NFS Shift 2 - Things GT5 could/should implement.

[PzR Slim]

Sorry, but most race drivers are training to be resistant against heavy forces and impacts.

Look at huge crashes and how often drivers just walk away as when nothing happened.

When I play a racing game, I want to be a good race driver and not the unathletic couch potatoe uncle Sam.

I'm sorry but what has your point got to do with anything I wrote. Nobody can train to withstand a potential 12g impact. Fighter pilots who are better trained to withstand the effects of g force than racing drivers have to wear special jackets that fill with air when turning under high g to stop them from blacking out.

Yes, thankfully, most drivers walk away form accidents completely unscathed. But that has everything to do with the safety and strength of the safety cells fitted to racing cars nowadays and nothing to do with their ability to cope with high g impacts.

People were suggesting it wasn't realstic for someones vision to become blurred and black & white during crashes, I provided evidence to the contrary. Your points are totally unrelated.

 

[Ranko_SD]

NFS games are for racing what COD games are for FPS...

They're meant to be fun, and not accurate...

 

[Laughlyn]

since all the talk of Shift/Shift 2 i decided to jump on shift 1 last night. Difference in game style is amazing.
Sure Shift is more 90%sim 10% arcadey but the courses seem to look busier, it looks faster (engine makes it sound faster too) main thing is the camera pan/zooming when u accelerate/brake. other than that i still prefer Shift as a racing game over GT5, as has been said before but GT5 IS pokemon with cars, PD's problem is that its too much effort and grind to actually collect all the cars that people get too bored by the time they have 300-400 cars. I think GT5 is best described as an Interactive Car Encyclopedia that lets u drive the cars more than a racing game

 

[Big Ron]

I'm sorry but what has your point got to do with anything I wrote. Nobody can train to withstand a potential 12g impact. Fighter pilots who are better trained to withstand the effects of g force than racing drivers have to wear special jackets that fill with air when turning under high g to stop them from blacking out.

Yes, thankfully, most drivers walk away form accidents completely unscathed. But that has everything to do with the safety and strength of the safety cells fitted to racing cars nowadays and nothing to do with their ability to cope with high g impacts.

People were suggesting it wasn't realstic for someones vision to become blurred and black & white during crashes, I provided evidence to the contrary. Your points are totally unrelated.

What are you talking about? No race driver ever feels a G-force of 8G like a jet pilot has every day and no race driver will need a G-suit ever nor does his view get blurred while driving.

Humans can resist amazing impacts for a sequence of time without any consequences.

Run against a wall and have a look, if you see black & white after impact 👎

SHIFT2 is definitely exaggerated

 

[PzR Slim]

What are you talking about? No race driver ever feels a G-force of 8G like a jet pilot has every day and no race driver will need a G-suit ever nor does his view get blurred while driving.

Humans can resist amazing impacts for a sequence of time without any consequences.

Run against a wall and have a look, if you see black & white after impact 👎

SHIFT2 is definitely exaggerated

Guess you just chose to ignore the evidence I presented then. I am talking about the effects during a crash.

 

[Big Ron]

Guess you just chose to ignore the evidence I presented then. I am talking about the effects during a crash.

No, I didn´t ignore it. But your article was refered to aircraft pilots more than race driver situations. And aircraft pilots need to resist more than double G-force as race drivers for more than double the time (which is the reason for usage of G-suits)

Of course, you can´t focus on sth. at the moment of impact, because of the shake.

But Shift tries to submit, that accelaration only blurres your view and every little impact knocks you immediately out...and that isn´t true.

 

[Daverytimes]

NFS games are for racing what COD games are for FPS...

They're meant to be fun, and not accurate...

Absolutely right. for all you FPS lovers out there here is a comparison. NFS: Shift can be likened to COD: MW2. Its essentially a fast paced arcade-sim game, Forza can be likened to Battlefield: BC2, It clones itself as a sim and in some ways delivers. GT5 is like Operation Flashpiont: Dragon rising, it delivers as a sim but falls short of some key areas. IRacing, LFS, Netkar Pro e.t.c are like Arma 2, it gives you the full experience (but unlike arma 2 they fall short on content right out of the box)




DAVE

 

[PzR Slim]

No, I didn´t ignore it. But your article was refered to aircraft pilots more than race driver situations. And aircraft pilots need to resist more than double G-force as race drivers for more than double the time (which is the reason for usage of G-suits)

Of course, you can´t focus on sth. at the moment of impact, because of the shake.

But Shift tries to submit, that accelaration only blurres your view and every little impact knocks you immediately out...and that isn´t true.

I was talking about crashes and said as much.

I'll just leave this for you guys to read to show that the effects Shift 2 has in relation to crashes is not that far from the truth.

The article discussed the potential g force in a car accident.

If you have ever experienced a car crash the g-forces could reach up to 12 g for a few seconds.

It also stated the level of g force the average healthy person would need to be subjected to for their vision to be affected.

A normal healthy person would start experience loss of vision at around 5-6 g.

So it's not a giant leap of thought to draw the conclusions that ones vision would be affected by a car accident. Hence why I said.

the effects Shift 2 has in relation to crashes is not that far from the truth.

Note I said 'not far from the truth'.

 

[Big Ron]

A normal healthy person would start experience loss of vision at around 5-6 g.

But you know, that Formula 1-cars can create G-forces of up to 5g and rollercoasters up to 6g?

Your facts are from the science-side only and not in relationship to practice. As your article mentions, the time of impact is amazingly short and trained person (especially in safety suit and helmet) can resist a lot of it without any loss of body functions.

 

[PzR Slim]

But you know, that Formula 1-cars can create G-forces of up to 5g and rollercoasters up to 6g?

Your facts are from the science-side only and not in relationship to practice. As your article mentions, the time of impact is amazingly short and trained person (especially in safety suit and helmet) can resist a lot of it without any loss of body functions.

No my facts state that a car crash can generate a force of upto 12 g for a couple of seconds. This is much higher than a fighter pilot or racing driver experiences in the normal course of their job and therefore it's fairly safe to assume that in high speed crashes the drivers vision would be affected.

Just to reiterate I'm not saying what happens in Shift 2 is reality but it's not as far from reality as some in this thread are claiming.

 

[Devedander]

No, I didn´t ignore it. But your article was refered to aircraft pilots more than race driver situations. And aircraft pilots need to resist more than double G-force as race drivers for more than double the time (which is the reason for usage of G-suits)

I am pretty sure he is referring to the black and white and blurr effect so many are harping on in Shift after a high impact. The effects of sudden high G forces (as are experience in a high speed crash) can do a lot of weird things to you momentarily including mess with your vision.

Of course, you can´t focus on sth. at the moment of impact, because of the shake.

It goes far beyond that... the residual shock can often leave a person disoriented and unrespsonive in many ways. You know on TV how they do that weird blurry effect whenthey do a point of view shot of someone who had been in a wreck? They do that becuase your head is really muddled in such a situation and that is not far off from what you might well be seeing.

But Shift tries to submit, that accelaration only blurres your view and every little impact knocks you immediately out...and that isn´t true.

As for acceleration, have you never heard of tunnel vision?

And as for every little impact, I think that's what they are talking about when they say they want the player to feel and understand the fear and stress that goes into racing... there isn't such a thing as a "little" impact in huge racing machines at over 100 mph... that's what GT has trained you to think with it's sterile environments. Just bumping cars at speed a little on a track can be very jarring.

Have you ever been rear ended at 5 mph in a regular car? It's like getting kicked in the back... imagine what the things on a track are like.

Your exageration on how strongly it impliments the visual effects undermines your point a lot but I can definitely tell you that GT5 is way too tame in high speed impacts. Rather than be shocking or startling they are just frustrating for the time they cost you. In shift they are trying to put more weight behind the event of impacts.

I think that many people have it in their head that GT5 does everything realistically and that differet must be wrong...

 

[schigara]

PD's problem is that its too much effort and grind to actually collect all the cars that people get too bored by the time they have 300-400 cars.

Why anyone would want to collect all the cars, I will never understand. A bunch of them are crap. I had gotten up to 350 cars and noticed it was taking longer to find the car I actually wanted to use so I began getting rid of junk.

I managed to widdle my garage down to about 275 in a short amount of time and plan to go back and spend more time getting rid of crap cars I know I will never use.

 

[Big Ron]

I am pretty sure he is referring to the black and white and blurr effect so many are harping on in Shift after a high impact. The effects of sudden high G forces (as are experience in a high speed crash) can do a lot of weird things to you momentarily including mess with your vision.



It goes far beyond that... the residual shock can often leave a person disoriented and unrespsonive in many ways. You know on TV how they do that weird blurry effect whenthey do a point of view shot of someone who had been in a wreck? They do that becuase your head is really muddled in such a situation and that is not far off from what you might well be seeing.



As for acceleration, have you never heard of tunnel vision?

And as for every little impact, I think that's what they are talking about when they say they want the player to feel and understand the fear and stress that goes into racing... there isn't such a thing as a "little" impact in huge racing machines at over 100 mph... that's what GT has trained you to think with it's sterile environments. Just bumping cars at speed a little on a track can be very jarring.

Have you ever been rear ended at 5 mph in a regular car? It's like getting kicked in the back... imagine what the things on a track are like.

Your exageration on how strongly it impliments the visual effects undermines your point a lot but I can definitely tell you that GT5 is way too tame in high speed impacts. Rather than be shocking or startling they are just frustrating for the time they cost you. In shift they are trying to put more weight behind the event of impacts.

In my opinion, SHIFT is way too harsh with it´s effects and submits, that a driver can´t resist anything.

And if you believe in tunnel vision at high speed.....it isn´t as someone tried to convey you. It is just a matter of training, because you know: a human is a creature of habit.

A run my motorbike at 250 km/h on the highway and there isn´t any tunnel-blurry-thing-view. Just a bit shaking because of my low-budget-helmet and the bad aerodynamic.

No my facts state that a car crash can generate a force of upto 12 g for a couple of seconds. This is much higher than a fighter pilot or racing driver experiences in the normal course of their job and therefore it's fairly safe to assume that in high speed crashes the drivers vision would be affected.

Just to reiterate I'm not saying what happens in Shift 2 is reality but it's not as far from reality as some in this thread are claiming.

Yeah, Shift tries to give you a feeling, how it could feel, but in a strange way.

And you are right. Impacts of 12g are amaingl high and you can be happy to survive that. But your article also sais, that g-force from 5 to 6g can effect a loss of vision. But that can´t be true, if you are a trained person.

 

[Devedander]

In my opinion, SHIFT is way too harsh with it´s effects and submits, that a driver can´t resist anything.

I will say again that statements like this make me think of videos of the Force Dynamics motion simulators... where someone always says "a car doesn't actually tip like that, it's more like a spaceship!".

I think often visual effects in a game have to be extreme to overcome the fact we have no kinetic simulators.

One of the biggest hurdles to overcome in a game is a sense of speed -when no physical input tell your body you are moving fast, just darwing it on screen is not the same. That's why those rides at amusement parks that tilt your chair along with the image are so much more effective.

Since we don't have that, what they have to work with is used to deliver the message that is missing. It's in no way as good but that's why I think they do.

For instance everyone who uses my G27 with GT5 immedialy says "that wheel is totally unrealistic, it's not that hard to turn a wheel in a car" to which I have to respond the wheel is simulating how hard it would be if you were fighting g forces at the same time (something our brains kind of compensate for when remembering making a turn in a car) and also gives extra feedback so you can feel the weight of the car transfering.

While your actual wheel might not do the same in a car, the overall effect on your arms an shoulder muscles would be similar and that's why they do it that way.

Same with the OTT visual feedback in shift... realistic video doesn't impart the same feeling as real. That's why you can watch racing videos on youtube all day, but then jump in for a high speed ride at the track and your heart starts pounding.

They are trying to overcome that shortcomming of the fact we dont' all have a Dbox in our living room.

And if you believe in tunnel vision at high speed.....it isn´t as someone tried to convey you. It is just a matter of training, because you know: a human is a creature of habit.

I have gotten tunnel vision going only 125 in a car and quite a few of my biker friends report tunnel vision while biking.

Not in a crazy millenium falcon going to warp kind of way really but rather that the are of your vision that you focus on is much smaller due to how your body acts when needing to respond to that speed.

For instance driving down a small road at 15 mph, I am taking in everything, scenery, I can see my sun visor, heck I can even see my legs and both mirrors without taking my eyes off the road.

Get up to speed however the windshield suddenfly fills all my view... I don't see/notice the periphery nearly as much anymore, not because I have suddenly leaned forward or my eyes have gotten smaller, but because my brain has focused on the important part directly ahead of me and indeed things in my perpiphery start to blur as just a matter of speed.

This is reproduce in shift by blurring out your car and periphery so your the natural response of your eyes is to focus more on what's still sharp.

This effect of blurring surroundings is used in photography all the time to force a viewers eyes to focus on one eliment.

A run my motorbike at 250 km/h on the highway and there isn´t any tunnel-blurry-thing-view. Just a bit shaking because of my low-budget-helmet and the bad aerodynamic.

Maybe you personally don't... I can't say... but I can say that many of my biker friends report the some sort of reduced field of vision at speed.

And you are right. Impacts of 12g are amaingl high and you can be happy to survive that. But your article also sais, that g-force from 5 to 6g can effect a loss of vision. But that can´t be true, if you are a trained person.

It sounds like you are speculating from a position of no experience. I have never been in a race car crash, but I tend to trust what the experts tell me when they do, and if EA has real race car drivers playing this game and they aren't saying that's ridiculously unrealisitc maybe it is true after all? And while a person can train to overcome shock (the same way after a while you get better at driving through blurred black and white vision in Shift), I think there is a physical limit and effect you simply can't overcome. For instance you cannot train your capillaries in your eyeballs not to burst under high pressure...

I took a spill on a mountain bike once, pretty bad (broken the crap out of my arm and went full head over heals) and when I landed I was not seeing black and white per se, but I wasn't seeing right either... at the time I could see fine, my eyes worked fine, but I wasn't taking in much info and there probably could have been a moonwalking bear going by and I would not have picked up on it... how you simualte that on screen is kind of hard directly, so I think Shift is going for the next best thing.

 

[schigara]

A run my motorbike at 250 km/h on the highway and there isn´t any tunnel-blurry-thing-view.

Yeah, I never notice any tunnel vision or blurring at 250kph/155mph either. I did, however, begin to notice tunnel vision and blurring once I past 175mph and finally maxed out at 185 on my 2003 ZX7-R(slightly modded). Try getting a lot closer to 300kph and you will see I mean.

 

[Fredde_swe]

Which kind of g-forces are you talking about? Because it's a huge difference between horizontal and vertical g-force.

The human body can handle horizontal g-force much better than vertical. 12g horizontal shouldn't be a problem.

The reason why you will loss your vision is because of the vertical g-force cause all your blood will either be pushed downward or upward and you will faint, that's why you need G-suit in a jet plane.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in a race car you will never experience any vertical g-forces? Except if you are flying.

 

[mykem]

Which kind of g-forces are you talking about? Because it's a huge difference between horizontal and vertical g-force.

The human body can handle horizontal g-force much better than vertical.

The reason why you will loss your vision is because of the vertical g-force cause all your blood will either be pushed downward or upward and you will faint, that's why you need G-suit in a jet plane.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in a race car you will never experience any vertical g-forces? Except if you are flying.

How about a bump on the road- that's vertical g-force. That's when you feel that sinking feeling in your stomach. A quick ascent or descent at higher speed produces vertical g-force as well.

 

[Fredde_swe]

How about a bump on the road- that's vertical g-force. That's when you feel that sinking feeling in your stomach. A quick ascent or descent at higher speed produces vertical g-force as well.

Yes you have right, but I'm pretty sure you won't experience 12g (vertical) because of a bumpy road, or in an accident

 

[RacerPaul]

since all the talk of Shift/Shift 2 i decided to jump on shift 1 last night. Difference in game style is amazing.
Sure Shift is more 90%sim 10% arcadey but the courses seem to look busier, it looks faster (engine makes it sound faster too) main thing is the camera pan/zooming when u accelerate/brake. other than that i still prefer Shift as a racing game over GT5, as has been said before but GT5 IS pokemon with cars, PD's problem is that its too much effort and grind to actually collect all the cars that people get too bored by the time they have 300-400 cars. I think GT5 is best described as an Interactive Car Encyclopedia that lets you drive the cars more than a racing game

Very good post, imo 👍 I think that pretty much sums up GT5, and I say that as a fan who enjoys it very much

I have Shift and I enjoy it very much too. It has a visceral feel that GT5 doesn't come anywhere near. No doubt Shift2 will be more
of the same, so I'll be getting it

 

[carlosy]

For instance everyone who uses my G27 with GT5 immedialy says "that wheel is totally unrealistic, it's not that hard to turn a wheel in a car" to which I have to respond the wheel is simulating how hard it would be if you were fighting g forces at the same time (something our brains kind of compensate for when remembering making a turn in a car) and also gives extra feedback so you can feel the weight of the car transfering.

While your actual wheel might not do the same in a car, the overall effect on your arms an shoulder muscles would be similar and that's why they do it that way.

Honestly, that's the first time I hear that. I allways thought that the forces on a ffb wheel should replicate the forces like on a real wheel. Not some additional strength to simulate the g-forces I had to fight with my arms in fast corners.

 

[Devedander]

Honestly, that's the first time I hear that. I allways thought that the forces on a ffb wheel should replicate the forces like on a real wheel. Not some additional strength to simulate the g-forces I had to fight with my arms in fast corners.

I was driving an MR2 in the game and my buddy also has one and the wheel feels much harder to turn while doing mid to low speed turns than than the real one does strictly on wheel resistance. However when turning in the car I am being accelerated towards the outside of the curve which means I am simultaneously fighting agains the g forces of the turn and turning the wheel the opposite way.

To me this makes the wheel feel kind of like it's taking much more force to turn it than it really is as the overall feel is I have to pull my body hard right to turn right and my only physical resistance is the wheel.

Also sometimes I feel shifts in car weight that I don't think would be so dramatic IRL and would be heavily damped out by the power steering in the car, however the feeling kind of makes my body feel like it would if it were feeling the car shift around me by virtue of the same relative resistance feel on the wheel.

 

[Laughlyn]

I was driving an MR2 in the game and my buddy also has one and the wheel feels much harder to turn while doing mid to low speed turns than than the real one does strictly on wheel resistance. However when turning in the car I am being accelerated towards the outside of the curve which means I am simultaneously fighting agains the g forces of the turn and turning the wheel the opposite way.

To me this makes the wheel feel kind of like it's taking much more force to turn it than it really is as the overall feel is I have to pull my body hard right to turn right and my only physical resistance is the wheel.

Also sometimes I feel shifts in car weight that I don't think would be so dramatic IRL and would be heavily damped out by the power steering in the car, however the feeling kind of makes my body feel like it would if it were feeling the car shift around me by virtue of the same relative resistance feel on the wheel.

What assists do u have setup? i dont use a wheel but most cars have assisted steering so if u have teh assisted steering in game set to off then the steering will be a lot heavier (like real cars ussed to be) turning assisted steering to mild or full/heavy whatever may ease it up

 

[Destinkeys]

Visceral... I like that word. It pretty much sums up everything that Shift is, and GT5 isn't.

BTW, while we are talking about crash effects, how about everyone criticizing S2U for being exaggerated, start talking about how GT5 is under-represented, too. Because, if you are going to relegate a game to the used bin for not being ACCURATE, an error in either direction is equally bad.

You see, that almost defines the word 'fanboy'... someone willing to accept the very same flaws in HIS favorite whatever that he lambastes in everything else.

Take physics, for instance. Many aspects of it in GT5 are just plain WRONG... From lift-off oversteer in FF's, to hugely exaggerated drafting strengths, to MR's that drive like on marbles. But few of the GTDF (the GT Defense Force) will talk about any of that while they slam a game they haven't even PLAYED.

Turn as bright a spotlight on your OWN game's flaws, and you quickly see that not ONE of them has it right, yet.

 

[Devedander]

What assists do u have setup? i dont use a wheel but most cars have assisted steering so if u have teh assisted steering in game set to off then the steering will be a lot heavier (like real cars ussed to be) turning assisted steering to mild or full/heavy whatever may ease it up

I have a G27 and have tested all the settings but I don't think it makes a difference with the G27... same was true playing GT4... the wheel doens't seem to simulate a real wheel in terms of resistance and response, however once you learn to read the feedback, it tells you a lot... kind of like how the rumble in the DS3 tells you a lot once you learn what each kind of rumble means.

 

[Laughlyn]

I have a G27 and have tested all the settings but I don't think it makes a difference with the G27... same was true playing GT4... the wheel doens't seem to simulate a real wheel in terms of resistance and response, however once you learn to read the feedback, it tells you a lot... kind of like how the rumble in the DS3 tells you a lot once you learn what each kind of rumble means.

ah nice one. i thought that with sum of the higher value wheels it would read the steering assist setting and adjust the weight of the wheel, be nice if it did. like i say, i've never used a wheel on a GT game so i dont know how they work, was worth a shot

 

[Fredde_swe]

Visceral... I like that word. It pretty much sums up everything that Shift is, and GT5 isn't.

BTW, while we are talking about crash effects, how about everyone criticizing S2U for being exaggerated, start talking about how GT5 is under-represented, too. Because, if you are going to relegate a game to the used bin for not being ACCURATE, an error in either direction is equally bad.

You see, that almost defines the word 'fanboy'... someone willing to accept the very same flaws in HIS favorite whatever that he lambastes in everything else.

Take physics, for instance. Many aspects of it in GT5 are just plain WRONG... From lift-off oversteer in FF's, to hugely exaggerated drafting strengths, to MR's that drive like on marbles. But few of the GTDF (the GT Defense Force) will talk about any of that while they slam a game they haven't even PLAYED.

Turn as bright a spotlight on your OWN game's flaws, and you quickly see that not ONE of them has it right, yet.

So you need to say something negative about GT5 in every thread, or you are a fanboy?

No, GT5 isn't perfect. But I prefer GT5's under represented crash effects compared with NFS S2 exaggerated, that's one of the reasons why I play GT5 and not Shift. So why should I want the same exaggerated crash effects in GT5? Yes, there is features from Shift I would like to see in GT5, but the crash effects isn't one of them.

If you want a game with overdone crash effects, grid girls, arcade physics, overly shaky helmet cam, why not buy Shift from the beginning.

 

[Destinkeys]

There's something negative to SAY about GT5 in most threads. I ain't making 🤬 up, that's for sure. Which those commenting on S2U before even driving it certainly are.

If I hated GT5, I would simply trade it in. But PD is dangling patching it under our noses like a crack flavored carrot, but pulling the rug out from under us every time. Life would be simpler if PD would just say 'we are done with GT5, and are working on GT6 exclusively' and I could just dump it once and for all.

So you prefer arcade unreality as much as me...! It is just which end of the scale we prefer. Trouble is, of course, racing cars IS visceral, IS noisy and violent, IS a kick in the pants. So, if a racing game has to err, that's the direction it needs to err in, IMO.

But don't let that stop you from enjoying your calm noodling around in a vacuum cleaner. Me, I'll be RACING..!

 

[Stradivis]

I guess every racing game should learn from the competition. IMO, Forza is the best thing that ever happened to GT.

I really hope Shift 2 comes and delivers it. And that a new TOCA happens. And that Forza 4 blows us away. And that GT6 learns from all the features and improvements of all those games.

Healthy competition, I say.

 

[Destinkeys]

Only if you don't ignore it. Can't say hardly anything from FM3, Shift 1, TOCA or any other racing game made it into GT5, and most of what was great about GT4 got dropped...

PD have come to believe their own hype.

EDIT... Actually, scratch that. If PD believed they had such a great game in GT4, they wouldn't have changed it so much. Hard to figure out WHAT PD are thinking (if at all).

 

[Devedander]

I guess every racing game should learn from the competition. IMO, Forza is the best thing that ever happened to GT.

Forza SHOULD have been the best thing to happen to GT... but then PD seems to have completely ignored Forza basically skipping possibly one of the biggest opportunities PD has ever had to get free R&D...