MH17 Crash In Ukraine. Known info in OP.

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cmbeal317
I didn't know they shot down another aircraft today, though the videos that were linked to in the FB post were clearly linked to MH17.
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Yeah whats this about a second plane crashing?
 
My thoughts go out to all those onboard and their friends and families.
 
And none of the other media are reporting anything about that AH-26.

Mysterious...
 
cmbeal317
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I didn't know they shot down another aircraft today, though the videos that were linked to in the FB post were clearly linked to MH17.
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Ah, I've seen that. It's VK, the Russian social network.
The militia reports about an An-26 shot in the vicinity of Torez, and the last sentence says: "There's also some info about second plane shot down, some kind of Su."

But, how such a big aircraft like 777 could be confused for a small Sukhoi military jet... Maybe it looked small because of the altitude? :confused:
 
Rage Racer
Ah, I've seen that. It's VK, the Russian social network.
The militia reports about an An-26 shot in the vicinity of Torez, and the last sentence says: "There's also some info about second plane shot down, some kind of Su."

But, how such a big aircraft like 777 could be confused for a small Sukhoi military jet... Maybe it looked small because of the altitude? :confused:
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So it is safe to say that they screwed up big time and shot down MH17 instead of the AN-26?
 
Rage Racer
Ah, I've seen that. It's VK, the Russian social network.
The militia reports about an An-26 shot in the vicinity of Torez, and the last sentence says: "There's also some info about second plane shot down, some kind of Su."

But, how such a big aircraft like 777 could be confused for a small Sukhoi military jet... Maybe it looked small because of the altitude? :confused:
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I don't really know a whole lot about radar technology, but I'm sure there would be a difference on the radar screen between a small and large aircraft. More likely they saw the aircraft on radar and fired without confirming it was of military origin. They were talking on CNN about a type of radar(which I'm not sure if it would be the same as being used in this case) that can differentiate between friend and foe. Unfortunately, it can't tell civilian and commercial aircraft from military aircraft. I have a feeling that it was a case of mistaken identity.
 
Dennisch
So it is safe to say that they screwed up big time and shot down MH17 instead of the AN-26?
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cmbeal317
I don't really know a whole lot about radar technology, but I'm sure there would be a difference on the radar screen between a small and large aircraft. More likely they saw the aircraft on radar and fired without confirming it was of military origin. They were talking on CNN about a type of radar(which I'm not sure if it would be the same as being used in this case) that can differentiate between friend and foe. Unfortunately, it can't tell civilian and commercial aircraft from military aircraft. I have a feeling that it was a case of mistaken identity.
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Firstly the altitude would be a "tell", that's a known air corridor which any air-radar operator would be aware of as part of their general subject/area knowledge.

If this is a missile strike (and the evidence is pointing to that despite my strong early doubts) then I'm sure it's a case of mistaken identity. The question is, therefore, what was the plane mistaken for? It would have to be a large transport jet/turboprop at that size and altitude.

An Su-25 Frogfoot can't reach that altitude, from memory that wing/engine combo gives it a max of about 26/27 thousand feet in ideal conditions, the service ceiling is probably 2000 feet lower. There's no way any intelligent radar operator mistook a 777 at 30k+ for a Frogfoot.

The story depends on us believing that amateurs stole and operated the system. That could make us think that such mistakes could be made by untrained operators... but one wonders if an untrained operator could even find a target, let alone authorise launch.
 
CNN has just read off a partial list of nationalities of the victims of MH17, 47 victims have not had there nationalities released and the U.S. was not on the list of victims whose nationalities have have been released. I'll try and find the rest as they read it very quickly.


Edit: http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/07/18/MH17-unofficial-nationality-list/

This article is saying 58 passengers have not had nationalities stated yet.:confused:
 
There were 23 Americans reported on the flight.
 
cmbeal317
I don't really know a whole lot about radar technology, but I'm sure there would be a difference on the radar screen between a small and large aircraft. More likely they saw the aircraft on radar and fired without confirming it was of military origin. They were talking on CNN about a type of radar(which I'm not sure if it would be the same as being used in this case) that can differentiate between friend and foe. Unfortunately, it can't tell civilian and commercial aircraft from military aircraft. I have a feeling that it was a case of mistaken identity.
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According to Boeing, the 777 has a friend/foe warning system, it should show up in the launching station.
So... like I said before, if they shot it down by accident, they have to be complete idiots who don't know how to operate a Buk, which makes it much more likely that the seperatists did it.
 
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Dennisch
So it is safe to say that they screwed up big time and shot down MH17 instead of the AN-26?
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No, I mean they could have shot two planes, the An-26 (confirmed) and "something kinda sorta like a Su". Guess what could that be.

cmbeal317
I don't really know a whole lot about radar technology, but I'm sure there would be a difference on the radar screen between a small and large aircraft. More likely they saw the aircraft on radar and fired without confirming it was of military origin. They were talking on CNN about a type of radar(which I'm not sure if it would be the same as being used in this case) that can differentiate between friend and foe. Unfortunately, it can't tell civilian and commercial aircraft from military aircraft. I have a feeling that it was a case of mistaken identity.
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The Boeing did not have a "friend-or-foe" responder, as far as I know.
I'm not yet aware how does the Buk's radar work, but I'll try to learn tomorrow. I'm going to sleep now. :)
 
Rage Racer
No, I mean they could have shot two planes, the An-26 (confirmed) and "something kinda sorta like a Su". Guess what could that be.
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Can you confirm that AN-26 was shot down today and not the one that was shot down Monday? Because no other press agencies are reporting another plane crash, other than the Russian one you provided.

Also, Putin blames Kiev. If Kiev had stopped fighting this plane would not have been shot down.
Stay classy, Vlad. 👍
 
Another hypothesis: The guys who did it knew what they were doing and shot it down on purpose, but maybe without higher "authorities" knowing. Which could've been, again, from all sides involved.
 
grog
Yeah but that was on Monday wasn't it?
That article is confusing
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No, it's today. It's European date format - 17.07.2014 - day.month.year
 
G.T.Ace
According to Boeing, the 777 has a friend/foe warning system, it should show up in the launching station.
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???

Not of the military type, for sure. It would have transmitted a transponder code either from the standard set or directed by ATC... but the problem is that Beech (Buk) doesn't pick that up.

And missiles definitely don't. You're heat? You're meat.
 
TenEightyOne
???

Not of the military type, for sure. It would have transmitted a transponder code either from the standard set or directed by ATC... but the problem is that Beech (Buk) doesn't pick that up.

And missiles definitely don't. You're heat? You're meat.
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The reports I heard today said a Buk would've picked it up.
 
Rage Racer
No, it's today. It's European date format - 17.07.2014 - day.month.year
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Its not the day/month/year format thats throwing me off its the fact that there was a military transporter which crashed monday. plus the article has this within it:

"On Monday, the Ukrainian security officials reported that in the Luhansk region lost communication with the plane An-26, later it became known that he was shot down militias. In the plane were eight people.Four crew members were rescued and two others were detained by militias, the fate of two was unknown, were searched."
 
Utterly shocking news to wake up to, almost worse than MH370 as it appears malicious.

I hope the neanderthalic scum that shot it down are found and hanged.
 
Mike Rotch
Utterly shocking news to wake up to, almost worse than MH370 as it appears malicious.

I hope the neanderthalic scum that shot it down are found and hanged.
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You just woke up? Get reading! ;)

Bizarre because of the obvious coincidences, but in both cases seemingly human intervention ended the flights. Awful situation :(

@G.T.Ace , I don't know for sure, @rageracer1988 is the expert on these systems ;). The "expert" I was listening to earlier on Beeb4 said that the BUK system doesn't pick up civilian transponder codes, but I don't know for sure.

If it can pick up transponder codes then yeah, there's a whole new issue providing that the missile hit the target that the operator was actually looking at.
 
Dennisch
That's the picture.



And it's real. I checked the guys facebook. Pretty grim.
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i am sure it was just a joke because of mh370

whats more eery is that its another malaysian airlines plane
 
Dennisch
Can you confirm that AN-26 was shot down today and not the one that was shot down Monday? Because no other press agencies are reporting another plane crash, other than the Russian one you provided.
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Some vids from Torez:
Rage Racer

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However, it's not clear what's burning there, but you can see a spoil tip on the second video. The post from militia's VK page says that the An fell behind a spoil tip. As you see on the second vid.

Edit: sorry, not see, but hear. In the beginning, a civilian says: "there! Behind the spoil tip!"
 
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Both those videos are shown around the world as the MH17 crash.

The worlds press confirms the AN-26 on monday, MH17 today and possibly a fighter jet today.
And the world confirms that MH17 is shot down near Torez, the place where the so called AN-26 was shot down today.


f_399
i am sure it was just a joke because of mh370

whats more eery is that its another malaysian airlines plane
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That's pretty clear. If this crash didn't happen it was a funny joke, now it is just sad and grim.
 
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The MH17 was clearly shot down by a buk. The pictures of the wreckage are horrifying. Chunks of metal and bodies everywhere.
 
grog
Its not the day/month/year format thats throwing me off its the fact that there was a military transporter which crashed monday. plus the article has this within it:

"On Monday, the Ukrainian security officials reported that in the Luhansk region lost communication with the plane An-26, later it became known that he was shot down militias. In the plane were eight people.Four crew members were rescued and two others were detained by militias, the fate of two was unknown, were searched."
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Yep, I heard about another An lost on Monday with two crew members captured by the militants. But it was in Lughansk area, and I'm talking about another one shot in Torez.
 
Rage Racer
Yep, I heard about another An lost on Monday with two crew members captured by the militants. But it was in Lughansk area, and I'm talking about another one shot in Torez.
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There are no reports of that An26 shot down today. In the Torez area lies the Boeing. No other aircraft. There are plenty of reporters there and no one reports of a second plane.

The DPR clearly screwed up by stating that it shot down a AN instead of the Boeing, and that is probably why they removed the news as soon as they could.
 
The Russians posted on twitter saying they had taken down a plane around the same time MH17 was brought down.
They rapidly deleted all tweets about the buk missile launcher they had.
 
SniperRed3
The Russians posted on twitter saying they had taken down a plane around the same time MH17 was brought down.
They rapidly deleted all tweets about the buk missile launcher they had.
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And where's that "other" plane?
 
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