MH17 Crash In Ukraine. Known info in OP.

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Touring Mars
@Slash Don't worry about it - there is a bit of a gray area when it comes to graphic content with journalistic merit - in such cases you could post a link to the image with an appropriate warning of graphic content rather than posting the image itself, but people who don't want to view such material should feel that these pages are safe viewing. For the record, it is not censoring - it's simply what the owner of the site has asked us to abide by.
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That's what I should have done, just posted the links instead of the full image with a warning. They were off a Facebook feed so there was no real article with it. I understand where you are coming from though.
 
This is a very sad day, one that never should have happened, nearly 300 people gone just like that. I find it ironic that this tragedy shares the same date as TWA Flight 800.
 
Exorcet
It doesn't work that way. Missiles are more deadly with speed, they're designed specifically for supersonic flight and the Buk is capable against maneuvering aircraft like fighters. Max aircraft g is 12-15 if you don't care about keeping the plane in useable condition ever again. Missiles can pull 20+. You should not turn into a missile either. It will simply out turn you. Missile defeat is achieved by bleeding it of energy or causing guidance to fail.
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It's a game of two halves. A missile needs to get itself into "the zone" very quickly. Once it's in the target area it needs to be manouverable... think of driving a car, if you and another car were in a car park (parking lot?) and you were competing to see who could drive up the back of the other... would you win by always being fastest or by slowing down and turning into your opponent's trajectory?

@DDastardly00 , I hadn't realised that, yet another weird coincidence it seems :(
 
TenEightyOne
It's a game of two halves. A missile needs to get itself into "the zone" very quickly. Once it's in the target area it needs to be manouverable... think of driving a car, if you and another car were in a car park (parking lot?) and you were competing to see who could drive up the back of the other... would you win by always being fastest or by slowing down and turning into your opponent's trajectory?
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Not to drag this too far off, but the car/car analogy doesn't work because cars can go as fast as cars and turn as well as cars. Missiles out run planes and out turn them.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YMSfg26YSQ&t=30
 
It's a 1500lbs rocket with a 160lbs warhead travelling at 2700MPH. If you see it you are to late.
 
Exorcet
Not to drag this too far off, but the car/car analogy doesn't work because cars can go as fast as cars and turn as well as cars. Missiles out run planes and out turn them.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YMSfg26YSQ&t=30
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Haha, fair do's, but in the air it IS different :) A fighter that can temporarily hold 8g (very temporarily) can out-turn a fast missile, a slower missile won't overshoot. That's what I was trying to say.

Baseline; I don't believe the upward smoke trail from the missile would show as closely to the downward smoke trail of the "victim". But that video's great, although it actually shows an AAM at same-altitude against a Phantom that's in a constant turn...
 
Dennisch
A phonecall has been intercepted between Igor Bezler, a commander from the DPR, and Vasili Geranin, a Russian intelligence officer about the crash.

US intelligence have now stated that they have heat signatures of a missile near the airplane. They are now investigating where the launch point was.
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that's important information
 
most modern missiles don't even need to make contact , just needs to get in the blast zone the pressure waves will tear wings off resulting in fuel tanks cracking that creates the big explosions. No airliner will out manoeuvre them type of projectiles not like there RPGs
 
Dennisch
It's a 1500lbs rocket with a 160lbs warhead travelling at 2700MPH. If you see it you are to late.
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CNN is saying that if the Buk was fired from Russia at its closest point to the plane (31 miles), the missile would have been to the airplane in about 40 seconds. Even though nobody knows where it was shot from, it frankly wouldn't have mattered because of what you said- they would have never saw it coming.
 
Let's just hope that it didn't came from Russia. That would make it all a lot more difficult and complicated.
 
AnthonyD1993
CNN is saying that if the Buk was fired from Russia at its closest point to the plane (31 miles), the missile would have been to the airplane in about 40 seconds. Even though nobody knows where it was shot from, it frankly wouldn't have mattered because of what you said- they would have never saw it coming.
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CNN need to go to school then. Missile range is 32km, not 32miles, and remember that it has to go from ground-origin to 30+ thousand feet.
 
apparently Putin told Obama that it happened whilst on the phone over unrelated matters,

that true?
 
TenEightyOne
It's a game of two halves. A missile needs to get itself into "the zone" very quickly. Once it's in the target area it needs to be manouverable... think of driving a car, if you and another car were in a car park (parking lot?) and you were competing to see who could drive up the back of the other... would you win by always being fastest or by slowing down and turning into your opponent's trajectory?

@DDastardly00 , I hadn't realised that, yet another weird coincidence it seems :(
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I just realized it too, USA today is reporting it. I bet they were probably going to run a story on it because it was the 15 year anniversary of the worst air accident in the United States, then this happened.
 
Buk has various version and modifications. 30 miles sounds well within capability. SA-10 is capable of 50 miles. S-400 and SA-5 can exceed 100 miles.

IN 2001 Ukraine shot down an airliner 150 miles away with a SA-5.
 
If the Ukrainian foreign ministry is to be believed, then the Russian officers whose phone conversation was intercepted by Ukrainian authorities were discussing the accident just 5 minutes after the plane disappeared from air traffic control. The plane vanished from radar at 2.15 pm GMT - or 4.15 pm local time in Ukraine. The Ukrainian foreign ministry claim to have intercepted a call between two Russian GRU officers at 4.20 pm.

TDZdave
apparently Putin told Obama that it happened whilst on the phone over unrelated matters,

that true?
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Almost - they had a pre-arranged phone call, and Putin apparently learned of the incident minutes before the call.

edit: The victims included 154 Dutch, 27 Australian, 23 Malaysian, 11 Indonesian, 6 British, 4 German, 4 Belgian, 3 Phillipino and 1 Canadian... the rest have not been confirmed yet.
 
Touring Mars
If the Ukrainian foreign ministry is to be believed, then the Russian officers whose phone conversation was intercepted by Ukrainian authorities were discussing the accident just 5 minutes after the plane disappeared from air traffic control. The plane vanished from radar at 2.15 pm GMT - or 4.15 pm local time in Ukraine. The Ukrainian foreign ministry claim to have intercepted a call between two Russian GRU officers at 4.20 pm.
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Belgian news says the seperatist commander who supposedly ordered the attack was on the phone with a russian colonel just after it happened, and when the colonel asked to verify if there were weapons found amongst the wreckage, he replied no only civilian items like clothes luggage and toilet paper.
 
cmbeal317
I'm convinced that the separatists are responsible, based on the fact that they claimed responsibility on Facebook for shooting down what they though was a cargo plane(which was later deleted).
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They really had taken down an An-26: http://rian.com.ua/incidents/20140717/354994277.html (Ukrainian source, but you can see pics). Two survived crew members are captured by DPR. Besides, it was shot above Torez, but the Boeing was shot above Shakhtyorsk - different town.
BTW, do you have a screenshot of the deleted post from the DPR Facebook page?

Reading this article from Foxtrot Alpha, the launcher and missile may not have even come from Russia as some we're stolen from a Ukrainian AA defense base.
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I'm aware of that.
 
Exorcet
Buk has various version and modifications. 30 miles sounds well within capability. SA-10 is capable of 50 miles. S-400 and SA-5 can exceed 100 miles.

IN 2001 Ukraine shot down an airliner 150 miles away with a SA-5.
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These are linear so don't take account of altitude in firing distance.. AND they're on a wiki (so not a primary source)... but the ranges here don't compute with that.

If I wasn't drunk I'd do the true distance equation for a target at 32000feet at 32 miles away, but it's outside the range of the Beech-compatible missiles specced here.
 
All I can say is this is sad and sickening. I've read all 7 pages thus far but have yet to read any articles. I'll stay informed about this... If there is a good side to this, at least the families know what has happened, instead of those involved with MH370. But sad nonetheless.
It sounds like there's been pretty good leads come out the past hour. Hopefully the full story will be known by tonight.
 
Rage Racer
They really had taken down an An-26: http://rian.com.ua/incidents/20140717/354994277.html (Ukrainian source, but you can see pics). Two survived crew members are captured by DPR. Besides, it was shot above Torez, but the Boeing was shot above Shakhtyorsk - different town.
BTW, do you have a screenshot of the deleted post from the DPR Facebook page?


I'm aware of that.
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I didn't know they shot down another aircraft today, though the videos that were linked to in the FB post were clearly linked to MH17.
 
Malaysian Airlines is becoming the Carnival cruises of air travel...
 
Well there was 3 people who changed airlines at the last minute, as a result they have had a lucky escape.

Here they are only good news to come out of this tragedy
image.jpg
 
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TenEightyOne
These are linear so don't take account of altitude in firing distance.. AND they're on a wiki (so not a primary source)... but the ranges here don't compute with that.
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Increased altitude tends to increase range. You reduce air density. A Buk will never go 30 miles fired from 0 sea level to sea level. 30 miles from sea level to 30000 feet with the target closing at 500 knots is realistic for a modern SAM, but it is debatable if a Buk could go that far. I'm not referencing Wiki (I'm going with what I know/remember already) and the kind of refs wiki would use would have to define max range if you wanted to be absolutely sure the number was applicable, which is a variable definition. Thing is an airliner is a candidate for using the very highest definitions of max range because it's likely a non maneuvering target. The missile could be limping toward it and still make the strike.

If I wasn't drunk I'd do the true distance equation for a target at 32000feet at 32 miles away, but it's outside the range of the Beech-compatible missiles specced here.
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We don't know what the definition of max range is for those measurements. It might seem silly, but a published max range doesn't necessarily correlate to how far the missile can get from the launcher in absolute terms.
 

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