*** New Corvette Z06 ***

[Dave A]

They pay for the badge, whatever the cars performance if someone gets the chance to buy an Enzo he'll buy it, he might buy a BD as well but if he's the type of person who would buy an Enzo, CCR, Carrera GT ect in the first place, he'll buy one of thoes. Though I don't think 7:28 or 7:30 for the BD is reasonable for reasons already stated but we'll have to wait and see. I don't know about in the US but a Corvette, Z06, BD or not won't give you much kudos over here, a Lamborghini, Ferrari, Aston, Porsche ect will. A Corvette won't give you anywhere near the image no matter how well it performs, it's made by Cheverolet who arn't excluse, arn't eserved for the rich and because the car is relatively cheap these people will probably just see the car as cheap. They'll look at the BD and think "Corvette badge or Ferrari badge" not whic goes round the ring faster. Maybe in a few years time if the Vettes can establish themselves as a serious perfomance car it might get a better image, but it's got too much of a bad one now for it to change in a single generation.

 

[McLaren'sAngel]

Hiya! Meow! (='.'=)

I am going to have to agree with Live4Speed. 👍 I find that the average people these days don't look at cars for performances or lap times. They just look at how expensive the car is and how it can carry that "I AM SO RICH" image. A Ferrari car will always be looked as symbolism of wealth for the owner regardless of it having 200, 300, or 600+ HP.

In the view of racing fans, they will still look at the car regardless if the C6 Z06 is a bit faster or a tuned (x) car have proven to beat it. Ferraris will ALWAYS be drooled at.

 

[Layla's Keeper]

I recall my cousin Barry, a 308GTB Quattrovalvole owner, once saying this about how much his car was worth....

"Well, it's a $7,000 car in $11,000 condition with a $15,000 history thanks to Roger, but it's also wearing $20,000 worth of horseys."

 

[iceburns288]

I disagree with your disagreement. I think they'll drift more towards Aston in approach.

At some point, in the quiet of their studies, late in the night, the buyers of Enzos and CGTs HAVE to think, "What's wrong with Ferrari (or Porsche)? I paid half a million dollars for this car, the best production road car in the whole world. It's more expensive than a GT1 class Lemans race car, and almost as fast. And GM can make a car that is nearly it's equal for the same price as my wife's 7 series? That just CAN'T be right."

No owner looking to buy an F430 for sport would go to Aston. It's a completely different driving experience. It's a very, very beautiful Mercedes, in a way. A Ferrari drives completely differently. Except for the 612S, Ferraris don't drive anything like Astons and aren't meant to, and definitely shouldn't in my opinion.

I think a CGT or Enzo owner will actually be thinking "Wow. I just drove a Blue Devil. It was a wonderfully fast car, yes indeed, but unfortunately it won't offer the same feel and experience as my current car. I feel no need to switch." I can almost guarantee it. If anything they will also buy a Z06 or BLue Devil (they got the money for it! ) in addition to their current exotic.

 

[skicrush]

Well, this was my point more than anything else. I didn't say people would stop buying Ferraris--I said they'd drift more towards Aston in approach. All out performance will no longer be the defining characteristic.

From Issue 2 of www.windingroad.com

The End is Near
I’d like to predict, in advance (after-the-fact predictions being much easier but far less
praiseworthy), that the new Corvette Z06 will prove to be a milestone car for the next
decade. Right now you’re probably thinking. “Well that’s really going out on a limb.” Kind
of like predicting cold in Siberia, it seems clear that a 427-based Corvette, with 500
hp, in a reasonably priced car, represents some sort of value milestone at least. And
considering that the Z06 weighs less than 3,100 lbs., its performance is certain to be
stunning too.
But that’s not the kind of milestone I’m talking about. The milestone I’m talking about is
that the new Z06 signals the end of the horsepower war. Let’s review:
1991: Dodge introduces the Viper, with 450 hp. Amazing, but crude.
1993: Porsche offers a 911 Turbo with 408 hp. Power and finesse, ja!
1999: Ferrari announces the 360 Modena with 400 hp. Still seems an impressive
number. Oh, the naiveté of youth!
2001: Chevrolet brings out the Z06 with 405 hp. Power to the people!
2003: Mercedes-Benz offers the SL55 AMG, with 493 hp and 516 lb.-ft of torque.
Oooooh!
2003: Dodge introduces the new Viper, also with the requisite 500 hp/500 lb.-ft.
Still crude. This is starting to get boring.
2004: Mercedes-Benz, not to be outdone, introduces the SL600 and then the SL65,
now peaking at 604 hp and 738 lb.-ft. of torque. But do I really care?
2005: Bugatti (maybe) actually delivers the Veyron, with 986 hp and 922 lb.-ft. of
torque. Big numbers, but at $1 million, is anybody listening?
2005: Corvette Z06 delivers 500 hp in a real car for under $70k. Yes!
My point is that, sure, power could continue to rise. 0–60 times could approach 3 seconds
for a whole host of cars. But how does this relate to real-world driving? Actually, it
doesn’t. And I think the high-end manufacturers are going to look at the Z06 and realize
that if Chevy can do that, they need to play a different game.
There are three parts to the new game. The most obvious will be fuel economy. Cars
getting 8–10 mpg just won’t make sense to more and more people. As a result,
manufacturers will increasingly realize that they have to market interesting cars with
some eye to efficiency. This will lead to a second revolution, that of materials, in an
effort to reduce weight. We recently had a chance to meet with Burt Rutan, and he
made it clear that changes in materials technology were fundamental to winning the X
prize for private manned space flight. The Ferrari F1 team would say the same. Some
of this will cascade into street cars, so that we don’t see average vehicle weight go over
4,000 lbs. Even more important, though, will be the third revolution, which focuses on
driving dynamics over specs. That will be the big one, enabled by a realization that
horsepower isn’t everything.
Bill Campbell
Editor, Winding Road

I think, by and large, most Ferraris, Lambos and such will continue to sell as well as they do right now. But uber hyper supercars like the Enzo, CGT and such, that are ALL about performance, will have a hard time justifying their existence when a car as lowly as a $100k Chevrolet is knocking on their doors, if not beating them up.

 

[Dave A]

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're only looking at this from an Americans point of view, the Vette could outrun a Veyron and it'd still fail over here. Sure it might do well in the states, but elsewhere, I don't think so. I know for a fact I'd rather be seen in a Ferrari or Lamborghini than than a Z06 or BD, I'm not saying the Vette is a bad car but it just doesn't fit the right image over here. If you're going to spend 80k on a car, image is VERY important to Europeans and if they're left with a choice between a 911 turbo or a Z06 the Porshe would be bought by 95% of the people. Also you're still talking about the BD as if it CAN keep up with an Enzo or CGT, I heavilly doubt that it will but regardless of mine and you're opinion on the matter, they're both speculation and not hard facts. I dissagree that cars like thoes will suffer drops in sales, you look at an Enzo, in a few years time they can be worth more than what the owners paid for them, peoplpe were selling them for 750k+ when they first took delivery. A Corvette will never have that apeal and will never go up in price, why, because of it's image, it's the wrong brand.

 

[Swift]

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're only looking at this from an Americans point of view, the Vette could outrun a Veyron and it'd still fail over here. Sure it might do well in the states, but elsewhere, I don't think so. I know for a fact I'd rather be seen in a Ferrari or Lamborghini than than a Z06 or BD, I'm not saying the Vette is a bad car but it just doesn't fit the right image over here. If you're going to spend 80k on a car, image is VERY important to Europeans and if they're left with a choice between a 911 turbo or a Z06 the Porshe would be bought by 95% of the people. Also you're still talking about the BD as if it CAN keep up with an Enzo or CGT, I heavilly doubt that it will but regardless of mine and you're opinion on the matter, they're both speculation and not hard facts. I dissagree that cars like thoes will suffer drops in sales, you look at an Enzo, in a few years time they can be worth more than what the owners paid for them, peoplpe were selling them for 750k+ when they first took delivery. A Corvette will never have that apeal and will never go up in price, why, because of it's image, it's the wrong brand.

Good points. However I do think the article is pretty much right on the money. But towards the wrong names. I think that it's going to effect the stateside sports cars more then anyone else. Now with the Vette on the same HP level as a Viper, the "appeal" of pure HP has lost some of its luster. It's going to be more of a complete package from here on out.

The only reason that a Porsche is better then a Vette right now is image and package. Chevy could do something about one of those...

 

[skicrush]

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're only looking at this from an Americans point of view, the Vette could outrun a Veyron and it'd still fail over here. Sure it might do well in the states, but elsewhere, I don't think so. I know for a fact I'd rather be seen in a Ferrari or Lamborghini than than a Z06 or BD, I'm not saying the Vette is a bad car but it just doesn't fit the right image over here. If you're going to spend 80k on a car, image is VERY important to Europeans and if they're left with a choice between a 911 turbo or a Z06 the Porshe would be bought by 95% of the people. Also you're still talking about the BD as if it CAN keep up with an Enzo or CGT, I heavilly doubt that it will but regardless of mine and you're opinion on the matter, they're both speculation and not hard facts. I dissagree that cars like thoes will suffer drops in sales, you look at an Enzo, in a few years time they can be worth more than what the owners paid for them, peoplpe were selling them for 750k+ when they first took delivery. A Corvette will never have that apeal and will never go up in price, why, because of it's image, it's the wrong brand.

I DO agree to a point. But I think people that buy CGTs and Enzos are out for more than just the image. They could buy a Noble, an F430, a Vanquish, Murcielago, or any other high end exotic. But the McLaren F1, Bugatti EB110, the Enzo, and CGT are about a LOT more than image. They are about the kind of raw performance you just can't get anywhere else. Track performance you can't achieve with any amount of modding. The kind of incredible performance that doesn't come cheap, if at all, and that justifies the exhorbitant amounts they charge ($.5 to $1 million) for their cars.

All I'm saying is that justification is getting pretty weak. Were I filthy rich enough to afford to own multiple Ferraris, Lamborghinis, whateverI wanted, I can guarantee you I would have several. All my favorites. But, there is a huge leap in expense of the average Lambo or Ferrari, or even Aston, and the cost of these hyper cars. A huge difference justified by the exclusivity of their performance. And when that performance is no longer THAT exclusive, why should the price be so exclusive?

 

[Dave A]

People with thoes cars are ALL about the image, they are rarely driven on roads let alone tracks. If person A can say he has a Ferrari Enzo, it will ALWAYS mean more than him saying he has a Corvette. These cars are usually kept in pristine condiion and then sold at a higher price.

 

[Swift]

A huge difference justified by the exclusivity of their performance. And when that performance is no longer THAT exclusive, why should the price be so exclusive?

OK, then why is a 911 Carerra around 80K or so, a regular Vette less then 60K and the Vette OWNS the Porsche on the track. Keep in mind I'm not bashing Porsche as I'm a big fan, just bringing out a point.

 

[skicrush]

OK, then why is a 911 Carerra around 80K or so, a regular Vette less then 60K and the Vette OWNS the Porsche on the track. Keep in mind I'm not bashing Porsche as I'm a big fan, just bringing out a point.

An extra $20k to drive something with a "better" name? Sure. And I'll admit that at even double or triple the price of a vette, people are paying over $100k MORE for an Aston Martin or F430. And not getting hardly any more performance for their dollar--more exclusivity, yes, and also much finer workmanship and materials(one of the vette's classic faults). But what happens when you double the prices of THOSE cars (like the Vanquish or Murcielago, not the F430)? For an EXTRA $250k, does workmanship REALLY get better? No. Is your car really THAT much more exclusive? No. Their owners have a different goal. Those cars have ONE benefit over those more expensive "normal" exotics--they are a step above in their performance. They are race cars made road legal. You're basically buying all-out, no-holds-barred speed at that point, and paying for the exclusivity of going that fast. You're buying bragging rights to say you have the absolute fastest car you will ever see on the road. For an extra $200-$300k MORE than your average exotic. And you get more performance than any "normal" exotic. That extra money isn't about fit, finish (no radio?), or brand name. It is about speed, plain and simple.

So, what is all that extra money buying, if a lowly chevy has comparable performance, for less than even the lowliest car to be considered an exotic?

 

[Swift]

An extra $20k to drive something with a "better" name? Sure. And I'll admit that at even double or triple the price of a vette, people are paying over $100k MORE for an Aston Martin or F430. And not getting hardly any more performance for their dollar--more exclusivity, yes, and also much finer workmanship and materials(one of the vette's classic faults). But what happens when you double the prices of THOSE cars (like the Vanquish or Murcielago, not the F430)? For an EXTRA $250k, does workmanship REALLY get better? No. Is your car really THAT much more exclusive? No. Their owners have a different goal. Those cars have ONE benefit over those more expensive "normal" exotics--they are a step above in their performance. They are race cars made road legal. You're basically buying all-out, no-holds-barred speed at that point, and paying for the exclusivity of going that fast. You're buying bragging rights to say you have the absolute fastest car you will ever see on the road. For an extra $200-$300k MORE than your average exotic. And you get more performance than any "normal" exotic. That extra money isn't about fit, finish (no radio?), or brand name. It is about speed, plain and simple.

So, what is all that extra money buying, if a lowly chevy has comparable performance, for less than even the lowliest car to be considered an exotic?

It's cool man. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

 

[Dave A]

Don't compare the Vette to an Aston, two very, very different markets. An Aston if much higher caliber than a Vette quality wise, a Z06 should win in a race but thats not what an Aston's about. An Aston beats a Vette, no hammers a Vette in everyway that an Aston needs to be good at to hit it's market. Argue performance against a Ferrari, but not an Aston because even if it performs well (which it does) it's not about being the fastest.

 

[Swift]

Don't compare the Vette to an Aston, two very, very different markets. An Aston if much higher caliber than a Vette quality wise, a Z06 should win in a race but thats not what an Aston's about. An Aston beats a Vette, no hammers a Vette in everyway that an Aston needs to be good at to hit it's market. Argue performance against a Ferrari, but not an Aston because even if it performs well (which it does) it's not about being the fastest.

That really wasn't his point. He was talking more value and "stature" for dollar. That's all.

 

[skicrush]

It's cool man. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

I'm cool. I think you just may have been reading it backwards for a second, or leaving the context behind.

Don't compare the Vette to an Aston, two very, very different markets. An Aston if much higher caliber than a Vette quality wise, a Z06 should win in a race but thats not what an Aston's about. An Aston beats a Vette, no hammers a Vette in everyway that an Aston needs to be good at to hit it's market. Argue performance against a Ferrari, but not an Aston because even if it performs well (which it does) it's not about being the fastest.

Uh, did you mis the part where I DIDN'T compare a vette to an Aston? In fact, if you re-read my post, can you see where I said that you get better workmanship and materials in them? That the aforementioned stuff, along with the name is actually WORTH the extra money for an Aston? Are you even reading these? You've missed the whole train of what I was saying, and you're trying to hijack the caboose!

 

[Dave A]

You're right I missread it, but value for money isn't what someone is obsessed about when he's planing on spending 300k plus on a car. He wants exclusivity, a prestige brand and bragging rights, the Vette may offer bragging rights to a certain extent but thats where the markets for any Vette no matter how fast it may be will end in comparison to a Carrera GT or an Enzo. Loads of cars are better value for money, a 911 is better value for money, there never would be any hypercars if everyone wanted value for money. Super rich people want the exclusivity the badge and the bragging rights that come with it.

 

[Famine]

Why won't this thread die?!

 

[Swift]

Why won't this thread die?!

Because the Z06 is an incredible car. When you take out all the off topic junk out of this thread, it's really pretty good.

Loads of cars are better value for money, a 911 is better value for money, there never would be any hypercars if everyone wanted value for money. Super rich people want the exclusivity the badge and the bragging rights that come with it.

Why would you say the 911 is a better value for the money then the Z06?

 

[skicrush]

Why won't this thread die?!

THAT'S what I've been looking for!!!

 

[Famine]

Because the Z06 is an incredible car.

Is?

 

[skicrush]

Is?

What, does it not officially exist until the first one is delivered?

 

[Famine]

Let me answer that with a pair of questions.

Is the TVR Speed 12 a fast car? Is the Bugatti Veyron any good?

 

[Emohawk]

Yes and maybe.

 

[McLaren'sAngel]

Why won't this thread die?!

Hiya! Meow! (='.'=)

Cool animation!

 

[Joey D]

I'm pretty sure the Z06 is on sale since there are a few at work with non M plates on them. Maybe it's a GM thing though.

 

[Swift]

Let me answer that with a pair of questions.

Is the TVR Speed 12 a fast car? Is the Bugatti Veyron any good?

To answer a question with a question is unsound, is it not Famine?

 

[Famine]

Possibly, but they are designed to make you think about the validity of skicrush's comment.

We all know everything we need to about the Speed 12 and Veyron. But neither has ever been officially sold so comments regarding how "great" they are are irrelevant - no "member of the public" has ever driven one. Similarly, if the Z06 isn't on sale yet, no-one knows how "incredible" it is since no-one outside of GM has had the chance to drive one. From first impressions, it seems like it will be a good car - but without any independant experiences to draw on no-one can say for sure.


(and yes - I'm aware of the one Cerbera Speed 12 which was sold, but Pink Floyd scarcely count as members of the public, and no-one else has ever driven it other than them and TVR)

 

[///M-Spec]

So, what is all that extra money buying, if a lowly chevy has comparable performance, for less than even the lowliest car to be considered an exotic?

Typically a Porsche has a much more communicative steering rack and chassis than a contemporary Corvette. Drive a 911 or even a Boxster and you'll notice in the first 10 feet that the car tells you everything that's happening at the contact patch. It never leaves you guessing where the limit is and there is almost a telepathic bond between driver and car.

As you pick up the pace, the steering becomes even more alive and faithfully transmits everything you need to go even harder. Once you begin to exceed the limits of grip, the chassis continues to communicate-- even when the front tacks wide or when the heavy tail rotates, it's always predictable; never a nasty surprise. You'd have to go back more than two decades to find a nasty handling 911.

And it does all this without a huge sacrifice in ride quality or stability.

That's not to say a Corvette is a crappy driving car or anything-- far from it. But you end up pointing the Vette and placing faith in that the car will pull you through. A Corvette obeys your commands; a willing and capable subordinate.

A Porsche is a ready partner; a car that tells you where the limits are encourages you to push past them. They flow in the corners and it's one of the big intangibles that you really can't quantify or measure. They are simply fun to drive and it's one reason why Porsche can continue to charge a hefty premium for a car that isn't any better on paper.

There's a few other things that Porsche does better, but none as obvious or defining.

When it was C4 vs. 993, then C5 vs. 996, the gap wasn't quite as large. GM has clearly upped with ante with the C6 on many levels and I think Porsche does have a little catch up to do. I think we can continue to expect bi-yearly tweaks to the 997 to bump up the power so the disparity isn't quite as wide.

Once the Carrera moves closer to a C6 on paper, I expect the Cayman ---closer in spirit to the Vette to become the primary competitor.


M

 

[Swift]

Possibly, but they are designed to make you think about the validity of skicrush's comment.

I was busting your chops for saying the same thing to another member in a different thread. See...it is possible to take things a little too seriously, sometimes.

MSpec, everything you said is 100% true. Even documented by the people that have reviewed the two cars.

However, on paper(and the track), the C6 owns the Carerra. I realize that paper isn't everything, but it's true. Which would I rather drive? The Carerra for the reasons that you have described. But which is the guy with about 70-90K going to buy at mid life crisis? That's the question.

There are people literally raised to believe that the Vette is one of the sweetest pieces of automotive machinery and convincing them otherwise is a veritable impossibility. Just because it doesn't "feel" as good as a car that's slower then it makes no difference.

 

[skicrush]

Typically a Porsche has a much more communicative steering rack and chassis than a contemporary Corvette. Drive a 911 or even a Boxster and you'll notice in the first 10 feet that the car tells you everything that's happening at the contact patch. It never leaves you guessing where the limit is and there is almost a telepathic bond between driver and car.

As you pick up the pace, the steering becomes even more alive and faithfully transmits everything you need to go even harder. Once you begin to exceed the limits of grip, the chassis continues to communicate-- even when the front tacks wide or when the heavy tail rotates, it's always predictable; never a nasty surprise. You'd have to go back more than two decades to find a nasty handling 911.

And it does all this without a huge sacrifice in ride quality or stability.

That's not to say a Corvette is a crappy driving car or anything-- far from it. But you end up pointing the Vette and placing faith in that the car will pull you through. A Corvette obeys your commands; a willing and capable subordinate.

A Porsche is a ready partner; a car that tells you where the limits are encourages you to push past them. They flow in the corners and it's one of the big intangibles that you really can't quantify or measure. They are simply fun to drive and it's one reason why Porsche can continue to charge a hefty premium for a car that isn't any better on paper.

There's a few other things that Porsche does better, but none as obvious or defining.

When it was C4 vs. 993, then C5 vs. 996, the gap wasn't quite as large. GM has clearly upped with ante with the C6 on many levels and I think Porsche does have a little catch up to do. I think we can continue to expect bi-yearly tweaks to the 997 to bump up the power so the disparity isn't quite as wide.

Once the Carrera moves closer to a C6 on paper, I expect the Cayman ---closer in spirit to the Vette to become the primary competitor.


M

I've heard this repeated often enough in the mags. One of these cars tells you where the limits are. The other car has limits that are farther out, and you need to do more work to figure them out and get comfortable driving at that limit. I think it's pretty safe to say that generally speaking, drivers that are more performance oriented are going to go for the vette, and those that are more interested in a certain feel will go for the porsche. Having said that, I know C5 Z06s feel substantially more raw and communicative than the base C5, and I'm sure the C6 and C6 Z06 will have a fairly similar relationship, but I suppose we need to wait to see what the mags and drivers say once they start coming out (nod to Famine). Dave Hill anounced on Saturday that the Z06 ran a 7:43 at the ring. With it's stock runflats. http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=453767#post453767 Not the 7:40 I had heard, but still pretty darn good.

I admit that this whole debate comes down to an issue of what the buyer is really looking for. No one buying any of these cars will be able to wring anything close to the official ring time out of their car, but it does give you an idea what your car is capable of once you get some experience driving it. But by the same measure, this car and the Blue Devil (if it sees production) will change the rules of the game. Speed (and track times) will stop being used as a yardstick, to try to define what is "better," and will be used more for buyer evaluation purposes. Whether it is the Aston luxury approach, or the Porsche "communication" approach, the high end car manufacturers will need to find alternate justification for their prices. Because fast lap times simply don't cost THAT much to achieve.