Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes/The Phantom Pain

[prisonermonkeys]

It doesn't make sense that Konami is making MGS5 and wouldn't announce it at the anniversary party.

This is Hideo Kojima we're talking about. He originally wanted to call Sons of Liberty "Metal Gear Solid III" - with the three strokes represented by skyscrapes - because he wanted to deliberately confuse the audience.

 

[Darren.]

Looks like we've already got an older thread on this game that existed while the game was known as MGS5. https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=232624

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I know. But I'm under the distinct impression Solid Lifters wants that thread to survive and this one to be closed so that he can say he created the GROUND ZEROES thread, which is not a concept I'm fond of - I regularly edit over at Wikipedia, and one of their policies is that you don't own the content you edit in - and so I'm choosing to post in here for now.

If that makes me petty, then I'm petty.

 

[Solid Lifters]

I know. But I'm under the distinct impression Solid Lifters wants that thread to survive and this one to be closed so that he can say he created the GROUND ZEROES thread, which is not a concept I'm fond of - I regularly edit over at Wikipedia, and one of their policies is that you don't own the content you edit in - and so I'm choosing to post in here for now.

If that makes me petty, then I'm petty.

It's just fine with me if you want to keep open two MGS:GZ threads. It might get confusing to keep them both open which is why there's always been only one thread for each topic. But, it's your show.

 

[Samus]

This thread should be the one to remain open, it's the original Ground Zeroes thread and starts right at the announcement/reveal. The other was before but just starts with speculation and then was edited when it turned out to be different.

 

[sesselpupser]

I wonder if the two phantoms refers to The Patriots and... Something else. Or if it's just the beginnings of Solid and Liquid, before MGS maybe.

And having two threads with identical names is just unnecessary, can we merge them or rename the MGS5 one back? The numerical series has never skipped a number because of a non-numerical one so there will be an MGS5 eventually, it's just not this particular release. I don't count Peace Walker as a proper MGS, the story was too far from the main arc and I imagine this will be the same, same with Rising: Revengance.

 

[Darren.]

MGS Peace Walker wasn't away from the main arc. It was straight on it actually. It was set after MGS Portable Ops and paved the way for Metal Gear 1 with Big Boss founding "Outer Heaven"

 

[Ddrizle]

Kojima is writing, producing, directing and doing game design for Ground Zeroes.

After taking on more of a background role for Metal Gear Rising Revengeance, Hideo Kojima will be stepping up to the forefront again by writing, directing and doing the game design for Metal Gear Solid Ground Zeroes, as well as producing it. This was reported by Japanese gaming website Game Watch.

This means Metal Gear Solid Ground Zeroes will be ‘a Hideo Kojima game’, or in other words a game of which he is responsible for everything and not just the producing.

 

[sesselpupser]

MGS Peace Walker wasn't away from the main arc. It was straight on it actually. It was set after MGS Portable Ops and paved the way for Metal Gear 1 with Big Boss founding "Outer Heaven"

It fits with the canon but did very little to further it, all it did was explain the beginnings of Outer Heaven and The Patriots (in a little more detail than MGS3 did). None of the characters except Big Boss really mattered that much, I suppose Huey (being Otacon's... Dad? Or grandad) and Miller did but the Rebels, Zadornov, Paz, that French woman and Strangelove were only relevant to Peace Walker, and most of what you spend your time doing is just... Nothing, really. MSF's expansion and The Patriots are nothing to do with the plot, they just happen alongside it.

Not sure I'm articulating what I mean terribly well but the numerical series' actual gameplay has you (you as in your character through the medium of cutscenes) directly shaping the plot... You know?

 

[Spagetti69]

Hope we can put traffic cones on our heads or stand behind false trees. Lol.

 

[MGS2 Snake]

I really hope Hideo Kojima's story-telling ability has improved. Significantly.

Why would you say that, Prisonermonkeys?
Anyway, I believe this game will take place between Peace Walker
and Metal Gear. Maybe the late 1970’s or early 1980’s.

There is a chance I might be wrong, but hay, it’s just my opinion

 

[Samus]

I wouldn't say his storytelling is bad, it's just got more and more confusing with each game.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Why would you say that, Prisonermonkeys?

Because it's convoluted, confusing and contradictory. I'm pretty sure that about 80% of the content in some of the games could be trimmed down and streamlined to be something a little more refined. The remaining 20% is stuff you've got to work out for yourself. And I'm not enthusiastic about the idea of Ground Zeroes being in the middle of the overall story - it suggests that Kojima thinks there is something more that needs to be said, which just shows how flimsy the overall storytelling is. Which is unfortuante, because the basic storyline for the entire series is actually pretty good.

I think Kojima's problem is that he is very verbose and not particularly articulate. Which is to say that he takes too long explaining things, and some of his explanations are very clumsy. After all, there were large sections of Guns of the Patriots where the player didn't actually do anything but watch extended cut-scenes.

Funnily enough, the best analogy I can draw here is to William Shakespeare, specifically Romeo and Juliet. It's his most popular play, but it's not particularly well-written. As I tell my students, Romeo in particular tends to say twenty words when two will do. Kojima does the same thing, and some of his dialogue is very heavy-handed.

 

[Tommy_861]

Because it's convoluted, confusing and contradictory. I'm pretty sure that about 80% of the content in some of the games could be trimmed down and streamlined to be something a little more refined. The remaining 20% is stuff you've got to work out for yourself. And I'm not enthusiastic about the idea of Ground Zeroes being in the middle of the overall story - it suggests that Kojima thinks there is something more that needs to be said, which just shows how flimsy the overall storytelling is. Which is unfortuante, because the basic storyline for the entire series is actually pretty good.

I think Kojima's problem is that he is very verbose and not particularly articulate. Which is to say that he takes too long explaining things, and some of his explanations are very clumsy. After all, there were large sections of Guns of the Patriots where the player didn't actually do anything but watch extended cut-scenes.

Funnily enough, the best analogy I can draw here is to William Shakespeare, specifically Romeo and Juliet. It's his most popular play, but it's not particularly well-written. As I tell my students, Romeo in particular tends to say twenty words when two will do. Kojima does the same thing, and some of his dialogue is very heavy-handed.

I totally agree. Guns was such a great game I was begging for more but instead spent more time watching more and more convoluted cut scenes explaining things that could have been explained in about 1/4 the time.

The two hour one in the middle took the cake, I should not spend more time watching a cut scene than I did playing the game

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I think that Guns of the Patriots' story was really let down by Sons of Liberty's. The game suffered because Kojima broke the most fundamental law of storytelling: it is always better to show your audience something as it happens than it is to tell your audience about it after the fact. Liberty ended with Arsenal Gear crashing into New York City and the AI regulating the flow of information around the world being shut down. But some time between Liberty and Patriots, a whole new network of AIs went online and the war economy began. We never actually saw any of the events that triggered all of this - we were just dropped into the middle of it all and told that Liquid Ocelot was trying to take control of it all. And the plot twist that Ocelot had hypnotised himself to believe that he was Liquid and then forget that he had hypnotised himself sounded like a contrived explanation for something Kojima had dropped into Liberty without thinking too much about it, and then had to rush to explain.

 

[sesselpupser]

As much as I agree, I kind of like that it's taken me several playthroughs of MGS4 to 'get' certain plot points, resulting in several 'OHHHH!' moments. But yeah, I'm looking forward to the game that explains what happened between 2 and 4, I just hope it's not all down to nanomachines again.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

And therein lies the problem: there shouldn't be a need for a game to explain everything that happened between Liberty and Patriots - it should have already been explained and explored.

 

[Darren.]

And therein lies the problem: there shouldn't be a need for a game to explain everything that happened between Liberty and Patriots - it should have already been explained and explored.

It was explained in Guns of the Patriots ironically. Not a lot happened.

Spoiler

Snake sets out to save Sunny (Olga's daughter). Unfortunately for him his rapid aging begins to set in and he is forced to pull out of the operation. Instead, Raiden goes to the Patriots and finds Sunny. This is in exchange for Big Boss' body. Sunny was later adopted by Otacon and Snake, which explains why Sunny is on the NOMAD.

 

[sesselpupser]

And therein lies the problem: there shouldn't be a need for a game to explain everything that happened between Liberty and Patriots - it should have already been explained and explored.

I still don't disagree but it's pretty clear that Hideo Kojima doesn't care about conventions. Also, I'd rather play through the explanation rather than have it explained to me, so I'm more than happy for there to be a game to fill that gap. It's like he's treating the entire Metal Gear Solid franchise like it's a Quentin Tarantino film as well as a typical Japanese franchise; tell the story in a completely random, non-linear fashion whilst also milking it for all it's worth. Luckily that latter part hasn't impinged on the quality of the games to the usual extent (by which I mean compare, for example, the best Resident Evil games to the worst Resident Evil games then compare the best MGS to the worst MGS) so I'm kind of ok with how the story is being told, except for the somewhat jarring retcons... MGS4 was the worst for that but I can sort of forgive it as it was supposed to be his last MGS as director, and as much of a cop-out as I felt it was, the nanomachines thing wasn't entirely unrealistic.

Also, Darren, that explanation is all well and good as a brief overview but what did Snake do, then? There's a five year gap between MGS2 and 4. What was Ocelot/Liquid Ocelot/Liquid doing? What happened directly after RAY dived off of Arsenal Gear? Did Snake just sort of go 'hang on a sec, that thing swims pretty damn fast...' then wait to get picked up? What about the rise of the PMCs and the SOP system? It was just abruptly introduced with no real backstory in MGS4.

Hopefully this game is set either just after MGS or MGS2, but as all the evidence (eyepatch, MSF emblem, FN FNC) seems to point to it being Big Boss that doesn't seem likely. It could all be a big bait-and-switch, though, and it wouldn't be the first time. Whatever it is I can't wait to see some gameplay!

 

[prisonermonkeys]

That's not what I'm talking about.

At the end of Liberty, the Patriots have been dealt a massive blow. Arsenal Gear is exposed, and the heroes are aware of both their identities and their plan to filter and moderate the availability of information to guide human development.

At the start of Patriots, the Patriots have managed to bring several more AI cores online, Liquid Ocelot has established half a dozen Private Military Corporations and is considered so dangerous that he needs to be eliminated, and the world economy relies on a continual war in order to sustain itself.

Clearly, a lot has transpired between games. When Patriots starts, the world is totally different to what it was when Liberty ended, but there is no explanation as to how any of this came to be.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It's like he's treating the entire Metal Gear Solid franchise like it's a Quentin Tarantino film as well as a typical Japanese franchise; tell the story in a completely random, non-linear fashion whilst also milking it for all it's worth.

Tarantino's style is usually an artistic choice. Like, for example, PULP FICTION. That was deliberately built in a non-linear fashion so as to push the focus away from the plot and onto the characters.

Kojima is just telling bits and pieces of the story as they occur to him.

 

[sesselpupser]

Damn, just lost a nice long post explaining why I disagree with that! The summary was that basically, I believe Kojima has had a fairly decent idea of the overall plot since MGS2 and has started having a bit of fun with the order in which he's telling the story. I think he honestly believed MGS4 would be the last one he'd direct and then the rest would be spin-offs (something that hasn't been disproved yet as MGS5 has not been announced) and so tied the entire story off, but did so in such a way that there's room for prequels. To my mind it's a combination of uncertainty, business (why tie up loose ends with cutscenes and words when you could make games to sell?) and pretentiousness in the pursuit of being regarded as the auteur of the videogames industry, like the Hitchcock of his chosen medium. To be fair, he's done pretty well in that respect.

It's either that or he's deliberately writing near-trivial hooks into his games that can be explored in a stand-alone game. Examples:
- The Boss during World War II
- Big Boss between MSF and FOXHOUND
- Rat Patrol Team 01 between MGS and MGS4
- Solidus after MGS2, there's a bit of a leap between his condition there (dying, whilst fully intact) and his condition... After that (spoiler averted?)
- Raiden between MGS2 and 4: That's already being made
- Philanthropy.

The list probably goes on. None of these HAVE to be explored to further the plot of the series, but they easily could be.

 

[Samus]

Personally I just hope he keeps the gameplay a bit simpler and more traditional like MGS1 and MGS2. After that things just got more and more complicated, personally I never remembered most of the CQC moves in either 3 or 4.

 

[Darren.]

Raiden between MGS2 and 4: That's already being made.

Kojima Productions scrapped that plot after the development shifted to Platinum Games. Its now set after GOTP. 👍 So a game involving Raiden between MGS2 and 4, a game where we see Jack split up from Rose, could well be possible.

 

[sesselpupser]

Kojima Productions scrapped that plot after the development shifted to Platinum Games. Its now set after GOTP. 👍 So a game involving Raiden between MGS2 and 4, a game where we see Jack split up from Rose, could well be possible.

Oh right, I had no idea they'd changed it, to be honest I've lost interest since the Platinum Games trailer. I much preferred how it looked in the first trailer (with the watermelon, I think?) but that's probably because I was still expecting some stealth at the time.


Aaaanyway, back to Ground Zeroes: Hideo Kojima is presenting GZ at PAX, 1pm Pacific time I believe.

 

[dice1998]

No it's not.

Not trying to start an arguement or anything but:

If I position myself as him and someone takes a picture of me, wouldn't the person be photographing the left side of my face?



Here's to hoping that ground zero takes place in that quite large gap between 2 and 4 👍 .


**edit** I'm bored at work and decided to to light skimming through the metal gear wiki:

The term "ground zero" describes the point on the Earth's surface closest to a detonation. The term has often been associated with nuclear explosions and other large bombs, but is also used in relation to earthquakes, epidemics and other disasters to mark the point of the most severe damage or destruction.

This, if I could relate it to MGS somehow, could mean a remake of Metal Gear/Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake (ground zero for all metal gear games to follow)?

 

[Samus]

Yes but you don't wear an eye patch like that, the string always starts through the hair of the opposite side you're wearing it. If it was over his left eye the string on the other side would run over his nose! It's easiest to see on the other picture:

Patch string runs through the hair on the left side of his face as it does in that image but the patch is on the right eye, the string pops out under his right ear.

 

[dice1998]

Ah, that makes much more sense to me now

Apologies are in order and such.

 

[wicken]

pax-fifteen-minutes-of-metal-gear-solid-ground-zeroes-gameplay
Get ready to be blown away!

 

[Samus]

Ah, that makes much more sense to me now

Apologies are in order and such.

No worries, it's an easy mistake to make. Besides, there are more important things to talk about...

Get ready to be blown away

Like this. Can't wait to see this. He looks greyer in that picture. Hmm...