Microsoft Doesn't See Sony's PS5 as Competition for the Xbox

Discussion in 'Console & PC Gaming' started by GTPNewsWire, Feb 6, 2020.

  1. alp

    alp

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    “When you talk about Nintendo and Sony, we have a ton of respect for them, but we see Amazon and Google as the main competitors going forward. That’s not to disrespect Nintendo and Sony, but the traditional gaming companies are somewhat out of position. I guess they could try to re-create Azure, but we’ve invested tens of billions of dollars in cloud over the years.”

    This was enough for me to make my comment. Worldwide broadband access has a long way to go before cloud gaming becomes mainstream and I think Sony is aware this too. This is similar to why traditional car manufacturers are not ditching fossil fuel cars yet. It's not that they are lacking vision. EV car batteries are still too heavy to be mainstream.
     
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  2. IngRobNy

    IngRobNy

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    ="alp, post: 13009355, member: 297856"]EV car batteries are still too heavy to be mainstream.[/QUOTE]

    Not only that, but many countries power grid isn't capable to have most of the cars hooked up for recharging, I don't think my country's power grid can handle that, just yet (ca 5 mill people here and in 2018 ca 2.8 personal transport cars, in lack of better words not included transport vehicles) (I'm pretty sure it can't handle that, not even starting to talk about very few public charging stations).

    Different personal vehicles types here in Norway, numbers from 2018:
    Uten navn.png
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
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  3. rhalgr

    rhalgr

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    You didn't bold the crucial part. Spencer is talking about MS investing tens of billions into cloud infrastructure over the years and Sony/Nintendo being out of position, because they haven't done it.

    Having an huge & global infrastructure is crucial imo. Sony and Nintendo can't do/haven't done it. They need Amazon, Google or Microsoft. That's not being delusional. It's a fact.

    His comments were not about cloud gaming being able to generate billions on revenue or replacing consoles at all like some in here seem to believe.
     
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  4. ShakesMcQueen

    ShakesMcQueen

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    Then why did Sony launch a cloud streaming service first? Haha. Cloud doesn't have to rely on broadband. It could be the proliferation of technologies like 5G that eventually bring cloud gaming to countries with less broadband coverage.

    Exactly.

    I've seen a lot of people lose it about these quotes, as though Spencer was trying to basically change the rules so he didn't need to "admit defeat" or something, which is just idiotic. Spencer has gone on record at length, about the myriad mistakes Xbox made this generation, and acknowledged that they are not the market leader for consoles right now. He spent hundreds of millions on new studios, specifically in response to a shortcoming they had versus Sony. He's releasing the Xbox SX, specifically to compete with the PS5. He's openly said that he still thinks the "cloud future" isn't here yet, and won't be for years.

    These quotes are about the future of gaming, where platforms and formats dissolve away as the "real" battlefield. Microsoft, Amazon, and Google are going to overwhelmingly be the people who "own the wires" of the cloud gaming future, so to speak. Conversely, companies like Sony and Nintendo are going to become their customers, as they haven't made the same investment in building out datacentres and stuff for the future. You can already see this in that MOU Sony agreed to with Microsoft, about bringing Sony onto Azure in the future. Sony know they aren't positioned to be able to do these things themselves.

    When local hardware eventually goes away, companies like Sony are essentially going to become game publishers. And in that version of the future, Google and Amazon become Microsoft's "real" competitors.

    This is just a continuation of what Microsoft are already doing, with their de-emphasis on the console hardware as the centrepiece of the ecosystem, in favour of decentralizing and expanding what the "Xbox Ecosystem" is - it's PC, it's mobile, it's Xbox consoles, it's streaming, and it's even some games here and there on competing consoles. While they'd certainly like to win the "console war" by selling more hardware, it's ultimately not that material to their future plans.

    I've seen a lot of responses online bringing up the seeming failure of Stadia to show how preposterous Spencer's comments are, but that also misses the point. Stadia could fold tomorrow, and Google would still be Microsoft's competitor for the "cloud gaming" future, because they have that massive, lucrative cloud infrastructure that the "winning" services are going to need to become clients of to deliver it. That's going to make Google more money than something like Stadia ever will.

    Literally the only fault I can find in Spencer's wording, is that he makes it sound a bit like this shift in competition is already complete, when it's still several years away, and to some extent still speculative about the future of gaming. However, that could also easily be the fault of "protocol" not properly contextualizing his comments in the article.

    People are overreacting to his comments, because they are only looking at cloud "competition" as essentially xCloud vs. Stadia vs. PS Now vs. whatever Amazon announces. That fundamentally fails to understand what he's actually talking about, which is way bigger than a few consumer-facing subscription services battling it out. Microsoft is hoping to eventually own the entire battlefield those services are standing on.
     
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  5. rhalgr

    rhalgr

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    Sums it up pretty well and should open the eyes of those, which think Amazon isn't in gaming yet and Google has only stadia. Amazon is in gaming for years and i am not talking about their gaming studio... I am talking about one of the biggest gaming services PSN. Same for google, because they provide the Nintendo Network.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
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  6. Wolfe

    Wolfe Premium

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    If there's any tech to adequately minimize ping/latency to make it suitable for all games, for all players, in all contexts, it would have to be some kind of exotic solution we've hardly begun to develop yet. Like, conquering quantum entanglement.

    An intriguing enough thought for sure, but a cloud service as currently envisioned would still require an active connection for any gaming to take place, and would still hold control over your games library on a level beyond digital distribution (much less my collection of complete-at-launch physical Switch games). Very "anti-nerd" for the sort of nerds like me who are somewhat obsessive about having a certain amount of control over our stuff, from gaming to driving a manual 14-year-old car. ;)

    See, this is what I was talking about. :)

    Sorry, cloud gaming is one of the stupidest ideas I've heard out of this industry in my life, and I've gathered that I'm not alone (for once :lol: ). You can pry dedicated hardware from our cold, dead hands. I wouldn't bet against there being a large and loyal market of gamers who either want nothing to do with cloud gaming, or will double-dip with its gimmicks while continuing to enjoy local hardware. How could you look around this forum right here, with rigs and wheels and triple screens and esports (and protests over GT Sport's online requirements!), and believe otherwise?

    Gaming is not like casual consumption of music or movies/TV. It's closer to reading, and ebooks haven't killed printing, even with Amazon leading the way. If cloud gaming takes off at all, it is only going to sift out the "readers" from the "bookworms" of our hobby. There are still music nerds buying vinyls, and movie buffs with home theaters stocked with DVDs, too.

    Part of what I'm saying is for anyone reading who agrees with me that cloud gaming is a terrible idea: I don't think there's anything to worry about (@IngRobNy). :cheers:
     
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  7. ShakesMcQueen

    ShakesMcQueen

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    I remember when people said that about physical disc copies of games (and movies, and music CDs), less than a decade ago. Now digital sales make up the overwhelming majority of all game sales on console, and are poised to hit 90+% within the next year or two.

    None of those things have anything to do with whether the CPU/GPU are local or not. Nor does a predominantly cloud-based gaming future preclude the continued existence of local hardware options like a PC, or a PC-like box designed for a living room.

    There sure are - and they are an infinitesimally small portion of both industries, compared to the likes of digital downloads and streaming alternatives. Not where the real money is.

    There's nothing terrible about the idea itself at all, as long as the infrastructure exists to deliver it optimally. Even Phil Spencer doesn't think that's quite the case yet, and he's the guy whose comments are being argued over.
     
  8. rhalgr

    rhalgr

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    It's not a terrible idea from an business pov, since some countries don't have an huge console market and Sony, Microsoft, Nvidia, Google, ... are chasing cloud gaming to reach significantly more people.

    I think Nintendo will have an cloud gaming service in the future, too. Personally i will always prefer consoles. But fact of the matter is companies are interested in growth and reaching "everyone".

    The console market for gens now is somewhere between 150-300 million, if we take the sales of all consoles per gen and make the false assumption that nobody owns multiple consoles. Enough for consoles to stay for years to come imo... Not enough for companies looking to expand gaming significantly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
  9. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    I think the biggest mistakes console makers are doing is first off trying to dictate through licensing and chip insertion, control over the peripherals or controllers that its customers are limited to purchase to use on the platform.
    I know I just ordered a new Hotas joystick for use on flight games on the PC and since I own a PS I looked to see what would be compatible with the PS as well and it seems that both Playstation and Xbox both only have one super bottom end joystick that is compatible to use with their systems. I was in the market for a mid level control system not a bottom end so my purchase will not work with the console.

    So with this policy they have excluded me as a possible customer for any future flight or space flying games that may be released on the console. In my opinion they are eliminating potential customers to buy their consoles and the games that players may prefer using different controllers.

    Another place I think they hurt themselves is allowing the PC market to be exclusive for the enthusiast and 3rd party modders while keeping the consoles locked down with no aftermarket additions. Example go look at Project Cars on the PC and the amount of mods and tracks and current active players as compared to the same title on console and it is a prime example of how a community can keep an older title relevant.
    There is no comparison between the console version and PC version as a result.

    As the price of consoles continue to get higher, games are released half finished and with bugs at launch and constantly require updating both to get a reasonable amount of content and also to fix the games problems the main advantage the consoles used to enjoy being plug and play and fully complete polished game titles at release is being eliminated.

    Also with fewer games being platform exclusives and those exclusives have a lot more competition these days the console makers are very possibly to start having customers question as to why to spend their money on the limitations imposed by the console makers instead of just buying a much more versatile PC with many more available options.

    There is no doubt the gaming market is changing, even companies like Steam which make having many of your games in one place on the PC has an influence. No platform is the holy grail but the PC platform does seem to be catering more to what the CUSTOMER ACTUALLY WANTS both in the games and the accessories they want to use to play them. I currently have reached a position that I find it not as likely I will make the future purchase a PS5 than where I stood say a year ago.
     
  10. alp

    alp

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    Mobile data is very expensive compared to other ways of getting internet access. 5G is also rolling out very slowly (mostly due to health concerns regarding increased no of stations) and in other countries due to lack of infrastructure (i.e. fiber; which means not so broadband internet as well). Fiber rollout is also very slow apart from countries like New Zealand which have very quantitative agendas to increase fiber coverage.

    To cut my long story short, I believe cloud gaming needs more time just the way Sony waited 4K TV household penetration to exceed a certain value before thinking about launching the PS5.
     
  11. Wolfe

    Wolfe Premium

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    Motte and bailey. The implications of how you acquire and store the software read by your local hardware are not like the implications of cloud gaming.

    No one on that end of this hobby has any attachment to or specific need for the gaming PC they built, the homegrown mods they use, their integrated full-motion rig, dependable hardware for esports purposes, anything like that...? And streaming the whole game over the internet has nothing to do with complaints about GT Sport's online integration...? Do you see my point?

    A PC-like box designed for a living room...maybe in sleek plastic? With a marketable name like, "Playstation" or "Nintendo New Famicom XL"?

    The crowd I'm talking about is still not interested in cloud gaming's hostage situation with access to your games, and on the latency, I'm just telling you the truth: it is literally impossible, according to science we understand today, for cloud gaming to ever bring the input latency down an ideal local setup.

    The Wii U Gamepad has less than three feet of wi-fi video streaming to do -- about identical in nature to only the last leg cloud gaming has to cover from my internet router to my screen -- and I was still more comfortable playing certain games on the big screen instead of looking at the Gamepad. What else can I tell you? I expect better. And I'm not even half as anal about it as a hardcore frame-counting fighting game fan. :lol: No amount of infrastructure can fix cloud gaming for those guys.

    At best, this is going to play out pretty much like mobile gaming. That's plenty of money, right? But not "the future of gaming" as mobile gaming was claimed by some to be.
     
  12. ShakesMcQueen

    ShakesMcQueen

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    Right now it is, yes. Ten years from now? Who knows. Keep in mind that with the Series X, Microsoft themselves are banking on a streaming future not being here, or at least not being dominant, for at least another 7 years. And Spencer himself has said he could easily see another generation of hardware after that, and they will likely plan with that assumption unless it becomes clear that it won't be necessary.

    I don't disagree. Neither does Phil Spencer. He's talking about the future, and who will be best positioned to take full advantage when "cloud gaming" finally arrives in force - he thinks it's Microsoft, Google, and Amazon. And I agree with him, because they are the three companies that have invested the tens of billions of dollars necessary to build out a truly global datacentre infrastructure.
     
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  13. rhalgr

    rhalgr

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    I think most people couldn't care less about pc gaming and will continue buying consoles. Sure, consoles need patches just like pc and more exklusive will release on pc. MS is already all in on this and Sony seems to be interested in porting some games, aswell.

    But looking at the most successful games on console charts show these are third party games anyway. Looking at publisher reports reveals console copies usually sell more than the superior pc version. I don't see this changing and consoles should be fine next gen.
     
  14. GT6mebe

    GT6mebe

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    Nice spin. Unfortunately everything you said was wrong.

    I said install base does not affect certain games, if said game has a long tail such as GT. Said tail is also dependent on the install base as it grows per year.

    XB's collapse of install base has directly led to the collapse of its biggest IPs: Halo and Gears.

    You seem to be struggling with the fact that FH is nowhere near big enough to compensate for the loss of Halo and Gears :lol:

    So yea XB first party as a whole is massively down.

    This has nothing to with the Xbox gaming business.

    Xbox gaming revenue does not include revenue MS gets for hosting third party content. Thats included in MS's cloud business.

    Neither Sony or Nintendo will have trouble finding said cloud services from third parties either.

    It's a lame attempt at diversion, because everyone knows Xbox is getting dominated in the gaming industry at the moment.
     
  15. ShakesMcQueen

    ShakesMcQueen

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    Ahh console fanboys, my favourite.

    Halo 4 on the Xbox 360 made $300 million it's first week. Halo 5 on the Xbox One made $400 million it's first week. The Halo Master Chief Collection on PC was the top selling game on Steam for several weeks around it's release date, and was the most "wishlisted" game on Steam for months before that. But please, do go on.

    Is Halo as big as it was? Nope. Halo 3 was probably the peak of that particular mountain. But it has far from "collapsed". And Halo Infinite is rumoured to have the largest overall budget in videogame history - between $400-500 million dollars.

    Gears 4 and 5 are harder to judge, because Gears 5 came out in the Game Pass-era for Microsoft, meaning you didn't need to buy the game at retail to play it. It also means they don't release sales figures any more - just "player" numbers. Gears 5 had over three million players it's first week.

    I don't know what a game "compensating" for other games even means. Forza Horizon 4 could have sold 50 million copies, and it wouldn't "compensate" for anything. Consoles need a reasonably steady drip of high-quality games, and no one game, no matter how good it is, is going to prop up a console for a generation - unless it's literally a Fortnite-style phenomenon.

    Sony have already "found" their cloud service provider for the future, and it appears to be... Microsoft. Meaning in addition to Game Pass, xCloud, and whatever other Microsoft-owned services are hosted on Azure, they are also going to be getting paid by Sony to host theirs.

    Nintendo won't bother acknowledging the cloud until about 2072, much like they still don't have a competent online multiplayer service suite in 2020.

    No, this is a lame attempt at revisionist history. Phil Spencer has literally given interviews to outlets like Gamespot, where he has spoken openly about their mistakes this generation, and flatly acknowledged that they are not "leading" in the current console sales battle. So what precisely would he gain by pretending it never happened now?

    Corporations don't operate like fanboys. They don't care what people on forums think about who is getting "dominated" or whatever - they care about sustained revenue increases for their shareholders. Fanboy Bux aren't a legal currency in any country I know of.

    ---

    Oh, and the Game Pass downloads of Forza Horizon 4 count every bit as much as retail purchases. I'm outie 5000 y'all.
     
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  16. Wolfe

    Wolfe Premium

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    Exactly. :) Cloud gaming is not "the future of gaming". At minimum, there will be PC + Nintendo all the way into the foreseeable future.
     
  17. Terronium-12

    Terronium-12 Moderator

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    :lol:
     
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  18. IngRobNy

    IngRobNy

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    You are forgetting that vinyl is back for a reason, many discovered that CD sound wasn't as good as vinly was and the interest for vinyl again increased, here in Norway it's getting harder and harder to buy CD's, vinyl is taking over again, I think the same would happen if gaming PC's and gaming consoles would completely vanish when the reality hits people about problems with game streaming, I don't think game streaming can ever be as good as playing games installed on your choosen gaming platform or discs, not even mention of the feeling of owning your games and maybe they (Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony) have to start up again making gaming consoles.

    Hold your horses! Where is my Playstation?! :p :lol:
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
  19. GTV0819

    GTV0819

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    Obviously. You do realize online games are very common nowadays, right? And that especially newer ones can never be played without an internet connection.
     
  20. IngRobNy

    IngRobNy

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    Internet connection is one thing, you don't have to be online with most single player games today, you need internet for updating your games and buy DLC's, always online games is totally different beasts, you can only play the game if the internet is working all the way from you to the streaming service and there is a lot that can go wrong and it does, Google Stadia is a good example how bad it can get, even GT S online is far from perfect, watch some races and you will see cars jump around (small jumps I must add) on the track and even races with everybody have 4 green bars (or 5 bars?).
     
  21. GTV0819

    GTV0819

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    Except that I'm not referring to those types of games. I'm mostly referring to ones that are MOBA and multiplayer first-person shooting games because they are common, especially in internet cafés.
     
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  22. Wolfe

    Wolfe Premium

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    Sony doesn't seem to be so much of a stubborn mule as Nintendo Co. Ltd. or PC gamers & developers. :)
     
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  23. ShakesMcQueen

    ShakesMcQueen

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    Vinyl is hardly "back", lol. It's a very small niche of the music industry, primarily aimed at traditionalist collectors.

    CDs went away because digital formats rendered them obsolete. And now subscription services like Spotify and Apple Music are eating away at digital purchases.

    Also, you "own" a game on Stadia, just as much as you "own" a game on Steam - which is to say, not really at all. And yet, digital game purchases are completely routine and unremarkable in 2020.
     
  24. IngRobNy

    IngRobNy

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    Glad I'm not a PC gamer, I will have the games I buy installed on my HD or buy discs, if had a PC I would buy discs as long as I could, after that, I'm not sure if I would continue to be a gamer.
     
  25. TokoTurismo

    TokoTurismo

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    Preach it brother! :tup::tup::tup:
     
  26. Northstar

    Northstar Premium

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    Modern game discs are little more than a clunky form of DRM thanks to the rise of the day 1 patch. Once the servers go down for a game you will be just as screwed as someone that bought it digitally if you need to re-install it.

    Honestly I'll be surprised to see games still getting disc releases in 10 years. They're becoming increasingly obsolete and use alot of plastic for something that will be sitting on a shelf. Now yes I know there is the secondhand market, but as demand for new copies of disc goes down so will the market for used copies.
     
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  27. GTV0819

    GTV0819

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    The biggest drawback of having multiple CDs of video games today is that they usually have high price tags (though depending on the title or exclusivity) if one acquires them during their launch, only for their premium to plummet down significantly once he or she starts selling them after time has passed by. Of course, if you are very rich or wealthy, this shouldn't matter that much.
     
  28. Wolfe

    Wolfe Premium

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    While your rights to a PC game as defined by the publisher/developer are often limited, your digital purchase still grants access to the files. You can play offline, maybe even modify the files. You "own" access to those files. There are also ways to "replace" many games on Steam even if Steam goes under tomorrow and your current HDD and any backup(s) are accidentally dropped into an industrial blender.

    Cloud gaming is just an online locker, and your account is the key. I view digital games/content on consoles similarly, which is a factor in my purchases. I could buy a PC game for full price, but I balk at spending more than $20 on a console storefront, except for the occasional online-only game (so why buy a disc?). Almost all of my digital console games are indies. Even better if they're also on PC, just in case.
     
  29. ShakesMcQueen

    ShakesMcQueen

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    You own nothing, and any access to Steam games that persists if Steam went away, would be at the discretion of Valve or those publishers - not an actual consumer right. You're buying a limited right to a license of a thing, that they assert the right to revoke at nearly their pleasure.

    Yes, local games grant direct access to a game's files, which matters for modding. Of course, mods can be distributed in ways that don't require that kind of access, as we've seen with Bethesda titles on the Xbox One.

    And for the record, those much ballyhooed physical discs for your console don't confer much more in the way of rights or usability, in the era of day one updates that replace 90% of a game's files, and always-online games. Discs have become glorified CD keys.
     
  30. GT6mebe

    GT6mebe

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    We already have sales numbers lmao

    UK

    [Week 46, 2006] 01 (NE) GEARS OF WAR (MICROSOFT) ~ 100,000 / NEW
    [Week 45, 2008] 01 (NE) GEARS OF WAR 2 (MICROSOFT) ~ 220,000 / NEW
    [Week 38, 2011] 01 (NE) GEARS OF WAR 3 (MICROSOFT) - 323,000 / NEW
    [Week 12, 2013] 01 (NE) GEARS OF WAR: JUDGEMENT (MICROSOFT) ~ 80,000 / NEW
    [Week 35, 2015] 01 (NE) GEARS OF WAR: ULTIMATE EDITION (MICROSOFT) ~ 40,000 / NEW
    GEARS OF WAR 4 ~ 92K
    GEARS OF WAR 5 ~ 18K

    NPD

    GOW 2 - 1.56 million
    GOW3 - 2 million +
    GOWJ - 620k
    GOW4 - ~415K / 505K
    GOW 5 - lower than 4

    Halo 3 - 3.3 million
    Halo 4 - 3.2 million
    Halo 5 - 935k

    70% collapse for Halo (US)
    66+% collapse for GOW (US)
    70% collapse for GOW pre GP (UK)
    95% collapse for GOW post GP (UK)

    Yes I know. This has nothing to do with Xbox or it's revenue.

    Sure MS's Cloud's competition are Amazon and Google. They are not Xbox's competition though.

    PR spin.

    You're right. They are even worse. PR will use disinformation, manipulation and all kinds of disingenuous tactics to spin news in their favour.

    Cool. Too bad MS Gaming being dominated is financial fact from their own FY reports and sales reports :lol: