the Australian Grand Prix that no instructions were given to Hamilton in Car No. 1 to allow Trulli in Car no. 9 to pass when both cars were behind the safety car, knowing this statement to be untrue;

- procured its driver Hamilton the current World Champion, to support and confirm this untrue statement to the stewards;

- although knowing that as a direct result of its untrue statement to the stewards, another driver and a rival team had been unfairly penalised, made no attempt to rectify the situation either by contacting the FIA or otherwise;

- on 2 April, 2009, at a second hearing before the stewards of the Australian Grand Prix, (meeting in Malaysia) made no attempt to correct the untrue statement of 29 March but, on the contrary, continued to maintain that the statement was true, despite being allowed to listen to a recording of the team instructing Hamilton to let Trulli past and despite being given more than one opportunity to correct its false statement;

- on 2 April, 2009, at the second stewards' hearing, procured its driver Hamilton to continue to assert the truth of the false statement given to the stewards on 29 March, while knowing that what he was saying to the stewards was not true."

In response, McLaren issued the following press release:
"McLaren acknowledges receipt of an invitation to appear at an FIA World Motor Sport Council meeting in Paris on April 29, received this afternoon. We undertake to co-operate fully with all WMSC processes, and welcome the opportunity to work with the FIA in the best interests of Formula 1.

"This afternoon McLaren and its former sporting director, Dave Ryan, have formally parted company. As a result, he is no longer an employee of any of the constituent companies of the McLaren Group."

now i'm pretty sure they're screwed

 

[Tobias123]

I know lol, but I'm shocked anyone could think that the FIA are somehow in the wrong in this case....

Well the FIA has a history of screwing McLaren and Lewis over(like at Spa, which I still believe was wrong despite not being even remotely a Lewis fanboy), but hopefully most people will see reason with this eventually. I absolutely agree with you on how serious this is, and despite loving McLaren when I was growing up, I feel that they deserve to have the book thrown at them for this.

 

[NapoleonMikey]

i agree McLaren should have a more severe punishment. maybe not disqualification for the whole season but something severe none the less.

 

[Nicksfix]

No, this isn't overblown.....I feel like I'm the only one who realises the consequences of what McLaren have done. Are you all mad? I mean McLaren tried to get another team disqualified unfairly through lying!

Agreed 100%.

McLaren knew exactly what they were doing when they radio'd Lewis about the Trulli situation.

Bottom line : McLaren is in deep 🤬 right now.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

If they want to start "cleaning" the category, they could start by getting rid of Bernie and his gang.

I'm astounded at the way people keep making such stupid statements. All Ecclestone is trying to do is increase the sport's appeal to the public. And if he fails, at worst he is a necessary evil. I'm am yet to see conclusive proof that Bernie Ecclestone is Formula One's equivalent of Satan. The sport is at its most competitive stage in years, and I daresay a lot of that comes down to Ecclestone' influence. His concern is the future of the sport, and he's already reeled in five new rounds - Singapore, Valencia, Abu Dhabi, Korea and India - as well as two news teams in the shape of United States Grand Prix Engineering and Hyundai F1, while Dave Ricahrds is talking about finally getting Prodrive onto the grid, not to mention tha someone needs to buy Toro Rosso. Four new teams, five new rounds, the spectacle of night races like Singapore and the sport being the most competitive it has been in decades. That's a pretty impressive resume right there, and the only off-beat note is Valencia (but I give it the benefit of the doubt; sometimes you just have a bad race and the new regulations could very well shake things up). So what, at the end of the day, makes Bernie Ecclestone the incaration of evil in Formula One?

But say you're right for a moment. Say he goes. Who, exactly, will replace him? How, exactly, will this benefit Formula One? And how can you be certain that that person won't run the sport into the ground? I bet you can't answer, because after all, it's better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

 

[Tobias123]

I'm astounded at the way people keep making such stupid statements. All Ecclestone is trying to do is increase the sport's appeal to the public. And if he fails, at worst he is a necessary evil. I'm am yet to see conclusive proof that Bernie Ecclestone is Formula One's equivalent of Satan. The sport is at its most competitive stage in years, and I daresay a lot of that comes down to Ecclestone' influence. His concern is the future of the sport, and he's already reeled in five new rounds - Singapore, Valencia, Abu Dhabi, Korea and India - as well as two news teams in the shape of United States Grand Prix Engineering and Hyundai F1, while Dave Ricahrds is talking about finally getting Prodrive onto the grid, not to mention tha someone needs to buy Toro Rosso. Four new teams, five new rounds, the spectacle of night races like Singapore and the sport being the most competitive it has been in decades. That's a pretty impressive resume right there, and the only off-beat note is Valencia (but I give it the benefit of the doubt; sometimes you just have a bad race and the new regulations could very well shake things up). So what, at the end of the day, makes Bernie Ecclestone the incaration of evil in Formula One?

But say you're right for a moment. Say he goes. Who, exactly, will replace him? How, exactly, will this benefit Formula One? And how can you be certain that that person won't run the sport into the ground? I bet you can't answer, because after all, it's better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

Thank you! I've been waiting forever to hear someone say this. I don't particularly like Bernie Ecclestone to be honest, but he has done a bloody brilliant job with F1, and apart from the Medal system suggestion, his ideas have been very good in general and have brought Formula One to an incredibly high level of popularity and competitiveness, and it only looks to be going up.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Thank you! I've been waiting forever to hear someone say this. I don't particularly like Bernie Ecclestone to be honest, but he has done a bloody brilliant job with F1, and apart from the Medal system suggestion, his ideas have been very good in general and have brought Formula One to an incredibly high level of popularity and competitiveness, and it only looks to be going up.

Actually, I think Ecclestone may have inended the medals system to fail all along. He does that: when he has a proposal that he thinks is going to take a while to bring the teams around to it, he tends to make an even more outrageous suggestion and then bargain them down to his original idea so tat they think they're getting a great deal and he gets what he wants.

 

[Tobias123]

Actually, I think Ecclestone may have inended the medals system to fail all along. He does that: when he has a proposal that he thinks is going to take a while to bring the teams around to it, he tends to make an even more outrageous suggestion and then bargain them down to his original idea so tat they think they're getting a great deal and he gets what he wants.

While that's certainly a possibility, I do believe he wants a "Winner Takes All" system implemented. The real decoy I think him and Max are using is the extremely low budget cap, I think they're going to milk that for all that it's worth until the teams agree to a sum.

 

[Lofasz]

but technically he should have been in that position to begin with. Trulli went off track.

I honestly think they didn't know what to do, and when the race was over if they had said something they would have been given the 25 second penalty.

That was my thinking as well. The whole thing stinks. The FIA should have a clear rule, for where a car should end up, after going off track during the safety car. Maybe they do already, but I haven't heard about it.

IMO, the FIA need to be more clear with their rules. Time and time again, I see instances where it seems it's just up to the steward's discretion, since there's no rule to abide to.

 

[Tobias123]

That was my thinking as well. The whole thing stinks. The FIA should have a clear rule, for where a car should end up, after going off track during the safety car. Maybe they do already, but I haven't heard about it.

IMO, the FIA need to be more clear with their rules. Time and time again, I see instances where it seems it's just up to the steward's discretion, since there's no rule to abide to.

Lewis was supposed to be in that situation in the first place, but the fact is that they willingly gave the spot back to Trulli, which should have been the end of it. But then McLaren chose to go in and willingly lie to the Stewards and get a rival team(that was innocent) punished. The issue is no longer about the position, the issue is now about willingly deceiving the Stewards to get a rival unfairly penalized.

 

[fasj6418]

No, this isn't overblown.....I feel like I'm the only one who realises the consequences of what McLaren have done. Are you all mad? I mean McLaren tried to get another team disqualified unfairly through lying! This is the biggest joke made of the rules I have ever experienced! Not only are they making the FIA look like fools but they are also screwing over fellow teams in FOTA and laughing in the face of sportsmanship.

If they had let McLaren get away with it with minor punishment, whos to stop them doing it again? Would you feel the same if they got another driver unfairly disqualified through the same circumstances?

The FIA are more worried about Toyota leaving because of all this mess than Mercedes.

No, i'm not saying that this is a small thing, but i trully believe that they will only fine the team because nobody wins with McLaren being punished. Spygate was way worse and they weren't banned, so i don't see them getting a ban this time, that's why i say "overblown" because people are expecting too big of a punishment, which would surprise me if it happened.

Were they wrong? Of course, but it might be a bad business desicion to just throw them out of the game.

 

[fasj6418]

I'm astounded at the way people keep making such stupid statements. All Ecclestone is trying to do is increase the sport's appeal to the public. And if he fails, at worst he is a necessary evil. I'm am yet to see conclusive proof that Bernie Ecclestone is Formula One's equivalent of Satan. The sport is at its most competitive stage in years, and I daresay a lot of that comes down to Ecclestone' influence. His concern is the future of the sport, and he's already reeled in five new rounds - Singapore, Valencia, Abu Dhabi, Korea and India - as well as two news teams in the shape of United States Grand Prix Engineering and Hyundai F1, while Dave Ricahrds is talking about finally getting Prodrive onto the grid, not to mention tha someone needs to buy Toro Rosso. Four new teams, five new rounds, the spectacle of night races like Singapore and the sport being the most competitive it has been in decades. That's a pretty impressive resume right there, and the only off-beat note is Valencia (but I give it the benefit of the doubt; sometimes you just have a bad race and the new regulations could very well shake things up). So what, at the end of the day, makes Bernie Ecclestone the incaration of evil in Formula One?

But say you're right for a moment. Say he goes. Who, exactly, will replace him? How, exactly, will this benefit Formula One? And how can you be certain that that person won't run the sport into the ground? I bet you can't answer, because after all, it's better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

I often mistake Bernie with Mosley. This is one of those cases. I know both are not saints, but Mosley is was worse. On that particular post, what i thought was Mosley, but ended up typing Bernie.

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

The issue is no longer about the position, the issue is now about willingly deceiving the Stewards to get a rival unfairly penalized.

I don't think McLaren cared where Trulli ended; it was all about keeping position. He could've ended 4th, as long as they held to 3rd.

That was my thinking as well. The whole thing stinks. The FIA should have a clear rule, for where a car should end up, after going off track during the safety car. Maybe they do already, but I haven't heard about it.

IMO, the FIA need to be more clear with their rules. Time and time again, I see instances where it seems it's just up to the steward's discretion, since there's no rule to abide to.

You hit the nail on the head. Had F1's rulebook been clear and concise, none of this would've happened. Neither would there be a controversy over diffusers, nor would Belgium 2008 or Fuji 2007. But alas, the FIA is only good for clarifying things after the fact, leaving it to half-trained bums to interpret things at will. And I think it's gonna get worse this year as Bernie and Max play their power games against the newly formed FOTA.

All Ecclestone is trying to do is increase the sport's appeal to the public. And if he fails, at worst he is a necessary evil. I'm am yet to see conclusive proof that Bernie Ecclestone is Formula One's equivalent of Satan. The sport is at its most competitive stage in years, and I daresay a lot of that comes down to Ecclestone' influence.

I'll give the FIA credit for increased competitiveness, even if as a result of cost cutting. So I guess they get a cookie for being able to tell that the economy was going down the toilet - good for them. He may not be Satan (until the "winner takes all" joke goes through), but he's no St. Peter either. I'm not convinced myself that Ecclestone is indispensable - there are several people acquainted with the inner workings of GP racing who actually understand what it's about and are available. But the man won't go down gracefully.

His concern is the future of the sport, and he's already reeled in five new rounds - Singapore, Valencia, Abu Dhabi, Korea and India - as well as two news teams in the shape of United States Grand Prix Engineering and Hyundai F1, while Dave Ricahrds is talking about finally getting Prodrive onto the grid, not to mention tha someone needs to buy Toro Rosso. Four new teams, five new rounds, the spectacle of night races like Singapore and the sport being the most competitive it has been in decades. That's a pretty impressive resume right there...

It's only impressive if you take the Prodrive and STR rumors for certain and ignore the total exclusion of North America with the loss of both the USGP and the Canadian GP, not to mention the uncertainty of the British GP and the departure of Super Aguri, Spyker and Honda. And night racing is not a sport saving measure. Only as an American I can retain some hope that USGPE can survive without a market to cater to, considering that F1 struggled with NASCAR (really....NASCAR) for audience, and that's when they had 2 races in North America...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It's only impressive if you take the Prodrive and STR rumors for certain

I'm not saying it's certain. In fact, I'm treating them as separate entities. The fact is that Toro Rosso has to be sold before 2010 owing to rules about ownership and customer cars. That's not to say Prodrive will buy it or even make it to the grid, but the point is that there is room for potentially four new teams.

And I'd hardly think the loss of the American and Canadian Grands Prix is Ecclestone's fault. If the circuits can't raise the money to host a round - not simply cover FOM's fee, but everything that goes with it like marketing and promotions, upgrades and the like - you can't pin it all on him.

 

[Sureboss]

Someone needs to change the title, I can't take "invited" seriously.

 

[Tired Tyres]

And I'd hardly think the loss of the American and Canadian Grands Prix is Ecclestone's fault. If the circuits can't raise the money to host a round - not simply cover FOM's fee, but everything that goes with it like marketing and promotions, upgrades and the like - you can't pin it all on him.

It is if the cost of hosting a Grand Prix is as high as the circuit owners complain about. After all there are a maximum of 20 Grands Prix each season and if FOM was reasonable about the fee there would be 20 a year.

Back on topic, I think Hamilton will be banned for at least one race but McLaren will get away with a fine as they have already fired the team member they blame for the whole episode.

 

[Alex.]

McLaren is screwed. I can't see them getting out of this "meeting" unscathed...

I bet when they saw the invite they couldn't wait for pass the parcel and goodie bags at the end

 

[Hun200kmh]

Someone needs to change the title, I can't take "invited" seriously.

Well, if you read the press releases both from FIA and McLaren, that's the word used. Of course they use it without "" (don't know the english name for these) but while writing the thread title I thought they would be appropriate.

 

[Ardius]

Back on topic, I think Hamilton will be banned for at least one race but McLaren will get away with a fine as they have already fired the team member they blame for the whole episode.

I don't know, the consensus over that is Ryan is basically a fall guy over this.
I refuse to believe McLaren didn't know what they were doing nor knew the consequences to other drivers when they didn't tell the truth.

An interesting quote from a month ago:
http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews/2009/3/9017.html
"Martin Whitmarsh: In this team, we operate a responsibility culture, not a blame culture. In other words, we perform a root cause analysis of a problem, and then we fix that problem. Apportioning blame plays no part in that process."

Hmm, so quick to blame Ryan for this, eh? The evidence points to McLaren lying as a whole, not one man.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I agree . It is not believable that Mr. Ryan acted on his own, made Hamilton his puppet and, apart from them, nobody else knew what was going on.

This is all a real mess. And it sounds so stupid to take the risk of a severe punishment because of ONE point (I know, one point made the difference last year, but to lie, to unfairly get someone else penalized, and to do it in a very stupid way is just beyond what I can understand).

I really don't want any team (in this case, McLaren) to get penalties that will ruin all their effort for this year's championship, and I really don't want any driver (in this case, Hamilton) to be also penalized in a way that makes him unable to fight for the championship. I wish it all never happened.

 

[Famine]

The evidence points to McLaren lying as a whole, not one man.

Last time one employee of McLaren was found guilty of something, the whole team was disqualified for two seasons - one suspended.

 

[Ardius]

Last time one employee of McLaren was found guilty of something, the whole team was disqualified for two seasons - one suspended.

Two seasons?
Well, its basically the same case here, I had a hard time believing whether McLaren didn't know about "what used to be Ferrari designs" and in this case I have a hard time believing them when they say Ryan did this all by himself, especially when I read the above quote only a month ago.

 

[Famine]

Yes. Two seasons, one suspended (as in they would only be disqualified for the second season if they offended again [in the form of the design of the 2008 car]).

 

[Ardius]

Ah ok, I didn't know about that.

 

[niky]

And this time, the evidence is pretty damning... While I don't see two seasons' disqualifications coming of this, one season's disqualification isn't far-fetched...

 

[Famine]

Let's not forget Renault was found guilty of having the entire previous 2 seasons' McLaren on their main computer system just a matter of weeks later - far more damning than one employee having access to the 2007 Ferrari and using it with no evidence to suggest his employers knew anything about it - but had no similar punishment...


However, if McLaren are found guilty of lying to the stewards - even if it's just one employee who thought it'd be fine to instruct a driver to do it - they deserve to be thrown out for the season. And since Hamilton - however misguidedly - is the one who allegedly did the lying, if found guilty he also should be disqualified for the season.

I say "if" they're found guilty. We know they will be...

 

[Sureboss]

Well, if you read the press releases both from FIA and McLaren, that's the word used. Of course they use it without "" (don't know the english name for these) but while writing the thread title I thought they would be appropriate.

Quotation marks.

It wasn't a go at you, the thread starter, but I'm completely bemused at the idea of McLaren being "invited" to this EGM with the WMSC.

 

[nissan tuner]

However, if McLaren are found guilty of lying to the stewards - even if it's just one employee who thought it'd be fine to instruct a driver to do it - they deserve to be thrown out for the season. And since Hamilton - however misguidedly - is the one who allegedly did the lying, if found guilty he also should be disqualified for the season.

I say "if" they're found guilty. We know they will be...

If any of those 2 scenarios happened, Hamilton will most likely leave the team

 

[Ardius]

If any of those 2 scenarios happened, Hamilton will most likely leave the team

I really hope he does, for his own reputation sakes. He needs to get away from these companies telling him what to say and just be a driver who has his own opinions. I can't help but think that if he had driven for any other team in the paddock he wouldn't sound so corporate in all of his conferences.
I mean, looking at the contrast between the podium conferences of last year to the ones of this year - say for example: Hamilton, Massa and Raikkonen compared to Button, Heidfeld and Glock this year. Or even the qualifying conference with Button, Trulli and Vettel. They're all smiling, they're joking, they have some kind of personality. With the McLaren and to a lesser extent, Ferrari drivers, its all serious business (though Massa isn't always bad, its really Raikkonen letting the side down).

Perhaps this is down to the fact that none of the drivers in said conferences this year expected to be where they are but I think there is an element of personality with these drivers.