new audi tt (concept)

[Famine]

That depends on the spec of the TT.

Anything more than the entry-level model rules you out of the £25,000 limit.

If the TT is fitted with S-line rims aka RS4 alloys then its beautiful.

The wheels on the TT aren't bad at all. It's the rest of the car that's the let-down.

A couple million people cant be wrong

Why not? More than a "couple million people" got endowment mortgages. Were they not wrong?

Does this mean that the Ford Ka is more beautiful, since more people have bought it than the TT?

Also, if only a "couple million people" have bought one, 38 million people haven't...

but then again isnt the TT like one of the best selling coupes ever?

Isn't the Toyota Corolla the best-selling CAR ever? Does this make it beautiful?

This audi A4 cabriolet pawns each of those cars in the looks department alone.

Lawks! An Audi A4 looks better than the Alfa GT? Or the S2 Lotus Elise?

Do me a lemon.

 

[Young_Warrior]

Well now you see. With the elise plenty of people think its rather ugly. Like the TT its kind of a hate it or love it thing. And seeing as the TT is wholly impractical, all its sales are on the fact that its a affordable beauty.

The A4 cabriolet is very different from a normal A4 with its minimalistic lines similiar to a TT whilst the alfa has things potruding out from it and has rough edges.

The TT and audi A4 carbriolet are effortlessly stylish.

 

[Famine]

With the elise plenty of people think its rather ugly.

They're generally people who think the TT isn't, so they can be discounted.

Like the TT its kind of a hate it or love it thing. And seeing as the TT is wholly impractical, all its sales are on the fact that its a affordable beauty.

Compared to the oh-so practical Elise?

People buy the TT as an accessory. They think it's cool - like wearing branded sportswear when they don't play sports. This is a perfect analogy for the Audi TT - a car which doesn't handle for people who couldn't drive it if it did.

What they don't twig is that when EVERYONE has one, it's not cool any more. It's like the gold thing - give everyone in the whole world a bar of gold and most people will think "Great! We'll all be rich!" and not "But wait. That'll devalue gold, and we'd be no better off than we are now."

The A4 cabriolet is very different from a normal A4 with its minimalistic lines

Minimalistic = boring.

the alfa has things potruding out from it

Like... wing mirrors?

Anyway, the Audi TT does too - a boot spoiler, because the original design was rubbish!

 

[TheCracker]

TT's are bought by people with absolutely no imagination. They think they're a cool car, like they think those expensive, badly finished 'city centre' flats are a cool place to live. They think they drive a sports car, but really its an average handling hatch-in-drag, much like the Puma/Fiesta - although the Puma was actually quite good.

TT's may have been praised for their looks (which is really a matter of opinion) but slagged off for its crappy, uninvolving handling, bland engine sound and average performance by almost every publication.

I've heard the next TT will come with a special hatch designed to fit those 'For Sale' signs you get outside houses, and a coat hook especially designed for cheap Next suit jackets.

 

[Dave A]

First of all the audi TT is the most beautiful car you can buy for 25 grand.
Secondly the next audi TT will look nothing like that concept I dont know why they put TT on the name. It cheapens it.

For 25 grand I can buy one of the best looking cars every made, a second hand TVR Cerbera or a second hand TVR Griffith, both are regarded incredibly highly for their design, but both will kick the **** out of anything elsenew thats less than 50 grand.

Yes I said the TVR word again.

Also as Famine pointed out theres far more choices than the TT if it's style your after, I see 4 or 5 TT's in Didsbury every time I go through it, it's horrible to see. It's like the number of Porsche Boxster owners, the only saving grace for them is that the Boxster can perform.

Aslo I believe the Alfa Romeo Brera will cost less than a TT when it's released, now theres a stylish car that will no doubt handle well too.

If you like the looks of the TT then it's a personal choice, but the cars not cool, especially if everytime I see one I think "wanker".

 

[Young_Warrior]

Ye but you can pick up a TT for 9 grand aswel now.
As it goes the TT was a marketing success. A pretty car for couple who couldnt care less about performance.

 

[Dave A]

Oh it was success, but that doesn't make it a cool car.

 

[Young_Warrior]

If you could have one for free instead of what your driving now would you take it? I sure know I wouldnt mind a TT instead of driving the S40.

 

[Dave A]

I would and I'd sell it straight away, the only reason I'd take it over what I have is becuse it's worth more and I could sell it and buy what I've got again and have cash left over, not because I like it more. I'd much rather an S40 than a TT.

 

[Famine]

If you could have one for free instead of what your driving now would you take it? I sure know I wouldnt mind a TT instead of driving the S40.

Absolutely not.

 

[Young_Warrior]

Well i srive the s40 and ive sat in a TT and well id much rather have a TT. Famine what car do you drive.

 

[Famine]

A Mazda MX-3. It's in the "What car do you drive" thread, somewhere.

 

[TheCracker]

I'd have a TT over what i drive now - I'd have most cars over what i drive now. Everyone would have one given, but i'd never buy one, new or used. Out of all the VAG cars it shares its chassis with, the TT is the one i'd least want to spend money on - Skoda included.

 

[James2097]

Alfas look far too featuristic and tacky, with horrid wheels and trim that will fall off as soon as autumn comes (after buying them in the spring).
Famine, you're a smart guy, but clearly aesthetically underdeveloped (boyish tastes, needing agressive, featuristic elements in a design for it to appeal, unable to appreciate minimalism... A scientist should LOVE minimalism - the concept of distilling an object down to its core function and fullfilling that in the most elegant and efficient way possible - done well, it can be very beautiful. The ultimate of form following function. Look at designs by Mies Van Der Rohe, I.M. Pei, Apple, even Colin Chapman (whom you probably love, being a pom and all)!). Now I'm going to sound like a tosser, but... As a designer, I get paid because my aesthetic judgement has been proven to be better than most, certainly more highly tuned than most boy racers or opinionated poms. The TT, whilst being a rubbish car performance wise, is considered a design icon. I know its hard to divorce the looks from the functional problems... By being "cool" I meant that it looks good, not that I would actually want one, this isn't some immature concept of cool like Top Gear's "cool" wall, where it becomes just as trendy (and therefore hypocritical) to hate certain cars that are considered unmanly or for tossers or women who can't drive or whoever... TTs still LOOK good regardless. Hypothetically, if everyone drove Aston Martin DB9s or Ferraris (cost or badge irrelevant), my opinion regarding each car's aesthetic quality (and hence "coolness") would not change, I would look at (and judge) each car the same way regardless of its price, popularity, performance or even badge. The shape of the TT is beautiful.

Come to that, the shape of the original Volkswagen Beetle is also beautiful. Why is this comparison a supposed negative? Ferdinand Porsche knew what he was doing! Just because a design isn't inherently manly or macho, it doesn't make it bad, appreciating it just takes a little aesthetic maturity.

Ok, end pointless rant.

 

[Young_Warrior]

excellently put

 

[Famine]

Alfas look far too featuristic and tacky, with horrid wheels and trim that will fall off as soon as autumn comes (after buying them in the spring).

Famine, you're a smart guy, but clearly aesthetically underdeveloped (boyish tastes, needing agressive, featuristic elements in a design for it to appeal, unable to appreciate minimalism... A scientist should LOVE minimalism - the concept of distilling an object down to its core function and fullfilling that in the most elegant and efficient way possible - done well, it can be very beautiful.

I'm bihemispheric. I'm an artistic scientist. I also have very eclectic tastes.

Though I'm not sure quite where you get the idea that I only appreciate "aggressive", "manly" and "macho" cars from - to me, all cars are female. In fact one of my colleagues said today that the TT was "Trying too hard to be muscular". This colleague is female.

By being "cool" I meant that it looks good, not that I would actually want one

But it just... doesn't.

The arches look stuck on. The line demarcating the bonnet from the headlights interrupts the flow of the front end - lights stop HERE. Bonnet starts HERE. The boot spoiler looks stuck on - probably because it was, because they decided form was more important than function. In a car that's just irresponsible and, at worst (as Audi proved with the TT) plain dangerous. The cabin "cell" is just in the wrong place, and makes the profile of the car look like a 2 foot Burmese python swallowing a rat.

But, just like the Z4 which followed it, there's no impression of unity in the car. Sections of it just... are, without any one leading into any other, from any angle.

The TT is just a plain ugly car - as well as a bad one.

this isn't some immature concept of cool like Top Gear's "cool" wall, where it becomes just as trendy (and therefore hypocritical) to hate certain cars that are considered unmanly or for tossers or women who can't drive or whoever...

If it was trendy to hate them, why do "hipsters" still buy them? And, seriously, when was the last time you saw a roadgoing TT on a track day?

Come to that, the shape of the original Volkswagen Beetle is also beautiful. Why is this comparison a supposed negative?

It wasn't designed at all. Someone left the heating on at VAG and the clay model of the New Beetle melted.

Ferdinand Porsche knew what he was doing! Just because a design isn't inherently manly or macho, it doesn't make it bad, appreciating it just takes a little aesthetic maturity.

Ball, not man, James. Just because I think the Audi TT is a poorly-thought-out excuse for an automotive status symbol and you don't, there's no need to try insulting me.

 

[Young_Warrior]

If im not mistaken famine didnt you lust after a esprite some time ago.

The TT is a much nicer looking can than the esprit and the esprite is rather minimalistic aswell. Just put it next to te original.

 

[Famine]

If im not mistaken famine didnt you lust after a esprite some time ago.

I still do. But I'm buying another house instead.

Boring, sensible and - dare I say it - mature, I know, but it should turn enough profit that I can get a Sport350 in a couple of years (or even an AMV8V in 5/6).

The TT is a much nicer looking can than the esprit

*guffaws*

Esprit design lasted 30 years with only minimal changes - the '02 shape is as recognisable as an Esprit as the S1. The TT lasted, what, 7 years?

and the esprite is rather minimalistic aswell. Just put it next to te original.

Case in point - as I said:

I'm bihemispheric. I'm an artistic scientist. I also have very eclectic tastes.

Not liking the TT shape doesn't make me "immature". It means I don't like the TT shape.

 

[Dave A]

The TT is a much nicer looking can than the esprit

Thats just not true at all, the Esprit is 1000 times better looking than the TT.

 

[McLaren]

Boring, sensible and - dare I say it - mature, I know, but it should turn enough profit that I can get a Sport350 in a couple of years (or even an AMV8V in 5/6).

A Sport350?

I love the car in GT4, but I would have never thought I would hear someone actually considering one.

Not that I don't like it, just that that's the last car I'd expect to hear being wanted.

 

[McLaren]

Alfas look far too featuristic and tacky, with horrid wheels and trim that will fall off as soon as autumn comes (after buying them in the spring).

Well, I agree that some Alfas have that look, but surprisingly, I like alot of the new Alfa Romeo. 1 reason I'll like a car is if it has the essence of the country its made in.

The Alfa Romeo has that Italian essence in its design, IMO.
I feel the same way with other cars even with the 1st Boxsters. They have a German essence in their design as does the new Cayman, excluding their made from a well known German company.

I like Alfa Romeos as much as that would have surprised me back in 2001. Why? Back then I was never a big fan of any makers like Alfa, Saab, or Volvo. But until I saw some of their new "sport" looking models like the 156 GTA, I feel in love with them.

Alfa Romeo V6 GT> TT and S40.
But that's me.

 

[niky]

If you could have one for free instead of what your driving now would you take it? I sure know I wouldnt mind a TT instead of driving the S40.

You're gonna get quoted for that for another four pages. I'd rather drive the new S40 than a TT.

I agree with James on the TT point, I'd never drive one, but I recognize it as a triumph of design. Unfortunately, the design doesn't work very well for an automobile. I read this in a letter, from R&T back in the 90's:

"If someone showed me a model in bronze of the Camaro, I'd say it was the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen, that flowing shape... etc... etc... / But if I were to see one for the first time as a car, I would never guess where the engine was..."

Good design doesn't always mean it clicks in our consciousness as a well-designed car all the time, but you've got to give them props for trying.

But this "Shooting Brake" isn't bad as far as design goes... like I said, look at this:

and it's a good design... cohesive, modern and defintely not disjointed...

look at this:

and it's just plain fugly.

By the way, I actually like Alfas, just for the quirkiness of the design...

 

[Young_Warrior]

Lets not put alfas into equation as their design over function. Oh and they have a dendency to fall apart aswell. They have always looked nice but as a car they were pretty hopeless.

And just for the record outside of england many people dont think highly of the esprit at all. Its OK is what someone might say to you outside of england if you asked them what they thought about it. You can go around the world and ask people what they think about the looks of the TT and most will like it.

Also I dont think the TT is cool because theyre so many on the roads now and because its a bit of a womans car. The fact that a S2000 will give it a kicking around a track doesnt bother me as if I wanted a track car well then I would have brought a S2000. However when it first arrived on our shores and I had the oppurtunity to have one I would have and kept it untill about 2 years later when people started making it gay. The thing is what is cool one day dpending on what type of people then decide to pick it up and jump on the bandwagon can then also make it uncool.

 

[a6m5]

I don't really like TT or the Concept. I can kind of see why some people might like the old TT, it definitely is unique. Is it better looking than Esprit or S2000, I don't think so. I always found TT's styling to be bit gimmicky, like it's trying too hard to look the way it does. Just my feeling on it.

 

[TheCracker]

Lets not put alfas into equation as their design over function. Oh and they have a dendency to fall apart aswell. They have always looked nice but as a car they were pretty hopeless.

Two members of my family in recent times have owned Alfas - neither had any problems with them mechanically, and nothing ever dropped off them. Alfas of the 70's and 80's were well know for poor reliability and extream rusting, just like all mass produced Italian cars of the era. Alfas these days get poor press because of the crap dealer network, where most Alfa garages are manned by unhelpful, uncaring imbeciles.

And just for the record outside of england many people dont think highly of the esprit at all. Its OK is what someone might say to you outside of england if you asked them what they thought about it. You can go around the world and ask people what they think about the looks of the TT and most will like it.

The Esprit has always sold in greater numbers outside the UK - someone must like it.

Also I dont think the TT is cool because theyre so many on the roads now and because its a bit of a womans car. The fact that a S2000 will give it a kicking around a track doesnt bother me as if I wanted a track car well then I would have brought a S2000. However when it first arrived on our shores and I had the oppurtunity to have one I would have and kept it untill about 2 years later when people started making it gay. The thing is what is cool one day dpending on what type of people then decide to pick it up and jump on the bandwagon can then also make it uncool.

The TT has always been uncool - as soon as the concept appeared in all the 'style' mags w*nkers started placing their deposits for them. The first people to own them were exactly the sort of person who gives them a bad name, most early TT's in the UK were LHD imports, so not only were early TT owners desperate w*nkers, they were dangerous-on-the-road desperate w*nkers. Coincidentaly, these people are now generally Cayenne owners.

 

[Young_Warrior]

Well if they now driving cayennes then I want to be one of those w*nkers as they have obviously seemingly done well for themselves.

And in which country did the esprit seller better in than other the UK. I can only think of maybe america in the 70's and 80's?

 

[TheCracker]

Well if they now driving cayennes then I want to be one of those w*nkers as they have obviously seemingly done well for themselves.

And in which country did the esprit seller better in than other the UK. I can only think of maybe america in the 70's and 80's?

Yes

&

Yes : 💡

 

[James2097]

I'm bihemispheric. I'm an artistic scientist. I also have very eclectic tastes.

Purple is the most eclectic colour (how individual and a bit edgy). I know your taste better than you think. You renaissance man there Famine...
Bihemispheric? Two Famines! Oh no!

Though I'm not sure quite where you get the idea that I only appreciate "aggressive", "manly" and "macho" cars from - to me, all cars are female. In fact one of my colleagues said today that the TT was "Trying too hard to be muscular". This colleague is female.

I never said that you ONLY appreciate cars that are macho, but if you like Alfas, then you want a car that's just as tosserish (featuristic style, brand "coolness" over quality) as me liking the look of Audi TTs (looks over performance/safety).
Cars aren't made male or female (I hate this strange thing where old men refer to all ships/cars/planes etc "she"). They are plastic and metal for Gods sake! There are design elements that generally appeal to either women or men however, but giving a car a sex is just strange. The sharp lines and heavily geometrical nature of the TT is probably why your colleague thinks it looks too muscular (and possibly why I like it) - mainly the wheel arches. I still see a simple, clean contemporary design. Yes, the wheel arches are a bit featuristic and probably where the car has dated a little. It looks maybe a little clinical and cold, lacking emotion a bit, but this is also part of its futuristic cool. There is nothing wrong with the overall proportion. I still like it overall. Maybe its about time to say I only like (strictly aesthetically) the ones with a hard top, it doesn't work as a convertible. The roof gives a stylistic link that validate why the wheel arches are so bold. The shape overall is consistent in style (among its various elements) and possesses classic sportscar proportions, I don't know what you're on about there.

But it just... doesn't.

The arches look stuck on. The line demarcating the bonnet from the headlights interrupts the flow of the front end - lights stop HERE. Bonnet starts HERE. The boot spoiler looks stuck on - probably because it was, because they decided form was more important than function. In a car that's just irresponsible and, at worst (as Audi proved with the TT) plain dangerous. The cabin "cell" is just in the wrong place, and makes the profile of the car look like a 2 foot Burmese python swallowing a rat.

But, just like the Z4 which followed it, there's no impression of unity in the car. Sections of it just... are, without any one leading into any other, from any angle.

The TT is just a plain ugly car - as well as a bad one.

Yes, the design was irresponsible, but we are talking about looks. Which are completely subjective - as has been proven. Its a love it or hate it car. I feel you're going in with a preconcieved notion of how a car should be designed. Ignoring the fact that its even a "car", the shape is interesting and appealing, regardless of driver position, ergononics, or how it even works etc.
For the record, I lost a lot of favour with the design as soon as the boot spoiler appeared. Its the only element that significantly interferes with the lines IMO. The car is supposed to look crisp, stark, sharp, mysteriously high tech etc whilst retaining its overall smooth outer skin. The apparent disparity between the distinct edges of the various elements and the overall more rounded smoothness (that you think doesn't fit) is what gives the car its interest for me. This constrast gives the car an industrial style rawness (weld bits on wherever they're needed) that makes it look interesting. As this is done while adhering to a solid sense of proportion and overall geometric similarity of the elements (very Bauhaus), it works. Its truly a great design concept, its very painstakingly thought out and executed.

Unfortunately, it just didn't make a good car. This we agree on, so you don't need to talk about the functional aspect...

Yes, the Z4 is horrid. Seemingly random convex/concave surfaces, laughable "zorro" z on the side. More featuristic (sorry for that word again) than any car of late, although automotive design is getting more and more that way trying to find a way to make cars stand out - the new face of Subaru - UGH!

If it was trendy to hate them, why do "hipsters" still buy them?

These 'hipsters' aren't the only ones I'm reffering to as trying to be trendy. Its just as trendy and hence "tragic" (in a different group - ie serious automotive enthusiasts) to dislike anyone and any related product that are percieved to place style over substance. (iPods for one - there are iPod tragics, and then iPod hating tragics). All I'm doing is acknowledging the fact that Audi TTs do have a unique and interesting design, they're certainly appealing to a certain aesthetic and to a certain kind of person. I'm just not judging that type of person. They are often tossers, but thats not stopping me from respecting the car as a valid and successful design statement.

And, seriously, when was the last time you saw a roadgoing TT on a track day?

I refer you to my above statement regarding people who think THEY are superior because they're evidently soo informed about serious performance cars and don't have a cat called Jean-Luc. Basically I don't like casting judgement on people for aesthetic reasons, which are really quite subjective anyway. MOST people are quite vain I find, even those who like to think they're not. Everyone wants to be percieved a certain way (cough **purple text** cough). Sometimes that way can even be trying not to be cool and to be a bastard to those who are tragic fashion victims. It doesn't help anyone much. Who cares if people don't race TTs? It doesn't impact the merit of the car aesthetically, which is all I was ever talking about. Yes, if you want a car that goes fast around a track, or that you're going to drive so fast that it takes off, don't buy an Audi TT.

Ball, not man, James. Just because I think the Audi TT is a poorly-thought-out excuse for an automotive status symbol and you don't, there's no need to try insulting me.

I'm not insulting YOU in a general sense (I've said before that I have a great respect for you), just your idea that you are always right and thats that. Surely you can at least acknowledge why people may be drawn to the TT, despite its impracticalities and comparitive lack of performance? Whats wrong with designing a car that isn't fast (its fast enough for the general consumer and public roads anyway)? That appeals to women (and men with the appropriately named cat )? You are not the high arbiter of style, nor need to prove an expert at everything. As a designer, if a product attracts many customers while being genuinly unique, its tends to be thought of as a successful design, and an important one. When the TT first came out, it defined modern "chic" (I hate that word) in car design. Thats why TTs still sell.
I don't care who they sell to. If product is going out the door at a fast rate, its a good design. Of course its very bad if the car is crap safety wise, but thats why they put the spoiling spoiler on.

I respect your opinion and reasons for not liking it, but I am just annoyed that you can't seem to respect my reasons (and the many people who bought the car) for liking it's looks.

 

[Dave A]

I believe the vast majority of Esprits were purchased in the UK by importers, the majority of them were shipped to the US. Over 636 were imported to America officially but far more ended up there, the exact figure is hard to get since most of them were unofficial imports.

 

[Famine]

Last point first...

I respect your opinion and reasons for not liking it, but I am just annoyed that you can't seem to respect my reasons (and the many people who bought the car) for liking it's looks.

If you like its looks, you're wrong...

But if you're secure enough in your opinion, it's right. It doesn't matter what anyone else says, or thinks - whether it's me, or Mohammed, or Maddox ("If you disagree with anything you find on this page, you are wrong.").

You're still wrong though...

Purple is the most eclectic colour (how individual and a bit edgy).

Everyone wants to be percieved a certain way (cough **purple text** cough).

I thought you "get paid because my aesthetic judgement has been proven to be better than most"?

But you can't tell indigo from purple...

My indigo is not for my wants, or my eclecticism, or even striving for individualism (though it does make my posts stand out when I'm trying to scan a long thread for reference points). It is because of biology - on light backgrounds, indigo is the easiest colour for the eye to perceive.

I'm adding time to your life, by reducing the energy required to read my posts. You'd think you could be grateful...

I never said that you ONLY appreciate cars that are macho, but if you like Alfas, then you want a car that's just as tosserish (featuristic style, brand "coolness" over quality) as me liking the look of Audi TTs (looks over performance/safety).

There is nothing wrong with Alfa quality. The only problem Alfa have is dumbass dealerships and aftersales.

That aside, I don't "like Alfas". I like the GT, Brera and 156. The 147 is awful, the 166 looks, like the TT, as if it's had a stroke and I've always detested the GTV/Spider.

These 'hipsters' aren't the only ones I'm reffering to as trying to be trendy. Its just as trendy and hence "tragic" (in a different group - ie serious automotive enthusiasts) to dislike anyone and any related product that are percieved to place style over substance. (iPods for one - there are iPod tragics, and then iPod hating tragics).

I don't hate anything. I'm supremely lazy, and I'm not going to waste vital energy expending enough thought on things I dislike to hate them.

I like or dislike things because I like or dislike them. Occasionally this fits in with a group of people (Sheffield Wednesday supporters - a SMALL group of people... ), but similarly occasionally it doesn't. Again, I'm not going to waste vital energy expending enough though on whether I'll fit in, or people will like me because of what I like and dislike. I just, frankly, can't be arsed.


I dislike the TT because it's ugly (and crap), not because "cool" people drive them. My old boss used to drive one - he wasn't THAT much of a tosser, but, like me, he didn't care whether or not people liked or disliked him because he was a TT driver. He had one because he liked it, regardless.