NFS Shift 2 - Things GT5 could/should implement.

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Shift still looks too arcadey. The cars feel like they slide into and out of every corner, the camera needs to be toned down and the HUD is way too cluttered.
 
Excellent post. Absolutely nailed it.

I like the way SMS are going with this and the fact that they have been working closely with race drivers during development. In one of the interviews I watched they were very aware that much criticism was leveled at Shift for being too much Arcade and not enough Sim. They seem keen to address that so let's hope they get it right. Those who have been hands-on have come away impressed so I'm optimistic this will be worth getting. I have pre-ordered and I'm looking forward to taking it out for spin.

From what I am reading SMS are saying that they are looking to make Shift 2 much more sim oriented than Shift 1, but that the method in which they are doing this is less focused on perfecting the math behind the physics (although they will still be good) and working more to ensure that you feel like you are racing.

What I mean by that is from their words I get the feeling they are looking to get everything pretty good physics wise. Not necessarily top of the board perfect, just good enough that it feels right while driving. Then work to round out the experience in all the other facets of presentation too... make the overall experience feel like a race so that if you really focus solely on the physics you may come away with some imperfections, but overall the experience will be exciting and edge of your seat where it should be giving you the proper fear and exhileration of racing.

Shift still looks too arcadey. The cars feel like they slide into and out of every corner, the camera needs to be toned down and the HUD is way too cluttered.

I would think the slidely corners could well be part of the look to apex feature and why I tend not to like that feature in games... when the pov changes without any tangible input from the user there is a split second where your brain has to figure out what's going on based on what it sees (which takes at least a few frames of relative movement to figure out) rather than what it feels (which is instant).

Watch the frame of the car as he turns you and will notice it dramatically changes in refernce to the frame. This is the emulation of a head tilting/looking to apex.

The interesting thing is it was done well enough that you didn't pick up on that being what it was but rather took it as part of the physics and the overall experience which is what SMS say they are trying to do... it will be interesting to see how it works when you have your hands on it... I think like head tracking it will be unintuitive and unpleasant, but we will see...
 
Leaderboards - sure
Car sounds NOT made by Hoover - already there, sorry your exaggeration doesn't hold up
Car sounds with no audible loops and phasiness - never noticed loops
Car sounds that are EXCITING! - already there IMHO
Time to other cars displayed on HUD - Yes
Best lap times for all drivers displayed (at length) at the end of a race - Yes
Competitive AI (with retaliatory tendencies - hit them, they tend to hit back) - Yes but No to the parenthesis...this is highly unrealistic when compared to anything but NASCAR. Most race drivers are more professional that this.
FAR more real tracks than fantasy tracks - no, the PD-original tracks and by far more fun to drive and provide a more varied experience. I'm not against inclusion of more real world tracks, so long as it does not come at the price of excluding the PD-originals
Grid Girls! - absolutely not.
A touge track and an open drift track - point to point mountain roads, sure. An "open drift track" for figure skating? No thanks.
No grind - there isn't one now you ask me.
Marbles off the racing line - I don't even know what this means.
EVERY car has cockpit and helmet cam view - yes
Savable tuning setups per track - yes
Easy matchmaking online -yes
One make Spec racing online and off - yes
No B-Spec! - No. It does not detract from the A-Spec experience whatsoever, and some people (such as myself) enjoy it.
Livery editor with mirroring (in S2U) - no, unless it somehow only allows realistic racing schemes. We do not need Fast&Furious or offensive paint schemes in this game.
Paint system includes Gloss, Metallic, Candy, Pearlescent, Chrome, Matte and Flip (twin colour). And no one use paint chips! - I for one don't mind the paint chip system, but I'm sure I'm in the minority here. I also don't feel the need to change the color of a car every day.
Stock cars (base model) already tuned by a tame pro race driver - If you mean "more pre-upgraded models from real-world tuning shops," then yes. Otherwise no.



Many of them are superfluous to a racing experience...not to mention the fact that the GT series has always been about driving; the racing is there to give you something to do.



GT5 is only "Pokemon with cars" if you care about collecting every car. Many people don't.

You think the cars in GT5 sound exciting? Is that an honest statement? The only car that sounds remotely exciting is the 787b. So many cars sound the exact same, with that ****** whining noise. Have you heard a real BOV in this game? If you have I will stand corrected because I have not. I'm sorry but most of these cars do not sound exciting, and so many of them sound the same. It's quite disappointing really.

And you're turning down a livery editor? Lol you're REALLY in the minority. The paint system is inadequate, we all know it but deal with it because we have to. Had the game come with a livery editor and the ability to choose paint compounds, not one person would be saying, "Oh jeez ya know I really wish we had a paint chip system instead of this." They'd probably be complaining that shapes they wanted or fonts they wanted weren't in the livery editor. I've said it before and I'll say it again, PD wanted to do nothing reminiscent of Forza 3 because they didn't want to seem like they were "copying." They should have shelved their pride and followed up on innovations from T10, making them even better, instead of completely ignoring them. No drivetrain swaps, no engine swaps? I mean come on. I won't sit here and bash GT5 though, I just wish some developer would come along and take the best of Forza and GT5 and put it all into one game. Life would be good.
 
Shift still looks too arcadey. The cars feel like they slide into and out of every corner, the camera needs to be toned down and the HUD is way too cluttered.

Except one moment when the rear steps out under braking I truely can't see where the sliding is.....everything else in that clip is driver induced.

Or are people simple going for a convenient complain when they know no better?
 
I can point you to video after video of noobs and bad drivers hooning around on GT5, sliding through every corner, weaving down the straights.

Apparently, that's all I need to PROVE how arcade GT5 is :crazy:
 
I can point you to video after video of noobs and bad drivers hooning around on GT5, sliding through every corner, weaving down the straights.

Apparently, that's all I need to PROVE how arcade GT5 is :crazy:

I guess I will have to play the game to really form a opinion. In GT 5 when I slide, it feels like I'm losing control and actually sliding. In Shift 1, the sliding was very pronounced, it felt like every corner was being drifted through.
 
Leaderboards - sure
Car sounds NOT made by Hoover - already there, sorry your exaggeration doesn't hold up
Car sounds with no audible loops and phasiness - never noticed loops
Car sounds that are EXCITING! - already there IMHO

You are in the minority there. If you can't hear the loops, you aren't listening. They are obvious on many, many cars. Try the Minolta... And, go to some real racing. You'll never settle for GT5 sounds again.

Time to other cars displayed on HUD - Yes
Best lap times for all drivers displayed (at length) at the end of a race - Yes
Competitive AI (with retaliatory tendencies - hit them, they tend to hit back) - Yes but No to the parenthesis...this is highly unrealistic when compared to anything but NASCAR. Most race drivers are more professional that this.

LOL... haven't seen much BTTC, DTM and many others, have you?! I repeat... watch more racing.

And you miss the point... retaliatory AI gives you a REASON to not bash THEM. GT5, no such problem... Beat on them all you like (if they haven't already braked like a madman to get out of your way!) and they will continue to drive like they are on Xanax!


FAR more real tracks than fantasy tracks - no, the PD-original tracks and by far more fun to drive and provide a more varied experience. I'm not against inclusion of more real world tracks, so long as it does not come at the price of excluding the PD-originals

Who suggested DROPPING anything? But take a look at S2U's real track list, and then wipe the drool from your face! :drool:

Grid Girls! - absolutely not.

Don't worry... they'll descend one day! Maybe that's why you don't go to REAL racing. All those yucky girls! Skimpy outfits! Shocking! :crazy:

A touge track and an open drift track - point to point mountain roads, sure. An "open drift track" for figure skating? No thanks.

Guess you'd like drifting removed from GT5, as well... I'm not a fan of the sport myself, but I'm willing to accept it for others. But I guess it's all about YOU, isn't it..? :rolleyes:

No grind - there isn't one now you ask me.

Ask the other 99.99% of GT5 players. What level you at? See my sig.

Marbles off the racing line - I don't even know what this means.

Look it up... Or watch any real racing, again. They are the little bits of rubber that come off the tires as they wear out (you didn't think they evaporated, did you?), and come to rest off the racing line (sometimes called clag). They reduce grip dramatically when you get off line. Not knowing about these is a bit suspect...


EVERY car has cockpit and helmet cam view - yes
Savable tuning setups per track - yes
Easy matchmaking online - yes
One make Spec racing online and off - yes
No B-Spec! - No. It does not detract from the A-Spec experience whatsoever, and some people (such as myself) enjoy it.

Probably because actual RACING is so bad. I NEVER wanted to do anything but drive on Shift, but that's because it was EXCITING. And B-Spec has all KINDS of reward cars that you can't win any other way. Some pretty important ones, too. Not being able to win them in A-Spec pretty much mandates you HAVE to play B-Spec.

Livery editor with mirroring (in S2U) - no, unless it somehow only allows realistic racing schemes. We do not need Fast&Furious or offensive paint schemes in this game.
Paint system includes Gloss, Metallic, Candy, Pearlescent, Chrome, Matte and Flip (twin colour). And no one use paint chips! - I for one don't mind the paint chip system, but I'm sure I'm in the minority here. I also don't feel the need to change the color of a car every day.

Some pretty garish liveries in real life. You SURE you've ever watched any real racing? :crazy:

Stock cars (base model) already tuned by a tame pro race driver - If you mean "more pre-upgraded models from real-world tuning shops," then yes. Otherwise no.

No, I mean, when you drive an Arcade car (or a random choice from Shuffle Mode) the suspension is already tuned to be at least decent. There's a VAST range of base level setups in GT5, ranging from the decent to the undriveable...

Many of them are superfluous to a racing experience...not to mention the fact that the GT series has always been about driving; the racing is there to give you something to do.

THAT tired excuse again... That's like saying a BAD soccer game is a 'ball kicking simulator' :sly: And those details are in REAL racing. But what do THEY know about what the sport needs, eh?!

GT5 is only "Pokemon with cars" if you care about collecting every car. Many people don't.

No, it's that collecting cars is implemented MUCH better than racing... I'd prefer a return to emphasizing RACING, not car collecting, not 'driving', not visiting the museum, not taking photos, not trying to lord it over other games that have NOT forgotten what racing IS...
 
all the whiners in this thread against Shift 2 seems to belong to Gran Turismo defense force....

they say arcadey but they still haven't touched the game...

but when GT5 Prologue was released a lot of people were happy to believe that GT5 will be successful but it turned out that the final game was an abomination...

but if this game turned out bad, then I'll say things against the game since they said that this is the real racing simulator that GT5 should've been.
 
THAT tired excuse again... That's like saying a BAD soccer game is a 'ball kicking simulator' :sly: And those details are in REAL racing. But what do THEY know about what the sport needs, eh?!

yeah...few days ago I thought of like, there is Basketball...but the video game is called "The Real Basketball Shooting Simulator", so the game is about shooting the basketball not simulating the basketball game.
 
I actually liked Shift's cockpit view, but that's really all it had going for it. You could finish the game in a week if you really tried. And the online was so insanely unbalanced that everyone ended up driving the same cars.
 
Wow I was interested in this game until I stumbled upon this thread and watched the video. I won't be bothering with it now.

I am by no means a racing driver, but when I was in a car crash, there was no way I could have just reversed and carried on. For that split moment my eyes didn't really see anything and my brain registered nothing.

I got in 4 or 5 accidents in my teens. None of them caused my vision to blur, much less go black and white... closest thing to it was the tears in my eyes when I got the repair/lawyer bills. You better believe I was at my sharpest when I was careening through that stop sign, or sliding off the road into that bridge, or any of the other times my life was on the line because I was driving like a moron.

I would stop playing GT if they did that, I don't suffer from motion sickness but I can easily get annoyed by it. I can't stand it when games obscure your vision or use excess depth of field. Vision is the only real feedback you have with a game aside from sound, unlike in real life where you have additional sensory perceptions... it's not realistic, it's just artificial looking and obnoxious.
 
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Your vision doesn't blur or black out until you HIT something! Most of us remember the moment BEFORE the impact pretty well (if we live!), but 'gray-outs' and loss of focus, disorientation and accelerated stress and heartrates are common crash symptoms.

Can't say I've ever crashed and heard the bass drum section from a marching band before, though... :crazy:

It amazing how tiny little details get jumped on by fanboys as an excuse to proclaim their undying loyalty to their current game, while totally ignoring the fact that things like crashes are so much WORSE in GT5 it isn't even funny. Crashes in GT5 are more arcade than Mario Kart...

And don't get me started on damage... 👎
 
I would stop playing GT if they did that, I don't suffer from motion sickness but I can easily get annoyed by it. I can't stand it when games obscure your vision or use excess depth of field. Vision is the only real feedback you have with a game aside from sound, unlike in real life where you have additional sensory perceptions... it's not realistic, it's just artificial looking and obnoxious.

there's a standard cockpit view without the head movement and less effects.
 
Hmm, sadly these kinds of threads always turn into bashing.

After reading this thread I started reading up on Shift 2 a bit and I must say that they seem to have got the game aspect pretty well thought out. If the physics are good (I am not convinced by their statements regarding this) I will definately get this.
I am very willing to believe that the mathematical approach to physics isn't sacred. If Shift can get me the same or even better feeling when I speed around a track I couldn't care less if the PS3 calculated the wear on the gears :D

And they must have been reading gtplanet, as some of the wishes for GT are in Shift 2 (BMW E30 being one of them).
 
Wow I was interested in this game until I stumbled upon this thread and watched the video. I won't be bothering with it now.



I got in 4 or 5 accidents in my teens. None of them caused my vision to blur, much less go black and white... closest thing to it was the tears in my eyes when I got the repair/lawyer bills. You better believe I was at my sharpest when I was careening through that stop sign, or sliding off the road into that bridge, or any of the other times my life was on the line because I was driving like a moron.

I would stop playing GT if they did that, I don't suffer from motion sickness but I can easily get annoyed by it. I can't stand it when games obscure your vision or use excess depth of field. Vision is the only real feedback you have with a game aside from sound, unlike in real life where you have additional sensory perceptions... it's not realistic, it's just artificial looking and obnoxious.

Try being hit from behind, mounting a curb at 40mph, ploughing through a street name sign and into a road sign, ending up all four wheels off the ground; when you were minding your own business driving correctly.

Yeah the effects aren't exactly like shift 2. But its the same principle. Your brain and eyes do not register what is happening for a split second. Especially when you hit something and come to a complete stop.

They may have gone a bit too far, but its better than GT5 having nothing at all.

Your vision doesn't blur or black out until you HIT something! Most of us remember the moment BEFORE the impact pretty well (if we live!), but 'gray-outs' and loss of focus, disorientation and accelerated stress and heartrates are common crash symptoms.

Thank you.
 
all the whiners in this thread against Shift 2 seems to belong to Gran Turismo defense force....

they say arcadey but they still haven't touched the game...

but when GT5 Prologue was released a lot of people were happy to believe that GT5 will be successful but it turned out that the final game was an abomination...

but if this game turned out bad, then I'll say things against the game since they said that this is the real racing simulator that GT5 should've been.

Gran Turismo defence force? Nope.

I'm just tired of the Shift-series. Would rather have seen Hot Pursuit 2.

Looks like Shift 2 will be like the first one, a game which I was really excited about before release. We will see development trailers where they say how awesome the physics are and that they have worked with real racing drivers and bla bla bla.

Then we have some pointless reviews where they the claim that the physics are excellent and realistic, just because the think the game is hard.

But the problem is, the physics were'nt realistic. It's was an arcade game which tried to be a simulator, and I hate that kind of games because it just feels wrong. I think Shift 2 will be the same after a I saw some gameplay videos.

Seems like you can't drive smoothly, look at the wheel for god sake.

And the helmet cam? Another example of a function which tries to simulate real driving. The problem is, like I said before. You won't notice the bumpiness when you are driving in real life, or you will notice but not in the same way. Try shake your head like a maniac and lock your focus on one point, for example a word on your computer screen. You will notice that your eyes are automaticly follows the locked target.

Do the same again, but this time, don't focus on anything. That's how a camera work.
 
That NFS Shift 2 video looks rubbish imo, simply because it's totally unrealistic in so much as your vision does not blur or go black & white like that when you drive a real race car & yes I have once before. Think about it for one moment, how useful is it to be able to turn the HUD off & then glance down at the speedometer only to not be able to see it because of the stupid arcade blur effect, STUPID-STUPID-STUPID! I hated the first NFS Shift for similar reasons & all their talk of making more sim-like is just bollocks, I won't be buying it. When are games designers who make sim racers actually going to start simulating reality instead of adding idiotic unrealistic eye candy & gameplay just to sell it to hyper active kids with low bordom thresholds.

Troll style rant over! ;)


:lol:
 
Try being hit from behind, mounting a curb at 40mph, ploughing through a street name sign and into a road sign, ending up all four wheels off the ground; when you were minding your own business driving correctly.

Yeah the effects aren't exactly like shift 2. But its the same principle. Your brain and eyes do not register what is happening for a split second. Especially when you hit something and come to a complete stop.

They may have gone a bit too far, but its better than GT5 having nothing at all.



Thank you.

I agree what you state there..I was in a similar scenario 2 years ago where out of nowhere, this car plowed our car (my brother and I) and all I remember were blurry images and crashing sound
 
Here's some other stuff, PD could steal, and by doing so, improve enormously... (in no particular order)

Leaderboards
Car sounds NOT made by Hoover
Car sounds with no audible loops and phasiness
Car sounds that are EXCITING!
Time to other cars displayed on HUD
Best lap times for all drivers displayed (at length) at the end of a race
Competitive AI (with retaliatory tendencies - hit them, they tend to hit back)
FAR more real tracks than fantasy tracks
Grid Girls!
A touge track and an open drift track
No grind
Marbles off the racing line
EVERY car has cockpit and helmet cam view
Savable tuning setups per track
Easy matchmaking online
One make Spec racing online and off
No B-Spec!
Livery editor with mirroring (in S2U)
Paint system includes Gloss, Metallic, Candy, Pearlescent, Chrome, Matte and Flip (twin colour). And no one use paint chips!
Stock cars (base model) already tuned by a tame pro race driver

The list goes on, and on, and on, and on.

Every last one of these things would improve GT5 enormously. Some of them are, IMO, essential to a racing game.

Can PD swallow their pride and get onboard? Or will GT6 be Pokemon with cars again?

Hmmmm sounds more like Forza 3. Forza 4 will rip both these games too shreds mark my words.
 
I'll just leave this for you guys to read to show that the effects Shift 2 has in relation to crashes is not that far from the truth.

The Effects of G-force on Humans
Posted 10-13-2004 at 02:14 AM
G-Force

To understand the effects of the term G-force, you must first know what it is. The "g" in g-force stands for gravity of course, you should all know that, if you don't this article had just told you. But the force has a different definition, it is not the gravity, it's an acceleration. The general meaning that we usually think of is the increase of speed, but that is not the case in a scientific perspective. Acceleration is the change in speed or velocity. So in your daily life, braking a car or turning around a bend is in fact acceleration -- according to science.

Without a doubt, we experience gravity and the g-force everyday. If there was no gravity, we wouldn't be standing here, and this article wouldn't be written. If someone weighs 80kg, under an influence of 1g, you would still weigh 80kg. Now, we in our course of our lives should have experience g-forces higher than that, whether it is in a car, while it is braking, turning or accelerating, or on a rollercoaster, which you would experience Gs of over 2. At 3g, on some rollercoasters, a person weighing 80kg, would be 240kg for several seconds. If you have ever experienced a car crash the g-forces could reach up to 12 g for a few seconds. Pilots in F-16s or similar aircraft would have to endure 9gs for maybe ten to twenty seconds. With 9 gs, you'd weigh 720kg if you were 80kg in 1g.

Before you pilot the fighters, you must prove yourself worthy. In order to prove that you could withstand such a tremendous g-force, you will endure yourself through a centrifuge. A centrifuge is basically a spin dryer, but instead of drying clothes, it makes you feel bad. The harder it spins, the more you will get pushed back into your seat.

These forces are bound to screw up the human body. Firstly, you would feel difficulty breathing. This is due to the reason that the forces will pull down on your rib cage which in turn pushes down on your lungs, sometimes emptying the air. This although is not the worst effect, it does wear you out and you would feel the lack of air and fatigue. The most dangerous, is the blood that gets pulled by the g-force. The blood gets pulled away from the brain and is moved to your legs and feet. As with that notion, your organs also get pulled down towards your feet, increasing the problem with blood. The blood in order to get to your brain must be forced harder. Because of this, After a short while experiencing high-g turns, you would start to lose your peripheral vision. You would have tunnel vision and experience greying out (your vision becomes black and white). If the g-forces act on the body even longer, you would lose all vision. This loss of vision is termed black out. Should the turn continue the pilot would eventually lose consciousness. This is also called g-LOC (g induced Loss Of Consciousness).

A normal healthy person would start experience loss of vision at around 5-6 g. A way of resisting this is called "strain". You would contract your muscles below your waist and relax the upper body so that you could breathe normally and easily. Your shoulders should be allowed to drop. This should be used just before a turn in flight, so you could prepare for the g-force effects.

There are other less critical effects of the g-force, such as the bursting of blood vessels creating rashes called "geezles" and bruised buttocks from the seat.

There are also consideration of the negative side of g-forces. Both positive and negative must be considered before flying aircraft or combat aircraft. The negative gs have a different effect on the body. Negative gs are usually experienced during a steep dive in an aircraft where you would feel your weight lessening -- the opposite of postive gs. The steeper the dive, the more "weightless" you'd feel. The negative gs has an opposite effect too. These gs would push blood up to your head and brain. Unlike positive gs, where you can withstand 9gs, as little as 2-3gs would cause your eyes' blood vessels to start rupturing. This is called a "red out". A pilot who pushes negative gs would be seeing through bloodshot eyes.

A long period of time under g-forces could result in major bodily harm or problems. Please seek medical attention and refer to a physician before enduring g-forces.

http://www.electronicaviation.com/articles/General/142
 
No, i hate the blur vision and black and whit, also the effect of the car, when going high speed, you feel like your entering light speed in the millenium falcon......all i know is that GT5 is not yet finished, because of the enormous time spent modeling the premium cars, which i may add, is unmatched by any game, and i doubt forza 4 could match the PS3's power, though some nice points, but what GT5 desperetly needs is at least 50 cars for le-mans and nurburgring enduros, and b-spec drivers to help you fill 3 driver spots. Also qualifying, and difficulty to choose on a-spec, because seriously it is way to easy. Not to mention get more licenses for GT1 and le-mans prototypes racers, and v8 supercars, and more supercars.....but alas we do not live in a perfect world.cand no one developer could manage this, what forza and shift are, subsituting graphic and sound prowess for physics or more variety of cars(not that GT5 hasn't got a big variety of cars).
 
Last time I hit a wall at a track day, I am pretty certain I didn't lose my ability to see colour and my vision didn't blur either. I hit the thing hard too...... first NFS Shift deserved about 30 seconds of my time and then it was swiftly returned to the shops because it was rubbish.

didn't last that long for me, i think i drove a car around two turns before i decided the game was rubbish. The new shift doesn't look like its bringing anything that would interest me. And the 900 degree steering animation doesn't even look lifelike. He's got that wheel all over the place in the video. Doesn't look natural or real at all. The cockpit view almost makes it look like the track is whats moving, and the car is not.
 
I see they still reward you for driving like a maniac... XP system in Shift was WWAAYYY out of whack and annoying...
 
VBR
That NFS Shift 2 video looks rubbish imo, simply because it's totally unrealistic in so much as your vision does not blur or go black & white like that when you drive a real race car & yes I have once before. Think about it for one moment, how useful is it to be able to turn the HUD off & then glance down at the speedometer only to not be able to see it because of the stupid arcade blur effect, STUPID-STUPID-STUPID! I hated the first NFS Shift for similar reasons & all their talk of making more sim-like is just bollocks, I won't be buying it. When are games designers who make sim racers actually going to start simulating reality instead of adding idiotic unrealistic eye candy & gameplay just to sell it to hyper active kids with low bordom thresholds.

Troll style rant over! ;)

:lol:

If I was a stressed as you seem to be I would go to the options and turn it off.
 
For me though, those two videogames are two worlds apart, even though they are about racing. But yeah, a few of S2U's features would be good for GT5, too.
 
Hmmmm sounds more like Forza 3. Forza 4 will rip both these games too shreds mark my words.

If they continue to dumb down physics like they did from F2 -> F3 by introducing permanent steering aids like the famous steering buffer, GT5 has nothing to worry about. Add a kinect to that and case is closed :) But of course I hope that Forza 4(or any other game) will have amazing physics that put GT5 to shame.
 
I'll just leave this for you guys to read to show that the effects Shift 2 has in relation to crashes is not that far from the truth.
http://www.electronicaviation.com/articles/General/142

Sorry, but most race drivers are training to be resistant against heavy forces and impacts.

Look at huge crashes and how often drivers just walk away as when nothing happened.

When I play a racing game, I want to be a good race driver and not the unathletic couch potatoe uncle Sam.
 

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