*** New Corvette Z06 ***

[Driftster]

It's pretty much the same reason skylines are so costly in the us...
exclusivity....

Japan has it's "martyr" cars and they can charge alot for them ..

We got that same thing goin on.

 

[FAOLIU05]

The C5 Z06 was basically the standard for the base C6.

The best confirmed time any C5 Z06 ran was 8'18, achieved by the Commemorative Edtion (405hp). The best confirmed time any base C5 Corvette (340hp w/ Automatic) ran was 8'40.

So as we can see, there is a pretty big gap between the base model C5 and the C5 Z06. There has always been a significant difference in performance between the two lines of Corvette.

Knowing this, I think we should expect not just a mere 10 second difference at the N-ring (a time the C6 Z51 would probably match), but I think we should expect at least a 15-20 second difference. I bet the C6 Z06 can beat the Mercielago at least.

 

[Dave A]

ACtually, since the base C6 has had it's performance upped pretty significantly, you'll notice a much smaller difference in track performance than in the past, a 10 second improvment round the ring would seem more than reasonable, if it can do more then fair play to Chevy but the difference between models won't be nearly as big as in the C5's.

 

[Swift]

ACtually, since the base C6 has had it's performance upped pretty significantly, you'll notice a much smaller difference in track performance than in the past, a 10 second improvment round the ring would seem more than reasonable, if it can do more then fair play to Chevy but the difference between models won't be nearly as big as in the C5's.

I'll have to agree. Besides the extra 100hp, what is the difference between the base and the Z06. From a performance standpoint? I bet that was covered in an earlier part of this thread wasn't it?

 

[skicrush]

Well, even die hards on some of the vette forums I frequent dont' expect much more than mid 40's. That darn law of diminishing returns. Some, like myself, are hoping for 7:39 or 7:40, but I think that's really pushing it--possible, but really pushing it. But there is one guy that used to be a partner in a LM race team with 2 cars (P1, but back in '97 before it was called P1) who is adamant that it is capable of a 7:37. A time of 7:40 would make it faster than EVERYTHING besides the CGT and Radical. I guess time will tell. It's over there right now, but no one knows when we'll get the time.

Differences from the stock C6? Much larger rubber, hence wider car, way bigger (and better) brakes, stiffer suspension, stiffer chassis, marginally lighter, higher redline, besides the 505 hp and 475 torque. It ought to be AT LEAST 10 sec faster. The real benefit the vette has over the other cars on this list is that it puts out a lot more torque, and the torque curve is TONS flatter. It will pull harder wherever it is in its rev range.

Why does torque matter as much (or more) than hp? Hp makes you go fast--torque makes your tires spin. I don't think this relationship is exactly correct, but the general idea I believe goes something like this. Torque x rpm=hp. So, torque can actually be declining, but as long as the rpms go up faster than your torque drops off, your hp continues to go up. Race cars have close gearing that keeps the rpms in the ideal range, and they shift so fast that it doesn't matter if they have 4 gear changes instead of just one or 2. But road cars are different, since most of them you still shift yourself. On top of that, torque is really what drives acceleration. And with 180 corners to accelerate out of, that's important.

 

[skicrush]

I know, I should have edited, but this deserves it's own post.
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102690
If I was a supercar manufacturer, I'd be cowering in a corner.

 

[FAOLIU05]

OMG! OMG! Blue Devil is teh l337!

 

[Famine]

Interesting quote...

Bob Lutz: "“Let’s just say Dave Hill is not a guy who likes playing second fiddle to any high-performance car on the road. My guess is we’re going to find a way to do something beyond the Z06, that would be at a much higher price point, and which would compete with some of the leading high-performance cars of the world.”

That would imply that GM don't think the Z06 competes with some of the leading hih-performance cars of the world...

 

[FAOLIU05]

Well, even die hards on some of the vette forums I frequent dont' expect much more than mid 40's. That darn law of diminishing returns. Some, like myself, are hoping for 7:39 or 7:40, but I think that's really pushing it--possible, but really pushing it. But there is one guy that used to be a partner in a LM race team with 2 cars (P1, but back in '97 before it was called P1) who is adamant that it is capable of a 7:37. A time of 7:40 would make it faster than EVERYTHING besides the CGT and Radical. I guess time will tell. It's over there right now, but no one knows when we'll get the time.

You know, if the Vette meets with our expectations, than I would love to see people just try and say the Corvette isn't **** in comparison to any sportscar/supercar.

 

[FAOLIU05]

Check out this video...

2006 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Test Video

 

[skicrush]

Interesting quote...

Bob Lutz: "“Let’s just say Dave Hill is not a guy who likes playing second fiddle to any high-performance car on the road. My guess is we’re going to find a way to do something beyond the Z06, that would be at a much higher price point, and which would compete with some of the leading high-performance cars of the world.”

That would imply that GM don't think the Z06 competes with some of the leading hih-performance cars of the world...

That is interesting, but I would take that to mean the Carrera GT and Enzo. I think the Z06 has the lesser supercars covered (Porsche GT2, F430, Ford GT, Murcielago). 600 hp (and since it's a supercharger, it should have close to 600 lb/ft of torque, too) puts it right next to the CGT and Enzo, and the torque would be over 170 MORE than the CGT. And 2900 lbs would be about 150 lbs less than the CGT, and 350 lbs less than the enzo. I'd say it will do pretty well against any car you can drive on a public road. And it won't need fitted luggage!!

 

[Dave A]

The Enzo is built with Carbon monocoque, it's underpinnings are far more like a racers than a road cars, no matter how much power you put into the Vette, it's chassis is still only going to capable of so much and it's not as advanced a chassis as you get in the CGT or Enzo. It may be a capable car but I think you're jumping the gun here, theres a vast gulf in technology between a car like the Enzo and a car like the new Z06, and the ammount of work needed to bridge that gap is immense and probably non-profitable.

 

[///M-Spec]

On top of that, torque is really what drives acceleration. And with 180 corners to accelerate out of, that's important.

Sorry for being picky, but torque does not drive acceleration because torque has no concept of time, which you would need to determine acceleration. All the torque in the world isn't going to do any good unless you have RPMs to go with it, thereby creating horsepower.


M

 

[skicrush]

The Enzo is built with Carbon monocoque, it's underpinnings are far more like a racers than a road cars, no matter how much power you put into the Vette, it's chassis is still only going to capable of so much and it's not as advanced a chassis as you get in the CGT or Enzo. It may be a capable car but I think you're jumping the gun here, theres a vast gulf in technology between a car like the Enzo and a car like the new Z06, and the ammount of work needed to bridge that gap is immense and probably non-profitable.

Well, that chassis seemed to work fine for the people that won the GTS class at Lemans this year. I don't see why a C6R detuned to 600 hp would be inferior to the Enzo. And it is the same chassis that the C6 uses. Will 300 pounds less and 200 hp & torque more give you a ring time 28 seconds better? I guess I can hope. But for $35k more than the Z06, I think they're doing more than just slapping a blower and some CF panels on a Z06.

I wish they'd just post the ring times so we could all stop specualting.

 

[Dave A]

Because the MC12 is better than the C6R and the Enzo uses the same chassis as the MC12, 28k more isn't enough to spend on ripping out the cars internals and replacing them with a chassis similar to that of an Enzo. It's a nice thought and maybe they can find other areas to try and make up the difference, but with todays technology I don't think they can do it profitably.

 

[Famine]

Well, that chassis seemed to work fine for the people that won the GTS class at Lemans this year. I don't see why a C6R detuned to 600 hp would be inferior to the Enzo.

Just to remind you that both the Ferrari 550 AND Aston Martin DBR9 returned faster lap times than the C6R around Le Mans this year. The C6R won because the Aston broke - having whipped the C6R soundly at Sebring 12 hour earlier in the season.

 

[skicrush]

You call it "whipped" when the C6Rs had mechanical problems similar to the Aston's problems?

Battered but unbroken, Corvette Racing overcame adversity to finish second and third today in the GT1 class at Sebring International Raceway with the new Corvette C6.R race cars. After dominating the first eight hours of the Mobil 1 Twelve Hours of Sebring, the final third of the 12-hour race became a test of endurance for the Corvette Racing team as both cars were damaged in accidents.

The No. 3 Compuware Corvette C6.R driven by Ron Fellows, Johnny O'Connell and Max Papis finished one lap behind the GT1 class winner after a brake rotor failure sent the car into a tire barrier. The No. 4 Compuware Corvette of Oliver Gavin, Olivier Beretta and Jan Magnussen claimed third place with six minutes remaining in the race after extensive repairs following hard contact with another car.

So, they were slower when they were running on crappy 93 octane gas that the Astons were designed to run on, but not the vettes? You call that racing fuel? You can buy that at any gas station. I'd say the vettes did better at Lemans and overcame more than the Astons did at Sebring. You'll notice that the Vettes had the fast lap at Sebring, too. At least things broke and they weren't so poorly engineered they couldn't handle the heat.

OK, here is the rundown on torque and power (hp, watts, Nm/s, whichever).I got this stuff at http://science.howstuffworks.com/fpte.htm "Torque is a force that tends to rotate or turn things." From the torque page, and this is from the power page: "You can multiply the amount of torque in Newton-meters by the rotational speed in order to find the power in watts. Another way to look at power is as a unit of speed (m/s) combined with a unit of force (N)."

So, power has nothing to do inherently with acceleration. F=MA, or F/M=A. So, acceleration is determined by the force you apply and your weight. And in cars, torque is the force you apply. hp or power takes that into account, but it certainly isn't the whole story. A car with half the torque and twice the rpm will have the same power. But one will acclerate twice as fast as the other, assuming they have the same weight.

Of course, these are of necessity engine numbers, and do not take gearing into account. But that is the general idea.

 

[Famine]

So, they were slower when they were running on crappy 93 octane gas that the Astons were designed to run on, but not the vettes? You call that racing fuel? You can buy that at any gas station.

Isn't that KIND of the point?

You're arguing the case for a detuned C6R road car being as fast as an Enzo/MC12/Carrera GT. If it can't use normal petrol, it won't be going anywhere...

I'd say the vettes did better at Lemans

We were talking about lap times. Who had the best lap time at Le Mans from the GT1-leading C6R, DB9R and 550?

I don't think they can do it profitably.

If anything, this thread should have shown you that the Corvette could have a 4hp engine (as long as it was a 5-litre+ V8) and be made of recycled aborted foetuses and veals, and drive down the street firing VX-gas capsules into primary schools and whist drives and STILL the fanboys would proclaim it the rebirth of Christ and pay whatever GM asked.

 

[Swift]

If anything, this thread should have shown you that the Corvette could have a 4hp engine (as long as it was a 5-litre+ V8) and be made of recycled aborted foetuses and veals, and drive down the street firing VX-gas capsules into primary schools and whist drives and STILL the fanboys would proclaim it the rebirth of Christ and pay whatever GM asked.

A little too graphic, but somewhat true.

 

[FAOLIU05]

If anything, this thread should have shown you that the Corvette could have a 4hp engine (as long as it was a 5-litre+ V8) and be made of recycled aborted foetuses and veals, and drive down the street firing VX-gas capsules into primary schools and whist drives and STILL the fanboys would proclaim it the rebirth of Christ and pay whatever GM asked.

I guess the NIssan and Mazda sub-forums would show you the same kind of enthusiasm. 👎

That was a pretty ignorant comment. Stop posting inflammatory flame-bait.

 

[Famine]

I guess the NIssan and Mazda sub-forums would show you the same kind of enthusiasim. 👎

Probably, but they aren't dedicated to the blinkered onanism of the companies. They are more areas for people who actually OWN those cars to discuss things about them.

That was a pretty ignorant comment.

Guess again.

A little too graphic, but somewhat true.

Stop posting inflammatory flame-bait.

It's only inflammatory if you're dumb enough to rise to it.

You so in love with the Corvette that not only can you not see anything past it but you can't see the vehicle's faults. This does not put you in a position to be objective. You are a fanboy, plain and simple.

Nevertheless, since you've already shown yourself to be a liar, I have no interest in communicating with you whatsoever - unless you feel like answering the points (another thing you've consistantly failed to do) mentioned to skicrush in an objective fashion. If not, please stop addressing posts to me.

 

[skicrush]

Isn't that KIND of the point?

You're arguing the case for a detuned C6R road car being as fast as an Enzo/MC12/Carrera GT. If it can't use normal petrol, it won't be going anywhere...

We were talking about lap times. Who had the best lap time at Le Mans from the GT1-leading C6R, DB9R and 550?

Well, since I'm talking about what it is DESIGNED to run on, YES. The vettes were running with less power than normal due to the gas issue. When the DBR9 and MC12 were running on the better gas here in the states at Sebring (NO handicap), the vettes were faster. So, all things being equal, the C6Rs are faster. And when this translates to the road cars, they will all run on the same gas, and again, all things will be equal. I'm not saying they will be faster. I just hope they will. And I'm stating that the chassis is not a handicap, which was all I intended with the original point I was discussing with live4speed.

If anything, this thread should have shown you that the Corvette could have a 4hp engine (as long as it was a 5-litre+ V8) and be made of recycled aborted foetuses and veals, and drive down the street firing VX-gas capsules into primary schools and whist drives and STILL the fanboys would proclaim it the rebirth of Christ and pay whatever GM asked.

Really? Where did this thread show me how insanely, stupidly loyal vette fanboys are? Yeah, the vette is a horrible car. 500 hp, and better gas milage than anything with even 300 hp.
Did you miss the ZR-1 fiasco? Sorry, but vette fanboys WON'T pay whatever GM asks. But you'd better believe that they think they can sell a car for $100k that will match $450K+ cars.

You're usually so reasonable. All this post has shown me is that you're in a bad mood today.

[edit] And FAOLIU05, I'm not saying Famine's going to like this post, but this is how we do it.

 

[Famine]

Really? Where did this thread show me how insanely, stupidly loyal vette fanboys are? Yeah, the vette is a horrible car. 500 hp, and better gas milage than anything with even 300 hp.

That's precisely what I'm talking about.

Where have I mentioned that the Corvette (any of them) is rubbish? Where? Go on - 12,000 posts. Find it.

Just because I don't happen to agree that the Corvette is the bestest thing evererererer, or think you're overstretching yourself with hypotheticals which have little basis in reality, it doesn't mean I think it's rubbish.

Be objective.

Your "all things being equal" theory doesn't work either. I ask again, which of the three GT1 front runners had the fastest lap at Le Mans - the DBR9, the C6R or the 550?

 

[Dave A]

Don't you think it's a little wishful claiming that Chevrolet will make a Corvette based on the current models for around 100k that will be able to keep up with an Enzo. You're talking about a huge, huge gulf here, everything about an Enzo is more advanced than a Vette from the aerodynamics to the chassis, engine and so on. You'd need to change everything about the Vette to be able to compete, it's in a different group of cars. Look at a car like the Hennessey Vipers, none of them stand a chance against an Enzo on a circuit that consists of more than banked left corners. They can have 800bhp upwards, and why will they lose, because they can't corner as fast. The same will go for a Z06 or a more powerful Z06, it lacks the aerodynamics of the Enzo, the stiffness, the suspension ect, the Enzo is out of it's league just like the Enzo is out of the Cerbera Speed 12's league .

 

[skicrush]

Objective? What about the veal and fetus thing firing off VX gas? And getting "whipped" when they lost by ONE lap, and the Astons lost Lemans by, what, 20 laps?

And, why doesn't the all things being equal reasoning work? Lower octane gas hinders a performance car's performance. Higher octane gas doesn't. At Lemans, running on lower octane gas than it was designed to run on, the vette was slower. The DBR9 set the fastest lap for the class. At Sebring, the vettes ran the fastest lap.

So, I'd say that all things being equal, the C6R is faster.

Don't you think it's a little wishful claiming that Chevrolet will make a Corvette based on the current models for around 100k that will be able to keep up with an Enzo. You're talking about a huge, huge gulf here, everything about an Enzo is more advanced than a Vette from the aerodynamics to the chassis, engine and so on. You'd need to change everything about the Vette to be able to compete, it's in a different group of cars. Look at a car like the Hennessey Vipers, none of them stand a chance against an Enzo on a circuit that consists of more than banked left corners. They can have 800bhp upwards, and why will they lose, because they can't corner as fast. The same will go for a Z06 or a more powerful Z06, it lacks the aerodynamics of the Enzo, the stiffness, the suspension ect, the Enzo is out of it's league just like the Enzo is out of the Cerbera Speed 12's league .

No, I don't think it's wishful thinking. The C6R would spank the enzo, and IT costs less. Could Chevy build a road version for less than $100k? I don't know, but the know-how is there to build a faster car. On the SAME CHASSIS. And the C6R's suspension can't be THAT much more expensive than the Z06's. The components are usually pretty much the same--just set up differently. And power is not a problem.

I guess I just don't see what the challenge is? They have the parts. The question is, can they do it for less than $100? It sounds like they've looked at it, and they think they can.

 

[Dave A]

I'd say that the race cars won't have much to do with what the road cars can keep up with. The Aston were faster at LeMans but they didn't win, the Vettes were faster at Sebring but they didn't win. Hell I'm thinking having a slower car might not be so bad after all . In fairness though, both racing programmes are too new to start screaming over anything yet, give tham a full season and thenyou'll have seen enough of both of them to make a better judgment on them.

 

[FAOLIU05]

The C6 Corvette has better gas mileage than any car around/in its class. It has better gas mileage than even cars with less than 300hp.

Gas Mileage (mpg):
2005 Chevrolet C6 Corvette - 19/28
2003 Dodge Viper SRT-10 - 10/20
2006 Dodge Viper SRT-10 Coupe - 12/20
2005 Ford GT - 14/21
2003 Ford SVT Mustang Cobra - 16/24
2004 Chrysler Crossfire SRT-6 - 17/25
2005 Aston Martin V12 Vanquish S - 11/17
2004 Lamborghini Mercielago Roadster - 9/13
2003 Lamborghini Gallardo - 10/17
2004 Porsche 911 GT2 - 13/20
2004 Porsche 911 GT3 - 15/23
2003 Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale - 10/16
2005 Nissan 350Z - 20/26
2004 Mazda RX8 - 18/24
2004 Honda S2000 - 20/26

It's also the quickest/fastest car under $50,000...

Nurburgring Lap Times:
Chevrolet C6 Corvette - 7'56
Lotec Porsche 993 Turbo (600hp w/ Ring Suspension) - 7'57
Porsche 911 Carrera S (997 w/ Performance Chasis) - 7'59
Porsche 911 Carrera S (997 w/ Sport PASM Setting) - 8'02
Porsche 911 Carrera S (997 w/ Regular PASM Setting) - 8'05
Porsche 996 GT3 - 8'03
Porsche 993 GT3 - 8'12
Porsche 911 Carrera - 8'15
RUF 911 CTR 2 (520hp) - 8'15
Lamborghini Diablo GT (567hp) - 8'04
Ferrari 575M Maranello F1 (515hp) - 8'05
Mercedes-Benz SL55 AMG (493hp) - 8'06
Ferrari 550 Maranello (485hp) - 8'07
Ferrari 360 Modena (395hp) - 8'09
Lamborghini Diablo SV (510hp) - 8'09
Dodge Viper SRT-10 (500hp) - 8'10
Aston Martin V12 Vanquish (460hp) - 8'17

The Chevrolet C6 Corvette also has the highest top speed, quickest 0-60, quickest 0-100, and highest slalom speed of any car under $50,000. Not only that, but it looks damn nice.

So as you can see, there is a lot to be a "fanboy" about. Sorry that the Corvette whips the **** out of cars costing 4x's it's own MSRP in just about every aspect of performance. And sorry that I'm a big fan of a high, high-performance sportscar that middle-class people can actually afford.

Thats what the Corvette is all about now. Chevrolet is bringing you something other companies would sell at $100,000 for cheaper than half that price. Thats why I'm so crazy about them. Thats why a lot of people are Vette fanatics.

From a consumer standpoint, the Vette is something to rave about and be a fan of. This $50k car goes a long ways in performance. So if anything, you must be damn ignorant if you don't see what us Fanboys see.

The pros out weigh the cons, which is why I don't waste my time looking at them.

 

[skicrush]

I'd say that the race cars won't have much to do with what the road cars can keep up with. The Aston were faster at LeMans but they didn't win, the Vettes were faster at Sebring but they didn't win. Hell I'm thinking having a slower car might not be so bad after all . In fairness though, both racing programmes are too new to start screaming over anything yet, give tham a full season and thenyou'll have seen enough of both of them to make a better judgment on them.

There is a LOT of truth to that. Oliver Gavin said that at Lemans, the Astons were egging them on to go faster, but they didn't because endurance racing isn't all about who goes the fastest, and they didn't want to push too hard and brake something.

Oh, and I replied to the $100,000 question up above, since it would have been a double post when I started it.

And this has all now COMPLETELY overshadowed the lovely chat about hp and torque that Mspec and I were just starting.

 

[Famine]

Lower octane gas hinders a performance car's performance. Higher octane gas doesn't.

Do you want to take a second guess?

It's also the quickest/fastest car under $50,000...

Nurburgring Lap Times:
Chevrolet C6 Corvette - 7'56

Do you want to take a second guess?

7'55 - Caterham R500 Superlight

 

[Dave A]

It's not the quickest car under 50k, the Radical is. Again the Radical has a faster 0-60 and 0-100 and a faster Slalom speed. On top of that, theres so many cars not on that list or that haven't been tested at the ring you can't come to any set conclusions. It's a great car for Americans, in other places it's too expensive and loses it's bargain-ness. This whole Ring lap times talk has been covered not too long ago and we can go round in circles if you like, we can cover it every other day, but you'll get the same responses from me, TVR, cheaper AND faster.

Back to the 0-60 and 0-100, you say it's faster than any car under 50k, I can name over 10 from the top of my head, and if you wanted it fair, I could say whats faster for less using UK prices since thats giving the debate a more global perspective and showing you what a bargain is and isn't over here, becasue the Vette isn't one.