Monaco Grand Prix

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F1 - Txnhockey
what'd you guys think of the race?
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I thought it was in Japan where you read pages back to front? :dopey:

Dude check back a couple of pages. ;)
 
I liked it, cause there was a lot going on. Fortunately, I finally got pay-tv again, which means I don't have to watch Formula 1 on the freely available station anymore. It's so biased towards Schumacher, you can't take it for five minutes if you're not an absolute Schumi nut.

Regards
the Interceptor
 
Man. I really did feel bad for Webber. But hey, maybe this is just the start of something good!

Is it too early to talk about Silverstone yet? What is the appropriate period of mourning before we move to the next race on the calendar? XD
 
Heh I'm going to the British GP race, all 3 days so I say commence now!! :lol: No usually a thread is up on the Thursday before it..
 
kylehnat
He didn't hit the wall at all. He just, well, stopped. Like my dad said: "If he wanted to do somethat that pathetic, he should have at least taken the front wing off the car." Claiming that you lost control of the car at Monaco and coming back to the pits with nary a scratch suggests that something is afoul.
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I agree, it looks bad, but that's not good enough to prove that it was purposeful.

Michael is no choir boy. There are several well-documented cases of him doing something dodgy or cowardly becuase he wasn't winning.
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That doesn't prove anything either.

If it had been any other driver, nobody would have suspected anything. But since he's Mr. Bigshot, everyone suspects foul play. It didn't look unreasonable to me. Especially considering that his teammate did a face plant earlier in qualifying.
 
danoff
If it had been any other driver, nobody would have suspected anything. But since he's Mr. Bigshot, everyone suspects foul play. It didn't look unreasonable to me. Especially considering that his teammate did a face plant earlier in qualifying.
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I'm sorry, but that's just not true. Any other driver, apart from Ide maybe, would have been facing the same charges. Only Schumacher was punished harder, because in his case, it was significantly mean to his direct competitors and an "assault" on the championship.

And if you look closely at it, it does absolutely seem like it was on purpose. He took a different line entering that curve already, corrected a light slide when breaking, then steered into it, and then turned to the left again for no reason, going only 10 (!!!) mph. After that, he just stopped in front of the wall. I'm sorry, but excellent drivers like him just don't to that on an incidental basis.
I've seen Frentzen, who is average at best, doing a "losing the back of the car in a corner, putting in 1st gear while sliding and making a burnout to stop the car sliding backwards into the wall"-thing successfully in Monaco a few years ago. If he can do that, Schumacher doesn't just stop in a corner he didn't get quite well accidently.

Regards
the Interceptor
 
the Interceptor
And if you look closely at it, it does absolutely seem like it was on purpose. He took a different line entering that curve already, corrected a light slide when breaking, then steered into it, and then turned to the left again for no reason, going only 10 (!!!) mph. After that, he just stopped in front of the wall. I'm sorry, but excellent drivers like him just don't to that on an incidental basis.
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Hardly. He countersteered to gain traction, then tried to steer his way out of it all while braking as hard as possible so as not to wreck. If you watch these guys lose traction on the track the first thing you'll see them do is turn into the skid to regain traction, then turn back out of it. Michael didn't do anything differently than everyone else does (and should do) in that situation. He only barely avoided doing a face-plant like his team mate did earlier.

Would you have felt better about it if he'd wrecked the car?
 
danoff
Hardly. He countersteered to gain traction, then tried to steer his way out of it all while braking as hard as possible so as not to wreck. If you watch these guys lose traction on the track the first thing you'll see them do is turn into the skid to regain traction, then turn back out of it. Michael didn't do anything differently than everyone else does (and should do) in that situation. He only barely avoided doing a face-plant like his team mate did earlier.
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He did countersteer, and after the car had regained traction and drove into the curve, he steered to the left again. It even looked funny on tv, but thinking of sitting in the car feeling what it does with your bum-meter, it's absolutely impossible to make such a rookie mistake for a seven times world champion.
danoff
Would you have felt better about it if he'd wrecked the car?
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That depends. If he'd have done the same thing and just put the car in the wall in the end, I'd think no different. If he'd have slid the car into the wall with blocked front tires, I'd grant him that he was trying too hard. It still could have been on purpose, but noone would have noticed.

Of course, cheating is still cheating even if everybody thinks you didn't, but if you cheat, at least make it look like it was an accident.

Regards
the Interceptor
 
danoff
Hardly. He countersteered to gain traction
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Had he done that only once, that would have been understandable. Twice? And doing even more countersteer the second time, while the car is going that slow? Please... Telemetry also revealed that he braked much harder, by a significant margin than he did otherwise all weekend in that corner, inducing a very convenient wheel lock up.

It's quite hard to believe that the emperor still has his clothes on at that point.

Massa lost it in a completely different section of the track, where you're going dowhnill and much faster, I don't see any relation between these two events. Besides, It's becoming an habit for Massa...
 
danoff
Hardly. He countersteered to gain traction, then tried to steer his way out of it all while braking as hard as possible so as not to wreck.
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The "countersteer" that we're talking about was done with full traction. The front wheels were gripping, which means that the car could have turned. Even if the rears were completely locked (and that did not appear to be the case), at that speed, turning the car would not have sent the back end around. Translation: there was no reason to keep the car pointed straight the way he did.
 
i finally saw the race :D...

i think schumacher accidentally turned in too early and since he screwed up that corner he made a split second decision to stay in that spot...
 
the Interceptor
He did countersteer, and after the car had regained traction and drove into the curve, he steered to the left again.
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Check the video again. He started to turn in to the turn early, so he steered out to adjust his trajectory. He then turns in again and you can see the right front wheel lock up and burn, that's when he countersteers (turns left for the second time). Then he turns right again but it's too late.

It's obvious from the video that the second time he straightens the wheel it's because his right front wheel just locked up.

Carl
Had he done that only once, that would have been understandable. Twice? And doing even more countersteer the second time, while the car is going that slow? Please...
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See above. The right front wheel locked up - he had no choice but to countersteer to regain traction, but by the time he regained traction he was in the wall.

Carl
Telemetry also revealed that he braked much harder, by a significant margin than he did otherwise all weekend in that corner, inducing a very convenient wheel lock up.
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Perhaps because his line was bad? Seriously what does this prove? I think if I'd turned in too early I'd brake harder than any previous time also.


Carl
It's quite hard to believe that the emperor still has his clothes on at that point.
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You missed your metaphor. Everyone thinks Michael is guilty, not the other way around. Emperor naked = Michael is innocent. Emperor has clothes = Michael is guilty. It's ok though because it's not particularly useful to quote tired cleches to prove a point.


Carl
Massa lost it in a completely different section of the track, where you're going dowhnill and much faster, I don't see any relation between these two events. Besides, It's becoming an habit for Massa...
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I noticed that Massa was in the wall on a different turn. I see a similarity though. Both cars were Ferrari and both lost traction because both were running hard compounds for the weekend possibly shooting for a 1 stop strategy. I wouldn't be surprised if Massa's crash was on or near an out lap.


Note: I won't deny the possibility that this was intentional. It did look bad and it was awfully convenient. I'm just not willing to pronounce him guilty based on circumstance.
 
danoff
Note: I won't deny the possibility that this was intentional. It did look bad and it was awfully convenient. I'm just not willing to pronounce him guilty based on circumstance.
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And neither was the FIA. Remember, they were not totally convinced by the video alone, either. They deliberated for eight hours with the video and Ferrari telemetry before making their decision.
 
kylehnat
And neither was the FIA. Remember, they were not totally convinced by the video alone, either. They deliberated for eight hours with the video and Ferrari telemetry before making their decision.
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Ok, I just don't understand their verdict. I guess I don't have as much information to go on - but neither do any of you.
 
danoff
Check the video again. He started to turn in to the turn early, so he steered out to adjust his trajectory. He then turns in again and you can see the right front wheel lock up and burn, that's when he countersteers (turns left for the second time). Then he turns right again but it's too late.

It's obvious from the video that the second time he straightens the wheel it's because his right front wheel just locked up.
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Because he was braking way too hard locking up his tires at... 16km/h? You obviously won't make it if you countersteer that much, late in that corner. I've seen onboard videos from other drivers counter steering that corner, and noone went all the way to the other side (let alone twice), it was just "steer right, quick nudge towards the center, then all the way back to the right, since otherwise, (oh, surprise!) you'll end up facing the wall.

See above. The right front wheel locked up - he had no choice but to countersteer to regain traction, but by the time he regained traction he was in the wall.
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See above: 16 kilometers per hour. Last time I've checked, Bridgestone tires aren't coated with soap.

Perhaps because his line was bad? Seriously what does this prove? I think if I'd turned in too early I'd brake harder than any previous time also.
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Again, see above.

You missed your metaphor. Everyone thinks Michael is guilty, not the other way around. Emperor naked = Michael is innocent. Emperor has clothes = Michael is guilty. It's ok though because it's not particularly useful to quote tired cleches to prove a point.
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erm, what? I wasn't trying to "prove a point" by saying that, it was merely a remark. And you missed my metaphor: the one where Emperor naked = "Micheal was cheating".

I noticed that Massa was in the wall on a different turn. I see a similarity though. Both cars were Ferrari and both lost traction because both were running hard compounds for the weekend possibly shooting for a 1 stop strategy. I wouldn't be surprised if Massa's crash wasn't on or near an out lap.
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I'm not following you there. What do using a hard compound and shooting for a 1 stop strategy have to do with Massa ending up in a wall (as we're getting used to) or Micheal parking his at the Rascasse? Micheal was the fastest until that lap, so the compound he was using seemed to have a decent amount of grip.

I agree that no one but Schumacher has the definite answer to that debate. Even if it wasn't deliberate, it was a pretty blunt mistake that deservecd to be punished instead of making a gain out of it.
 
:lol: Carl, I'm not sure even you understand your metaphor. You do realize that in the emperor's clothes story everyone acted as if the emperor had clothes. That doesn't exactly play out here. The fable was about everyone lying about something to cover their own insecurities. What does it really have to do with this? Nada.

Anyway back to the point. I don't care how fast he was going at the instant he countersteered the second time, his right front tire locked up. You say it locked up and was smoking at 16km/hr. I don't know how you know that, but fine. It was locked up and he was plowing straight. I won't question a driver that countersteers out of lockup to try to regain traction.

I'm not following you there. What do using a hard compound and shooting for a 1 stop strategy have to do with Massa ending up in a wall (as we're getting used to) or Micheal parking his at the Rascasse?
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Both of them were using harder compounds than they're used to on an extremely tight track with less downforce than usual. I'd say that's a recipe for lockup.
 
danoff
:lol: Carl, I'm not sure even you understand your metaphor. You do realize that in the emperor's clothes story everyone acted as if the emperor had clothes. That doesn't exactly play out here. The fable was about everyone lying about something to cover their own insecurities. What does it really have to do with this? Nada.
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Wow... that was a simple remark, not worth of an analytical dissertation. At the end, everybody admits/sees he has no clothes, right?


Anyway back to the point. I don't care how fast he was going at the instant he countersteered the second time, his right front tire locked up. You say it locked up and was smoking at 16km/hr. I don't know how you know that, but fine. It was locked up and he was plowing straight. I won't question a driver that countersteers out of lockup to try to regain traction.
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I'm fine with countersteering. But twice, that hard?


Both of them were using harder compounds than they're used to on an extremely tight track with less downforce than usual. I'd say that's a recipe for lockup.
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Again, that didn't seem to be a problem for him in every other lap, both during qualification sessions and the race.
 
Did he intionally block the track or didn't he???????
Who cares!!
It's over, the race has been run!!

Since I can bet most of you have never driven a race car & I know no one here has driven anything that comes close to the performance of an F1 car your opinions carry as much weight as what I scrape of my boots after walking in a cow field!!!
There are no experts here so can we just move on to something else?!!?!?!?

I could care less if Shumi did it intentionally or not, the FIA said he did & there is no turning back, case closed.
It did make an exciting race to see a great driver make a run from the back & finish in the points like he did!!!
 
TheMoose
???????
!!
!!

!!!
?!!?!?!?

!!!
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…because your argument carries more weight if you use a superfluous amount of exclamation marks and question marks.
 
Blake
…because your argument carries more weight if you use a superfluous amount of exclamation marks and question marks.
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Well if after trying to pick apart my argument if you can ony complain about my punctuation I don't have a problem with that!:)
 
danoff
Anyway back to the point. I don't care how fast he was going at the instant he countersteered the second time, his right front tire locked up. You say it locked up and was smoking at 16km/hr. I don't know how you know that, but fine. It was locked up and he was plowing straight. I won't question a driver that countersteers out of lockup to try to regain traction.
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I'm fine with that as well, but I think his front wheel wasn't locked up at the time. I looked at the footage again, but due to its limited quality, I couldn't see enough. I still have the qualifying recorded on hdd from digital pay-tv (with very good quality), so I'm gonna take a closer look when I come home from work today.

Regards
the Interceptor
 
Roo
Like Schumi in 04? :p

What Schmui did was stupid and pointless, and he got what he deserved. Not suprised he got 4th, Massa should really have been with him.
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Michael came 5th not 4th! Did you watch the race?
 
TheMoose
Face it all you Schumi haters, he's still one of the best drivers in the world & people will be talking about him long after Alonso is forgotten about driving unreliable Mclarens!!!
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I second that about Schumi :) Apart from the unreliable Mclaren bit! I hope they can pick their game up soon!!
 
Small_Fryz
Which is why i wonder if what he did was on purpose or not.
  1. He was on pole
  2. He was on a very fast lap
  3. His car was very fast
  4. Its early in the championship
So why would he need to do it?
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Exactly, why would he! Schumi is innocent!!
 

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