*** New Corvette Z06 ***

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Becasue the Enzo is already stiffer than the C6R, it's already capable of more more performance than the C6R, if you stick a C6R on road tyres and remove the rear wing, it'll get hammered by an Enzo. A carbon chassis is the stiffest you get, the only way to match that would be to rip apart the whole car and build a carbon chassis which isn't happening. Anyway as you said it's not the most productive argument but maybe when theres more info it can progress some more. Also what do you want to know about TVR's? I must have missed it or forgot if you've asked for info before.
 
TheCracker
This should give you the info you are looking for:
http://www.tvr-eng.co.uk
Thanks, bro. I'll give it a look. I shouldn't be gone too long, I hope!

live4speed
Becasue the Enzo is already stiffer than the C6R, it's already capable of more more performance than the C6R, if you stick a C6R on road tyres and remove the rear wing, it'll get hammered by an Enzo. A carbon chassis is the stiffest you get, the only way to match that would be to rip apart the whole car and build a carbon chassis which isn't happening. Anyway as you said it's not the most productive argument but maybe when theres more info it can progress some more. Also what do you want to know about TVR's? I must have missed it or forgot if you've asked for info before.
No, it won't. The Enzo weighs 3254 lbs, 1480 kg. The C6R weighs 2420lbs, or 1100 kg. The enzo has 651hp, and 485 ft lbs torque. The C6R has between 750 and 800 hp, and being NA, I'm sure it has torque through the nose. Besides having a COMPLETE racing suspension and brakes, not a MOSTLY racing suspension and brakes. Did you miss the article where the MC12's brakes literally caught on fire? Are you seriously telling me the Enzo would be faster?
 
The C6R has around 600-620Bhp, it wouldn't be allowed into GT1 racing with it's power that high. And yes, put a C6R on road tyres and take away it's wings and an Enzo would be able to lap a track faster, it wouldn't do as many laps becasue it'd need different brakes ect but it'd be capable of doing a lap faster. You seem to be forgetting, the MC12 and Enzo use racing terchnology, unless it's something you actually know the answer to, don't argue this fact because it's known that the MC12 is a faster car than the MCC and the MCC was a faster race car than the C6R. So the MC12 must be faster than the C6R and the Enzo is only marginally slower on a track than an MC12.
 
Actually an Enzo is faster around a track than an MC12, no matter what Top Gear says. The brakes on the Enzo are better, it's lighter, has better aerodynamics (without a wing that is) and is stiffer (no removable roof). I have no idea why you would think a heavier convertible would be faster than its coupe counterpart.

BlazinXtreme
But look at this way, you can't buy an Enzo for under 100k, hell you can't buy an Enzo period. The Blue Devil will not be an elitest car (anythign elite I hate pretty much), some slightly rich guys will buy them.

The Enzo isn't in the same class though because you will never see them on the road, thats what I hate about Ferraris. Only the elite people can buy them, and you have to be selected to buy an Enzo. Chevy doesn't care who you are, they will sell anyone a vette.

That's because there are a lot more Chevrolets than Ferraris. Chevrolet also needs the buyers for as many cars as they can get. Ferrari doesn't at this time. There are huge waiting lists for all their cars, the Enzo included when it sold. Like I said, Chevy will sell anyone a Vette because they need as many buyers as they can get, and there are actually enough Vettes to sell like that. There aren't enough Ferraris to go around.

Ferrari chose Enzo owners because they wanted to make sure the cars would go to the owners who cared for the cars and drove them regularly, guys like Frank Mountain and Rich Losee. Mr. Losee has more than 30k (miles) on his Enzo already.

You also can't buy an Enzo because there are only 400 of them. There are way more than 400 Vettes.
 
The MC12 is just as stiff as an Enzo, if not stiffer - the roof in an Enzo adds no rigidity to the chassis (they share the same chassis) its not like a 3 series convertable vs. a hardtop 3 series where you have to strengthen the chassis to cope with the loss of the roof. I believe the MC12 has lapped Fiorano quicker then an Enzo, although i can't remember where i read that.
 
TheCracker
The MC12 is just as stiff as an Enzo, if not stiffer - the roof in an Enzo adds no rigidity to the chassis (they share the same chassis) its not like a 3 series convertable vs. a hardtop 3 series where you have to strengthen the chassis to cope with the loss of the roof. I believe the MC12 has lapped Fiorano quicker then an Enzo, although i can't remember where i read that.

No, I would really doubt that. In terms of politics, Ferrari wouldn't let the Enzo's little brother be faster. I doubt Ferrari would let Maserati top them with a variation of their car.
 
TheCracker is right, the MC12 can corner faster than an Enzo, they are both just as stiff , the Enzo's roof does add slightly to the cars rigidity but they made up for that in the MC12 by making some of the bars thicker ect. Theres very little between the two, but so far, the MC12 has proven to beat the Enzo round a track more than once, I've yet to see it the other way round.
 
live4speed
The C6R has around 600-620Bhp, it wouldn't be allowed into GT1 racing with it's power that high. And yes, put a C6R on road tyres and take away it's wings and an Enzo would be able to lap a track faster, it wouldn't do as many laps becasue it'd need different brakes ect but it'd be capable of doing a lap faster. You seem to be forgetting, the MC12 and Enzo use racing terchnology, unless it's something you actually know the answer to, don't argue this fact because it's known that the MC12 is a faster car than the MCC and the MCC was a faster race car than the C6R. So the MC12 must be faster than the C6R and the Enzo is only marginally slower on a track than an MC12.
Yup, I was mistaken about the C6R's power, but you never adressed the 800 pounds heavier the enzo is. You still think it would be faster? I dont' see how you can maintain that postion. You think a stiffer chassis (which is debatable--I've never seen anything SHOW the Enzo's chassis is stiffer than the C6R's. The Z06? I'll buy that. The C6R? NO WAY) can make up for NO power advantage and an 800 pound disadvantage?
 
The MCC uses the MC12's chassis which uses the Enzo's chassis, all three of them are stiffer than the C6R. The Enzo and MC12 are faster than the MCC which in turn was faster than the C6R, thats how I know it's faster. The race cars have to be limited to a certain performance level, they have restrictions on electronics and restrictors fitted ect. The road cars are only limited by the tyres they use.
 
So, what about the 800 POUNDS??

Not pounds sterling, the 380kg heavier the Enzo and MC12 are then the race versions, or the C6R for that matter.

Have you noticed that no one is trying to back you up here? You're fooling yourself if you think that 800 pounds will not make a difference in cars that are highly tuned and similarly powerful.
 
The fact that it's a bit heavier doesn't really matter, the bottom line is it's faster than the MCC on the same tyres which in turn was faster than the C6R.
 
What about the height, length, width, track, tread, wheelbase, torsional rigidity, flexional rigidity, centre of gravity, drivetrain efficiency and unsprung mass to sprung mass ratio?

*snores*

Your question only makes sense "all things being equal". All things are NOT equal.
 
live4speed
The fact that it's a bit heavier doesn't really matter, the bottom line is it's faster than the MCC on the same tyres which in turn was faster than the C6R.
800 pounds is not a BIT! It's almost the entire weight of the ariel atom! 1/3 the weight of your beloved TVRs! That is a 33% weight penalty over the C6R or the MCC. It is not a possibility, unless like BMW The Maserati Road car has an anti-gravity device.

Famine
What about the height, length, width, track, tread, wheelbase, torsional rigidity, flexional rigidity, centre of gravity, drivetrain efficiency and unsprung mass to sprung mass ratio?

*snores*

Your question only makes sense "all things being equal". All things are NOT equal.
I'd love to get my hands on that info. Then we could put this whole "the Enzo's chassis is superior to the C6R's" debate to rest. Sadly, that probably isn't gong ot happen.
 
skicrush
800 pounds is not a BIT! It's almost the entire weight of the ariel atom! 1/3 the weight of your beloved TVRs! That is a 33% weight penalty over the C6R or the MCC. It is not a possibility, unless like BMW The Maserati Road car has an anti-gravity device.

The Enzo is 28% heavier than the Corvette C6-R. The Corvette C6-R is 15% lighter...


However, let me put this in different terms.

The Peugeot 205 1.9 GTi has fractionally less power than my car does. It also weighs about 200kg less (and my car's only 2400lb). On a track there's no match. My car is lower, wider, has a wider track and tread, a longer wheelbase, a lower centre of gravity, better suspension set up, a unibody construction for increased structural rigidity, lower unsprung-to-sprung mass ratio... I win. By a distance. But on power-to-weight ratios - and a 0-62mph sprint (though it's touch and go and would depend on the driver and the day) he wins.

I still LIKE the 205 GTi though.
 
Famine
The Enzo is 28% heavier than the Corvette C6-R. The Corvette C6-R is 15% lighter...


However, let me put this in different terms.

The Peugeot 205 1.9 GTi has fractionally less power than my car does. It also weighs about 200kg less (and my car's only 2400lb). On a track there's no match. My car is lower, wider, has a wider track and tread, a longer wheelbase, a lower centre of gravity, better suspension set up, a unibody construction for increased structural rigidity, lower unsprung-to-sprung mass ratio... I win. By a distance. But on power-to-weight ratios - and a 0-62mph sprint (though it's touch and go and would depend on the driver and the day) he wins.

I still LIKE the 205 GTi though.

Close enough. It certainly makes my point though, don't you think?

[edit] Well, those are great points. Too bad those ROAD CARS don't have the advantages you're talking about over the RACE CARS. The MC12 is not fster than an MCC OR a C6R. Which race car is faster only requires a look at the fast laps where they've raced together. And the vette was faster at Sebring.
 
Why are you arguing that the MC12 is faster than the MCC when it's a fact. It's also fact that that the MCC was faster than the C6R, so if the MC12 is faster than a car already faster than the C6R it's logical to conclude it will be faster than the C6R also. Like I said, the race cars are subject to far more restrictions performance wise than the road cars are subject to.

EDIT, The MCC was and is capable of being the fastes GT car in the field, unfortuantely becaseu the car is too wide I believe (which gives it an advantage cornering over the C6R whcih is also there on the MC12) it was handicapped further which has left it so it's not dominating.
 
live4speed
Why are you arguing that the MC12 is faster than the MCC when it's a fact. It's also fact that that the MCC was faster than the C6R, so if the MC12 is faster than a car already faster than the C6R it's logical to conclude it will be faster than the C6R also. Like I said, the race cars are subject to far more restrictions performance wise than the road cars are subject to.

Where? In your mind? The MC12 weighs 3150 pounds. The MCC weighs 2425 pounds. Both breathe through the same restrictor, per Motor Trend. How is it faster? I'm not even talking corvette anymore.

And if they're SO fast, why do the vettes keep winning? Even on 2 hour 45 minute races? They can't hold together for 3 hours? No, they lost Mid-Ohio by 3 laps. Nothing broke. They just LOST. Why? They are SLOWER.
 
They don't use the same restrictors, the MCC has less power, more drag and less electronic interferrence helping keep the car going fast round corners, the biggest advantage the MCC has is the tyres, take thoes away and you're left with the same car with more drag and less electronic aid. You seem to be missing everytime I say, GT cars are being deliberately made slower year after year, they are subject to far more restrictions than a road car. While generally this is negated by the technology of the race cars suspension ect, the MC12 IS almost the same, but with less restrictions.
live4speed
The MCC was and is capable of being the fastes GT car in the field, unfortuantely becaseu the car is too wide I believe (which gives it an advantage cornering over the C6R whcih is also there on the MC12) it was handicapped further which has left it so it's not dominating.

You're dragging this thread off topic here. We really need to get back to the Vette.
 
live4speed
They don't use the same restrictors, the MCC has less power, more drag and less electronic interferrence helping keep the car going fast round corners, the biggest advantage the MCC has is the tyres, take thoes away and you're left with the same car with more drag and less electronic aid. You seem to be missing everytime I say, GT cars are being deliberately made slower year after year, they are subject to far more restrictions than a road car. While generally this is negated by the technology of the race cars suspension ect, the MC12 IS almost the same, but with less restrictions.


You're dragging this thread off topic here. We really need to get back to the Vette.
The MCC meets the LM weight restrictions (2425 pounds). The MC12 weighs 3150. How is that the same car?
 
The MCC now weighs more than the C6R it also has compromised aerodynamics. The MCC and the MC12 are the same car, they share almost all the same components, the MCC has been stripped out thats all, it has no luxuries, a single lightweight seat no radio, less electronic equipment ect. Thoes things do not make them different cars.
 
live4speed
The MCC now weighs more than the C6R it also has compromised aerodynamics. The MCC and the MC12 are the same car, they share almost all the same components, the MCC has been stripped out thats all, it has no luxuries, a single lightweight seat no radio, less electronic equipment ect. Thoes things do not make them different cars.
THE MC12 WEIGHS 725 POUNDS MORE THAN THE MCC! HOW CAN IT BE FASTER???
 
It has more power, different gears, less drag and the weight difference isn't that big, it's over 100lbs less than that, it's closer to 550lbs difference sometimes less depending on if extra ballast that gets given for some races, (not 100% sure if they do that in the ALMS but they do in the FIA GT championship).
 
You guys are really funny arguing about different weights and how it can or can't be faster.
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I know, weight isn't everything, besides that I think I have made a small mistake, I think the MC12 is only faster than the MCC on the same tyres AFTER it was handicapped not before when it would beat anything else on the grid. Still damn impressive though.
 
Race cars have different gears every day of the week. They arent a static component of the car, like they are ina road car.

I give up. You have no numbers, just your own opinion. You can't even quote any kind of source, besides YOURSELF! NO lap times, no solid numbers comparing the cars, nothing. I am resigned to the fact that I just need to wait until such a time as the Blue Devil is really produced, and then just look at the lap times. As far as the MCC being slower than the MC12, I guess all I can do is just take your word for it. Since that's all you've given me. As for the C6R being slower than the MCC? I can PROVE otherwise, so your OPINION means nothing. And what aero handicap? You mean, so it can abide by the rules? The same rules the vette was built to conform to? The vette is faster, end of story. Will the Blue Devil be faster? I guess we have to just wait and see.
 
It was simulated they dopn't test race cars on road tyres ever, it was reported in either AutoCar or Auto Express earlier in the year, theres the source for the MC12 being faster than the MCC but it was done after the car was handicapped. And the handicap means the car runs a smaller wing and a smaller splitter and has more weight than the other cars, it's a handicap not a modification to regulations. It did exeed regulation in one area and that was it's size, but it was allowed to run, it kicked arse and then the other teams had it handicapped. Before the handicaps it was the fastest car out there, and notably so. You can only prove that the C6R is faster than the handicapped MCC. Next season we'll be able to look at the time the MCC ran at tracks it raced without the handicap and then see what times C6R can do. Sure I'm speculating a little here, but the MCC was quite a lot better than the rest of the field and I see that being more of a difference than what the C6R is running now.
 
Anyway, we might as well leave this line of discussion at that, theres nothing else to be said until theres more info on the Blue devil as you said.
 
I guess this is the real point I'm trying to make:

The Z06, according to it's numbers, ought to be faster than a Porsche GT2, Ford GT, F430, etc. So, if that is the Z06's level of performance, who or what is it still playing second fiddle to?

“Let’s just say [Corvette chief engineer] Dave Hill is not a guy who likes playing second fiddle to any high-performance car on the road,” said Lutz. “My guess is we’re going to find a way to do something beyond the Z06, that would be at a much higher price point, and which would compete with some of the leading high-performance cars of the world.”

CGT, Enzo, MB Mclaren SLR, Murcielago, Zonda, Mclaren F1. And that list gets shorter by one car for every second under 7:46 the Z06 posts. What do you think the VP of the largest car company in the world considers "some of the leading high-performance cars of the world.”? Without going back to the whole race car chassis debate, don't you think, whatever its shortfalls, that the C6R with an extra 50 or 100 hp could out do the MCC? So why is it so far fetched to think that the Blue Devil could be designed to compete with the Enzo or Carrera GT? Performance wise, what else could it be designed to compete with? When the Z06 has already set the bar so high?

Don't just take my word for it. Take a Z06 in GT4. Give it about 600 horses, and reduce the weight to 1318. If you can--I don't know if it's possible. Buy it stock, and don't touch the tires. You may have to add some weight back, but just put it right in the middle--that ought to be about fair. Now, this won't take ANY of the other improvements into account--just the weight and power, since they're easily quantifiable.

I tried it to approximate the new Z06 with 502 horses (that was as close as I could come), and i did it with the race tranny and without, since the new Z06 can do 62-63 in first, and the stock C5 Z06 tranny only does like 45-50 in first (though, since it's the result of a higher redline, there really is no good compromise besides just leaving it stock). My best time (for 502 hp) was 7:38. Yes, its a game, and I dont' have to worry about my life, but I'm not even terribly familiar with the ring yet, and that's what I got. So, I think a time of 7:40 in real life by an experienced driver is entirely possible. Some experienced drivers on some of the vette forums (as in, they have owned LM race teams that have gone to Lemans) believe it can do a 7:37. I almost did, and I don't even know the track that well (though that was a great lap!).

Try it out! Give it something over 600 hp, reduce the weight, and try it. Then tell me what it can and can't do.

AND THEY HAD ALL BETTER BE IN GT5 OR I'M NOT EVEN BUYING A PS3!
 
GT4 is not the most realistic simulation of whats possible at the ring, it simulates some stock road cars well enough but once you mod them they can't be compared to the real deal. Thats why you see such fast laps floating about, I can get 7'30 with the SLR stock, the best thats done is 7'40 and I'm not as good a driver as the guy that did that. Nice idea though and I might try it out for fun see if I can beat you're time ;). I personally see that comment as no more than marketing, sure it will be fast, but I don't see a thinner car with metal chassisand a higher center of gravity competing with the Enzo. We'll have to wait and see won't we.
 
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