*** New Corvette Z06 ***

[///M-Spec]

Without a doubt. There are tons of things I never took into consideration. In a nutshell, force times distance is work. Work over time is power. There are 2 ways to get more power from an engine. More force, or more distance (rpms). But we're WAY past acceleration. F=MA, or Acceleration = force over mass=Meter/sec^2 (a lot messier than 0-60 in x sec.). You have to get torque at the rear wheels, to take gearing into effect and get the real amount of torque reaching the road, but acceleration is all about weight and torque.

Ah good. No replies in a few days, which means I can safely continue hijacking this thread.

I agree with everything in that paragraph except for the last sentance. Torque is force over distance, but it is not the same thing as work. They use the same units, but are not interchangable. 1 lb-ft of torque is 1 pound of force acting on a point 1 foot away through an imaginary (massless) lever. It is not the same thing as moving a 1 lb object 1 foot in some direction. That's why you can't interchange torque with force the formula you used earlier.

I do agree torque at the drive wheels is what's important, BUT the way you phrase the statement can be misleading.

Think about this: there are two engines. Let's assume for sake of simplicity they have the exact same dimensions and weight. They have the following torque curves.

Engine 1

200 @ 2000
300 @ 3500 < peak torque
240 @ 5000
230 @ 5500 < peak hp
200 @ 5700 < redline

Engine 2

110 @ 2000
140 @ 5000
160 @ 6500 < peak torque
158 @ 8000 < peak hp
150 @ 8500 < redline

Engine 1 makes TWICE the amount of torque at it's torque peak of 3500 RPM. But at the red line, it makes 241 hp.

Engine 2 makes it's seemingly flacid peak torque of 160 at 6500 RPM. But it revs all the way to 8000 at which it is making the same 241 hp that Engine 1 makes.

If you put these engines into identical RWD cars, and change the final drive to suit the power curve of each motor, I submit both cars will accelerate pretty much at the same rate.

The bottom line is torque at the crankshaft is misleading, because you don't take RPMs into account. Torque at the wheels is useful, but why not just calculate for horsepower at the wheels? When some get their car dynoed, they are interested in WHP and the shape of their curve, not WT.


M

 

[Swift]

Ah good. No replies in a few days, which means I can safely continue hijacking this thread.

I agree with everything in that paragraph except for the last sentance. Torque is force over distance, but it is not the same thing as work. They use the same units, but are not interchangable. 1 lb-ft of torque is 1 pound of force acting on a point 1 foot away through an imaginary (massless) lever. It is not the same thing as moving a 1 lb object 1 foot in some direction. That's why you can't interchange torque with force the formula you used earlier.

I do agree torque at the drive wheels is what's important, BUT the way you phrase the statement can be misleading.

Think about this: there are two engines. Let's assume for sake of simplicity they have the exact same dimensions and weight. They have the following torque curves.

Engine 1

200 @ 2000
300 @ 3500 < peak torque
240 @ 5000
230 @ 5500 < peak hp
200 @ 5700 < redline

Engine 2

110 @ 2000
140 @ 5000
160 @ 6500 < peak torque
158 @ 8000 < peak hp
150 @ 8500 <redline

Engine 1 makes TWICE the amount of torque at it's torque peak of 3500 RPM. But at the red line, it makes 241 hp.

Engine 2 makes it's seemingly flacid peak torque of 160 at 6500 RPM. But it revs all the way to 8000 at which it is making the same 241 hp that Engine 1 makes.

If you put these engines into identical RWD cars, and change the final drive to suit the power curve of each motor, I submit both cars will accelerate pretty much at the same rate.

The bottom line is torque at the crankshaft is misleading, because you don't take RPMs into account. Torque at the wheels is useful, but why not just calculate for horsepower at the wheels? When some get their car dynoed, they are interested in WHP and the shape of their curve, not WT.


M

Thanks for that explaination. I've always found that to be somewhat confusing.

 

[skicrush]

Ah good. No replies in a few days, which means I can safely continue hijacking this thread.

I agree with everything in that paragraph except for the last sentance. Torque is force over distance, but it is not the same thing as work. They use the same units, but are not interchangable. 1 lb-ft of torque is 1 pound of force acting on a point 1 foot away through an imaginary (massless) lever. It is not the same thing as moving a 1 lb object 1 foot in some direction. That's why you can't interchange torque with force the formula you used earlier.

I do agree torque at the drive wheels is what's important, BUT the way you phrase the statement can be misleading.

Think about this: there are two engines. Let's assume for sake of simplicity they have the exact same dimensions and weight. They have the following torque curves.

Engine 1

200 @ 2000
300 @ 3500 < peak torque
240 @ 5000
230 @ 5500 < peak hp
200 @ 5700 < redline

Engine 2

110 @ 2000
140 @ 5000
160 @ 6500 < peak torque
158 @ 8000 < peak hp
150 @ 8500 <redline

Engine 1 makes TWICE the amount of torque at it's torque peak of 3500 RPM. But at the red line, it makes 241 hp.

Engine 2 makes it's seemingly flacid peak torque of 160 at 6500 RPM. But it revs all the way to 8000 at which it is making the same 241 hp that Engine 1 makes.

If you put these engines into identical RWD cars, and change the final drive to suit the power curve of each motor, I submit both cars will accelerate pretty much at the same rate.

The bottom line is torque at the crankshaft is misleading, because you don't take RPMs into account. Torque at the wheels is useful, but why not just calculate for horsepower at the wheels? When some get their car dynoed, they are interested in WHP and the shape of their curve, not WT.


M

Looks like I took the same break you did.

OK, I totally agree with everything you've said. Torque is the accelerative force, but you are dead on--the gearing is what will make all the difference. More appropriate discussion would center around the characteristics of the torque curve--peak location, flatness, etc. The two cars you described above could be geared to be equal, but the car with the flatter curve would have the advantage. I guess we can say that this thread has been officially kidnapped!

 

[skicrush]

Unconfirmed reports that the Z06 pulled a 7:40 Nurburgring lap. Or rather, something that LOOKS like a Z06 DID pull a 7:40 ring lap. The Jury is still out on whether it was the Z06 or Blue Devil. Quite a bit of debate about it here (http://www.z06vette.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83807&page=1&pp=15), here(http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39466), and here (http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39698). From what I've read, the thread claiming the time is for the Blue Devil seems the most supsect. The others have other sources besides the mags. How would that change our debate?

 

[Dave A]

Not in the slightest until theres somthing official. Speculation is all well and good, but at the end of the day it's still speculation. At the end of the day, no one outside of Cheverolet knows what that car was running, I doubt it was a stock road Z06 since the car wears run flats, but then I'm just speculating and you'd be too no matter if you agreed or dissagreed.

 

[Joey D]

It would have to be the Blue Devil since they are testing it over there right now.

 

[Dave A]

That makes much more sense, still a good time (good's the best you'll get out of me for now ). Truthfully though, it's a very good time, not as fast as the top level cars, Carrera GT, Enzo, MC12 ect, but faster than the Murcielago and the group that runs in. Exactley what I predicted earlier in this thread or in that other one in the news forums.

 

[Joey D]

Plus its done by a car that will cost much less. I'm awaiting to hear the final word, the rumors say the Blue Devil will live but you never know.

 

[Dave A]

Hell, I never argued it wasn't good performance for the money, If I was American I'd be into Corvettes, they just cost a lot more over here.

 

[skicrush]

I don't think those times are from the blue devil. I think they are Z06 times, and most of the insiders do too (not that I'm an insider--I think it's the Z06 because the insiders have said that's what it is). No one has even confirmed that the blue devil is over there--all Autoweek said is that they thought they heard a supercharger whine, and who knows what the exhaust valves sound like when they're open at full blast at 150mph as it screams by? They have several Z06s there right now, and why would the time on the blue devil come out before the Z06, the car they are actually trying to sell right now?

For a car significantly under $100k, I think that's pretty impressive. And I am more than willing to eat my words should an "official" GM time come out that is different. But I think the Z06 is putting down the 7:40, and that the blue devil's time will be fast enough to worry the Enzo and the Carrera GT.

I mean, this doesn't sound like someone that's bluffing.

http://www.z06vette.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83807

I would have figured a thread with the actual time would have been started by now.

2 independant sources corroborated the time of 7m40s.

So much for the Blue Devil - that was the "regular" one setting those times.


I won't reveal them - but I am simply sharing what was revealed by some people who were at the 'Ring and saw for themselves

They have never passed bogus info before.

If he breaks silence about the C6 Z06 run, you'll get your proof. Until then - what if one of the many people who call Der Nurburgring "the office" where there to observe, and let's just say they "eavesdropped" the results.

 

[Dave A]

Err, read just above, not only that but it's a blue Vette. I call that BS, thats just info from a forum, I can say I won a gold at the last olympics and SOUND like I'm not bluffing, that was written by a Vette fanboy nothing more. The bottom line is, it's still all speculation, and apparently the Blue devil is over in Germany now, you do the math, blue car, same location as the Blue devil, as for the time coming out before, it's not official it's leaked info.

 

[Joey D]

It is for sure the Blue Devil is over there right now, not like I can confirm it since I don't have to go back to work for a week and a half. But I can almost promise you it is.

 

[skicrush]

I'm not trying to bring the fight here--it's raging in the corvette forums. Between people that know a lot more about it than we do. It's a great time for the Z06, or a meh time for the BD. But in any case--some corvette just posted a time of 7:40, better than any production car except the Carrera GT and the Radical, which is a purpose built Ring car. Faster than a McLAren F1. Faster than a Zonda.

 

[Dave A]

Blazin knows more about it than we do. It's a good time for the blue devil, it's the going rate for a 600Bhp car, if it had a wider track, lower CoG and a carbon chassis like the CGT it would be faster. It's not faster than a McLaren F1, I don't know what times you're looking but the F1's never ran an official time at the ring theres vid of it going round at pistonheads but the owner of the F1 was driving and he wasn't pushing the car, but it'd behind CGT though not that far behind. It's also not as fast as the CCR's time and theres plenty of cars that havn't lapped the ring that I'd put my money on being faster like the MC12, Enzo, Cerbera Speed 12 and many more.

 

[skicrush]

I don't know that that is exactly true. Blazin COULD know more about it, but then again, the sources that reported the time in the first place didn't come from within GM, so he wouldn't have any kind of advantage there. In addition, all this Blue devil talk is PURELY conjecture. someone saw a blue vette, and thought it sounded different. The rest is what the AW journalist thinks. Where did they get their numbers? The talk on the streets is that the BD will be TT'ed, and put out something more like 700 hp. Guys talking to GM engineers and the GM test guys they see out testing Z06s in the real world. Guys who just might BE GM engineers, but can't say since they'd get in trouble for posting stuff that isn't supposed to be published yet. Believe it or don't. 7:40 is ENTIRELY within the reach of the Z06. And 200 pounds less and 100-200 hp more is EASILY within reach of the CGT.

I know GT4 isn't perfect. But I got Ring times right close to 7:56 with a stock C5 Z06. And I got times right close to 7:40 with it modded to give it the right hp and weight for a C6 Z06. And I'll wager that I can get 7:30 times (or better) with a blue devil made to AW's spec. And that's with and without me driving (B-spec Bob). You said you were going to try it--what kind of results did you get?

 

[Dave A]

Why would Blazin be wrong, he works on the cars, if he knows the lue devil is over there, then who are we to doubt him. I think you're dissapointed with the time (though I don't see why) and you're hoping on that last thread that the BD will be a lot faster than that so you can turn around and say, look it's right up there with the CGT. Also word on the street is not word from GM, it's whats coming from GM and GM employee's that you need to be listening to. I never got round to trying the Z06 in GT4, tbh I forgot, I'll give it a go tonight and let you know, but that still doesn't prove or hint at the BD's performance for a large number of reasons.

 

[McLaren]

Its a Blue Devil at the 'Ring. End of story.

They saw a blue Z06 doing laps at the 'Ring?Its the Blue Devil which is just a Blue Z06 with some performance upgrades over the Z06.

 

[Joey D]

The Blue Devil is real, it isn't a myth. It is over in Germany right now. They shipped it out in the first part of June I believe. I saw parts of the car when it was being built, but never the motor. That was classified. The only question is wheather or not it will be in production come next year.

Rumor has it the Blue Devil will have a little devil head on it that looks like the Duke logo, which is rumored to be why they called it the Blue Devil.

 

[skicrush]

The only thing we have confirmed is that there was a 7:40 run by something wearing Z06 clothes. There could be a Blue Devil over there. But there are Z06s there too, and there's no way to tell which ran that time unless you ARE GM itself, or were there for the run and heard them talking about it. AW has no information other than rumors and speculation, which they have published. Similar to what I have written. My sources say it was a Z06, not a BD. Does it matter? Some, but not too much. The Z06 is coming out, and that would probably be the accepted time listed for it. The BD has a year of testing and improvement ahead of it before it has even a chance of being produced, so that time would hardly be a decent metric. By the way, GM NEVER has released an "official time" for any vette around the ring. Word on the street is all there is.

I will note that contrary to public opinion and popular belief, having this 7:40 be reputed to be the Blue Devil time works in GM's favor, but only as long as they confirm later that it was in fact the Z06's time (and faster than expected). Otherwise, they're slashing Z06 sales before it even takes off, since there's already a faster version in the pipeline.

 

[Dave A]

There are official timed runs for Vettes round the ring, it doesn't have to be a GM time to be official, it just has to be recorded and recognised and not a secret unless it's an official secret . Like I keep saying, no car based on the Vette's chassis will compete with cars like MC12 and CGT when it comes to cornering, they're in a different league and hence the different price. GM arn't saying anything about the time, it was leaked and leaked info isn't always in a companys best interests. And a Vette doing 7:40 at the ring will NOT have a negative impact on sales overall, if it means the Z06 buyer will opt for the BD instead, what does GM care. I think you're clutching at straws here, I really do. I'm feeling all Ferrari in GT4 cos they were in that vid all over again.

 

[skicrush]

There are official timed runs for Vettes round the ring, it doesn't have to be a GM time to be official, it just has to be recorded and recognised and not a secret unless it's an official secret . Like I keep saying, no car based on the Vette's chassis will compete with cars like MC12 and CGT when it comes to cornering, they're in a different league and hence the different price. GM arn't saying anything about the time, it was leaked and leaked info isn't always in a companys best interests. And a Vette doing 7:40 at the ring will NOT have a negative impact on sales overall, if it means the Z06 buyer will opt for the BD instead, what does GM care. I think you're clutching at straws here, I really do. I'm feeling all Ferrari in GT4 cos they were in that vid all over again.

Clutching at straws, huh? I think you're the one clutching at straws. There is more evidence that the 7:40 time is a stock Z06 than that it is from the BD, and it makes more sense, too, since that's what they went there to test in the first place, and the Z06 is the car that's coming out in the next few months. You're worried because of your claims that the vette's chassis is VASTLY inferior to the mighty Enzo.

And, you'll be more embarassed if YOU'RE wrong, than I will if I'M wrong. 7:40 is second fiddle to 4 production cars, most of which have price tags 5x the cost of the BD. That's way worse if it winds up being a "normal" Z06. That means the BD will have times EQUAL to cars you contend it can't play with.

And a time like that for the BD, pblished now, will have a negative impact on sales because buyers will wait for something that MAY NEVER materialize! They'd rather sell a Z06 today than a BD a year from now. It's not like thye're both available now, you know.

 

[Dave A]

I won't be embarassed if I'm wrong, I'll be suprised but not embarassed. Theres only a limited number of BD's set to be made if it all goes ahead, so they'll no doubt have all thoes sold before the first one's delivered.

 

[skicrush]

I won't be embarassed if I'm wrong, I'll be suprised but not embarassed. Theres only a limited number of BD's set to be made if it all goes ahead, so they'll no doubt have all thoes sold before the first one's delivered.

Right, so it would negatively impact Z06 sales for this info we've been playing with to actually be BD numbers.

The worst case scenario is this: They really ARE blue devil numbers, and many prospective Z06 buyers put off purchasing to buy the BD. As a result, Z06 sales are so low that they (GM) cut production of the Z06, and scrap the BD, having determined that people are not willing to buy an expensive Corvette.

I've said this before, but I think they should make as many blue devils as people will buy. They're already building the engines by hand, and there are sure to be aftermarket CF parts for the Z06--why shouldn't they be factory parts? They can custom build one without any increased capital expenditure, and build as many or as few as are ordered--there should be little to no added fixed costs. A little engineering cost, but relatively little in comparison to the overall cost of the vette program. In fact, they've already spent so much playing with the idea, it shouldn't actually cost them any MORE to actually produce it.

But that's my take on the whole situation.

 

[TheCracker]

Perhaps they'll offer the Blue Devil as an factory aftermarket conversion of the Z06 - like Lotus have done with the Exige 240R? - This way they won't have the extra cost of homologation, and can build as many as are wanted.

 

[Famine]

And, you'll be more embarassed if YOU'RE wrong, than I will if I'M wrong. 7:40 is second fiddle to 4 production cars, most of which have price tags 5x the cost of the BD.

Just out of interest, you are actually serious when you quibble about the price of a $100,000 car compared to a $500,000 car? Let me know when you've got enough funds to afford to buy either.

 

[skicrush]

Just out of interest, you are actually serious when you quibble about the price of a $100,000 car compared to a $500,000 car? Let me know when you've got enough funds to afford to buy either.

Why, do you want a ride?

Let's see, I should graduate in about 2 years from graduate school, so, how about 4-5 years? Unless I achieve my goal of getting a job over there, in which case I'll wait until I move back to the US--I'm not paying your crazy prices for a vette. Now, I could do a Sagaris, though. But I digress...

And there's word from a guy that works at Pratt & Miller that it was a stock Z06 that got the 7:40...

 

[Famine]

Why, do you want a ride?

Let's see, I should graduate in about 2 years from graduate school, so, how about 4-5 years? Unless I achieve my goal of getting a job over there, in which case I'll wait until I move back to the US--I'm not paying your crazy prices for a vette. Now, I could do a Sagaris, though. But I digress...

And there's word from a guy that works at Pratt & Miller that it was a stock Z06 that got the 7:40...

That would require roughly a $100,000 a year job, in order to save enough to be able to purchase it and run it - unless you plan to live with your parents, thereby avoiding rent or mortgage payments.

 

[skicrush]

That would require roughly a $100,000 a year job, in order to save enough to be able to purchase it and run it - unless you plan to live with your parents, thereby avoiding rent or mortgage payments.

No, it would require a $45k a year job, and not having filed bankruptcy recently. Since my credit is perfect, that shouldn't be a problem. However, unlike most americans, I don't debt finance, so it would take me 3 years to be able to afford it at the $65k-$75 I should make when I graduate. And it's running costs will be less than my Stanza--it gets better mileage, at least. Tires will be more, but it's a Corvette, not a Ferrari, so servicing doesn't cost $10k per 1000 miles.

Most of my point was that the time of 7:40 was for a $65k Z06, not a $100k Blue Devil, so it's only $10K more than an M3. And the "only 4 cars faster" bit is still true.

 

[Famine]

No, it would require a $45k a year job, and not having filed bankruptcy recently. Since my credit is perfect, that shouldn't be a problem. However, unlike most americans, I don't debt finance, so it would take me 3 years to be able to afford it at the $65k-$75 I should make when I graduate. And it's running costs will be less than my Stanza--it gets better mileage, at least. Tires will be more, but it's a Corvette, not a Ferrari, so servicing doesn't cost $10k per 1000 miles.

Most of my point was that the time of 7:40 was for a $65k Z06, not a $100k Blue Devil, so it's only $10K more than an M3. And the "only 4 cars faster" bit is still true.

Hang on...

3x $45,000 = $135,000.

So you're telling me that you can earn $135,000 in GROSS income over three years and not lose more than $35,000 in rent/mortgage payments, bills, general living costs (including any form of transportation in the interim) and, oooh, what's this? TAXES?

I hope you're not a student of economics or maths.

What are you doing that you can expect to walk into a $45,000 a year job straight from school with no experience anyway?

 

[Swift]

No, it would require a $45k a year job, and not having filed bankruptcy recently. Since my credit is perfect, that shouldn't be a problem. However, unlike most americans, I don't debt finance, so it would take me 3 years to be able to afford it at the $65k-$75 I should make when I graduate. And it's running costs will be less than my Stanza--it gets better mileage, at least. Tires will be more, but it's a Corvette, not a Ferrari, so servicing doesn't cost $10k per 1000 miles.

Most of my point was that the time of 7:40 was for a $65k Z06, not a $100k Blue Devil, so it's only $10K more than an M3. And the "only 4 cars faster" bit is still true.

BTW, length of credit line is almost as important as your credit score itself. So, being in your low 20's, I'm doubting you'd have the credit line to get that Vette at a rate that would be feasible. Not to mention insurance!