NFS Shift 2 Unleashed - Details

[tribolik]

To be honest I'm not holding out hope for the physics of it either. You can see it all over the guy from insidesimracing's face when talking about it, he's being as kind as he can with the words he uses but his face just screams 'not a sim'.

The whole Shift2 being an accurate sim is just marketing, it may dupe a few sim lovers into buying it and it will give the people who don't really want a punishing sim but like to kid them self they are driving close to reality that warm cosy feeling inside.

The market for a good sim may not be the majority, but it's not a small amount of people. If someone produces the definitive sim sure your casual none car lovers may steer clear of it, but every one who really wants something that truly captures driving will flock to it.

Iracing falls down with it's pricing structure, graphics and lack of cars. What the hardcore want is basically GT5/Forza/Shift without the concessions it makes to none sim fans. If a game does that across all 3 platforms it will sell in enough volume to make up for it's lack of 'mass appeal'.

Yes I saw is face too but I dont carry too much faith in what that one has to say because he loved grid and to me grid was much less sim then shift.
If it had been the other guy to do that face I would be worried

 

[Imari]

You can't standardise innovation though, it's still using facts and figures to make a decision and that can only lead to mediocrity. True innovation comes from someone having the balls to go against the grain and take a chance on something they have an intuition will be great.

I'd say that there's no need to innovate in the genre as it stands now. There's plenty of room to be the game that takes what Forza and GT have tried to do, and do it PROPERLY. That's a guaranteed sell, justifiable to your stockholders, no risk, etc.

We'd all like to see innovation, but innovation comes after you get the fundamentals right. The closest to a fundamentally right racing game this gen has been Forza 3 (IMO obviously), and that still left a lot to be desired.

 

[Daniel_Elessar]

Going to pre-order tomorrow, Only thing I hope is a good support for wheels like fanatec/g25-27/ dfgt etc. That was a major flaw in the first game, you needed hours of tweaking before it would feel okay. The hands-on previews(?) sound nice and get me very excited about this game. I hope they would include SOme 1970-90 race cars like the C-groupe. The Sound was also a big overdrive but very great.
Could it became better>more exciting then gt5/forza3?

 

[NotThePrez]

Just found this. Shows some GT3 racing, and a new track.

 

[BigYoSpeck]

I'd say that there's no need to innovate in the genre as it stands now. There's plenty of room to be the game that takes what Forza and GT have tried to do, and do it PROPERLY. That's a guaranteed sell, justifiable to your stockholders, no risk, etc.

We'd all like to see innovation, but innovation comes after you get the fundamentals right. The closest to a fundamentally right racing game this gen has been Forza 3 (IMO obviously), and that still left a lot to be desired.

"Fundamentals are the crutch of the talentless"
Kenny Powers

You can always innovate at something. Presenting a car game in the way the original Gran Turismo had never been done before. Trust me there would be something a game maker could do that we currently can't imagine (otherwise we would be the rich ass designers) that would just seem to make sense to play.

The Shift games innovate in a lot of ways of trying to capture the hectic sense of driving which I commend. If they can get that combined with a realistic game I'd be all over it.

 

[barny0111]

Dev's (or whoever has the final say) wont put out a true sim, simply because they can alter it a bit and cash in on the casual gamers.

I am also dying to see a true sim on a console. But I have to admit that it might not happen. Its simply a cost/benifit thing. And in this day and age, money can be tight, and bosses can be tight asses. Any programmers out there want to take a chance...... anybody.

Fingers crossed for shift 2.

 

[HeadsoupBob]

Here's a quote from an SMS guy, answering some of the above concerns, sums it up:

"SMS
Thanks Todd. We'd love to do a crazy sim with crazy sim features down to the fluid dynamic level. The problem is publishers don't want to pay for them right now. We're aiming to beat GT5 in the sim stakes on the consoles though this time."

Source: http://www.virtualr.net/need-for-speed-shift-2-unleashed-six-new-previews/#comments

In the comments section.

Funnily, if SMS were given the time that PD had to make Shift 2, I'm sure all that would be in without question. I Don't know how PD advanced so little after so long

 

[Imari]

"Fundamentals are the crutch of the talentless"
Kenny Powers

You can always innovate at something. Presenting a car game in the way the original Gran Turismo had never been done before. Trust me there would be something a game maker could do that we currently can't imagine (otherwise we would be the rich ass designers) that would just seem to make sense to play.

The Shift games innovate in a lot of ways of trying to capture the hectic sense of driving which I commend. If they can get that combined with a realistic game I'd be all over it.

Don't misunderstand me. I'd love to see the next big innovation in racing games as much as the next guy.

But what I understand from your posts is that you think that they're making a mistake by developing a game for a known market rather than shooting for a new and innovative game. I could be wrong and that's me putting words in your mouth, and if that's so I apologise. I agree that it's great to see something new and innovative, but it not NECESSARY to make a great game. You CAN always innovate, but you don't always NEED to.

As I said previously, there's plenty to improve with the status quo. And you can hardly blame the publishers for taking the safe route, the quote HeadsoupBob found above demonstrates the attitude of the company perfectly. These people aren't the creative force behind the game, but they ultimately hold the purse strings. Until Shift becomes a big enough franchise (hello, GT5), they will continue to have to justify their design based on known factors.

I don't necessarily condone this, but that's the realities of commercial development. Purely artistic development is somewhat different, where you're not under pressure to get X amount of return on the investment. As with most things in life, the reality is a balance of the two. But games tend to be pretty heavy on the commercial side, particularly when done by major publishing houses.

 

[boxox]

It's also a matter of them having several years of SimBin usage stats to work from and seeing that very very few people ever actually play a race longer than single or very low double digit laps if they're given a choice. Same thing with pit stops too. Most people simply restart or give up if their car is damaged so badly they'll lose. By most read a good 90-95%. And this surely comes out in EA's internal focus testing as well.

Those features are not amazingly simple to implement into gameplay in a way that has any consistent quality, the amount of problems Codemasters ran into with F1-2010 in that regard is instructive. Even GTR2's pitting was far from flawless (especially once - like codemasters - you then have to build a system the AI uses) and a lot of those issues took from GTR>Race On to fix (4 and a half something years). Very easy to just make something that damages the car on impact - hell, that's in Shift 1. Gameplay design around it on the other hand... you can see they put a lot of work into it in Shift 1 in code and then it just stops, no data built for it. Very hard to get the logic/script part right.

So, with that in mind, and given that 5%-10% of customers actually want to use those features and about <1% will ever base a decision of whether to buy the game on damage/pits/long races, it is pretty much a no-brainer of where to spend the money instead.

 

[BigYoSpeck]

Don't misunderstand me. I'd love to see the next big innovation in racing games as much as the next guy.

But what I understand from your posts is that you think that they're making a mistake by developing a game for a known market rather than shooting for a new and innovative game. I could be wrong and that's me putting words in your mouth, and if that's so I apologise. I agree that it's great to see something new and innovative, but it not NECESSARY to make a great game. You CAN always innovate, but you don't always NEED to.

As I said previously, there's plenty to improve with the status quo. And you can hardly blame the publishers for taking the safe route, the quote HeadsoupBob found above demonstrates the attitude of the company perfectly. These people aren't the creative force behind the game, but they ultimately hold the purse strings. Until Shift becomes a big enough franchise (hello, GT5), they will continue to have to justify their design based on known factors.

I don't necessarily condone this, but that's the realities of commercial development. Purely artistic development is somewhat different, where you're not under pressure to get X amount of return on the investment. As with most things in life, the reality is a balance of the two. But games tend to be pretty heavy on the commercial side, particularly when done by major publishing houses.

I wouldn't say it's wrong to make a safe, sure fire hit game. NFS:Hot Pursuit just sold a bucket load.

I just think they are also missing a trick not being daring. EA has it's cash cows and does release other games that are on the riskier side of things, if any company would come through in this genre I see it being them.

 

[Destinkeys]

Given that most REALLY serious 'sim' drivers don't even acknowledge Forza or GT5 as true 'sims', I think we are getting crossed up trying to shoehorn everything into a two game model... The 'sim' and 'not sim'.

I think, though, that we have much more of a three game model. Sim, Arcade, and Semi-Sim.

And Forza and GT5 occupy the middle class. As will Shift 2. Some Sim-like elements (handling), some arcade.

I have said forever that, yes, I realize that probably the vast majority of the market has no CLUE how a race car handles, or even the rules and dynamics of the sport itself. So I always try to emphasize that things like pitstops (or if you can't model all that fluff, at least pull off the track and stop for ten seconds to get fuel and new tires magically), full damage that only a pitstop fixes, track obstacles being removed, tire wear and ramming penalties be there as ONLY an option for lobby creators, or players in single player mode.

Shift will get returned to the stores even faster than GT5 if all of this stuff is mandatory. But a racing franchise lives or dies on the backs of the long-term enthusiast. Kids buying Shift 2 will mostly be gone as soon as they finish the single player mode (or get along it as far as their casual skills allow) and will be off to the NEXT racing game, arcade or otherwise. It's an ADD generation out there, playing games.

But GT5 got its huge start based on the buzz from those STILL playing GT4 and GT5p, after five years or more. You think that Blur 2 is going to get the same reception? What SMS do to allow Shift 2 players that DO want to race clean, and give the title legs will count JUST as much as giving the casual player enough fun he doesn't return it in a week, and making it easy enough he plays it until the next game comes out. If SMS can make Shift 2 the kind of game that GT5 players REALLY want to play (they don't want to play GT5... they just do because it's the only PS3 alternative that even makes a serious nod to sim-like handling) they'll play it forever and make Shift 3 a guaranteed success, rather than Shift 2 being the last chance to get it right, which is closer to the truth..

I truly believe that if Shift 2 DOES get the physics as good as GT5, it doesn't NEED iRacing quality physics. That's not the competition. I tell you the truth. If Shift 1 had physics as good as GT5 (and no better) I would STILL happily be playing it online to this day, and wouldn't have bothered with GT5 at all. About ten weeks with GT5 has soured me to the game. Yes, love the handling... HATE the game! Obviously, SMS know how to make a fun game. All they ever needed to do was graft on decent physics, and PD are a distant memory.

I've said before, physics and FUN have nothing to do with each other. GT5 has great physics, but it doesn't make it a fun game. Shift was a fun game WITHOUT great physics. Put the two together, and you have a game that will kickstart a dynasty as long lived as GT.

 

[isamu]

Given that most REALLY serious 'sim' drivers don't even acknowledge Forza or GT5 as true 'sims', I think we are getting crossed up trying to shoehorn everything into a two game model... The 'sim' and 'not sim'.

I think, though, that we have much more of a three game model. Sim, Arcade, and Semi-Sim.

And Forza and GT5 occupy the middle class. As will Shift 2. Some Sim-like elements (handling), some arcade.

I have said forever that, yes, I realize that probably the vast majority of the market has no CLUE how a race car handles, or even the rules and dynamics of the sport itself. So I always try to emphasize that things like pitstops (or if you can't model all that fluff, at least pull off the track and stop for ten seconds to get fuel and new tires magically), full damage that only a pitstop fixes, track obstacles being removed, tire wear and ramming penalties be there as ONLY an option for lobby creators, or players in single player mode.

Shift will get returned to the stores even faster than GT5 if all of this stuff is mandatory. But a racing franchise lives or dies on the backs of the long-term enthusiast. Kids buying Shift 2 will mostly be gone as soon as they finish the single player mode (or get along it as far as their casual skills allow) and will be off to the NEXT racing game, arcade or otherwise. It's an ADD generation out there, playing games.

But GT5 got its huge start based on the buzz from those STILL playing GT4 and GT5p, after five years or more. You think that Blur 2 is going to get the same reception? What SMS do to allow Shift 2 players that DO want to race clean, and give the title legs will count JUST as much as giving the casual player enough fun he doesn't return it in a week, and making it easy enough he plays it until the next game comes out. If SMS can make Shift 2 the kind of game that GT5 players REALLY want to play (they don't want to play GT5... they just do because it's the only PS3 alternative that even makes a serious nod to sim-like handling) they'll play it forever and make Shift 3 a guaranteed success, rather than Shift 2 being the last chance to get it right, which is closer to the truth..

I truly believe that if Shift 2 DOES get the physics as good as GT5, it doesn't NEED iRacing quality physics. That's not the competition. I tell you the truth. If Shift 1 had physics as good as GT5 (and no better) I would STILL happily be playing it online to this day, and wouldn't have bothered with GT5 at all. About ten weeks with GT5 has soured me to the game. Yes, love the handling... HATE the game! Obviously, SMS know how to make a fun game. All they ever needed to do was graft on decent physics, and PD are a distant memory.

I've said before, physics and FUN have nothing to do with each other. GT5 has great physics, but it doesn't make it a fun game. Shift was a fun game WITHOUT great physics. Put the two together, and you have a game that will kickstart a dynasty as long lived as GT.

Give this man a cigar!

No....give him a box of 'em! *round of applause*

 

[daz1976]

Given that most REALLY serious 'sim' drivers don't even acknowledge Forza or GT5 as true 'sims', I think we are getting crossed up trying to shoehorn everything into a two game model... The 'sim' and 'not sim'.

I think, though, that we have much more of a three game model. Sim, Arcade, and Semi-Sim.

And Forza and GT5 occupy the middle class. As will Shift 2. Some Sim-like elements (handling), some arcade.

I have said forever that, yes, I realize that probably the vast majority of the market has no CLUE how a race car handles, or even the rules and dynamics of the sport itself. So I always try to emphasize that things like pitstops (or if you can't model all that fluff, at least pull off the track and stop for ten seconds to get fuel and new tires magically), full damage that only a pitstop fixes, track obstacles being removed, tire wear and ramming penalties be there as ONLY an option for lobby creators, or players in single player mode.

Shift will get returned to the stores even faster than GT5 if all of this stuff is mandatory. But a racing franchise lives or dies on the backs of the long-term enthusiast. Kids buying Shift 2 will mostly be gone as soon as they finish the single player mode (or get along it as far as their casual skills allow) and will be off to the NEXT racing game, arcade or otherwise. It's an ADD generation out there, playing games.

But GT5 got its huge start based on the buzz from those STILL playing GT4 and GT5p, after five years or more. You think that Blur 2 is going to get the same reception? What SMS do to allow Shift 2 players that DO want to race clean, and give the title legs will count JUST as much as giving the casual player enough fun he doesn't return it in a week, and making it easy enough he plays it until the next game comes out. If SMS can make Shift 2 the kind of game that GT5 players REALLY want to play (they don't want to play GT5... they just do because it's the only PS3 alternative that even makes a serious nod to sim-like handling) they'll play it forever and make Shift 3 a guaranteed success, rather than Shift 2 being the last chance to get it right, which is closer to the truth..

I truly believe that if Shift 2 DOES get the physics as good as GT5, it doesn't NEED iRacing quality physics. That's not the competition. I tell you the truth. If Shift 1 had physics as good as GT5 (and no better) I would STILL happily be playing it online to this day, and wouldn't have bothered with GT5 at all. About ten weeks with GT5 has soured me to the game. Yes, love the handling... HATE the game! Obviously, SMS know how to make a fun game. All they ever needed to do was graft on decent physics, and PD are a distant memory.

I've said before, physics and FUN have nothing to do with each other. GT5 has great physics, but it doesn't make it a fun game. Shift was a fun game WITHOUT great physics. Put the two together, and you have a game that will kickstart a dynasty as long lived as GT.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[amar212]

But a racing franchise lives or dies on the backs of the long-term enthusiast. .

Many conclusions you have drawn are pretty much wrong, but this one is 100% right.

I really fail to understand how exactly could a game like Shift produce it's longevity based on content which is nothing but cars and tracks and no real options and content for "long-term enthusiast" (presuming that "long-term" means "more demanding consumers" which implies "hard-core community").

I also fail to understand how can game that makes it's physics less-realistic and it's "long-term" options more vague become interesting for those type of players.

Although I understand your disappointment in GT5 "game-wise", I really see no other contender that can even come close to it "long-term" wise.

It would be great world in which all driving-games would evolve corresponding to the possibilities of today's technology. But they just do not. I describe that present moment as "Paradox Point".

This is the main problem of the overall driving genre and in future it will be even more evident.

On one side, you have something that no other genre has in cumulative: ability to portray the essence of your genre up to almost being "real" experience. Force feedback technology, processor power for graphics/sounds/AI and online racing pretty much gives unprecedented package where adequate implementation of "real" details can produce most immersive experience of all genres.

On the other side you have market, where people who actually wants to have "real" experience are distant minority when numbers needed to make the title profitable are in context.

As developer/publisher I have all tools and tech on my disposal to make perfect simulation. But who will actually drive it? How can I make it accessible to majority/casuals? Unfortunately, the answer is not "make a scalable difficulty".

That is the exact place of the Paradox Point - you can also describe it as a pure Prisoner's Dilemma too.

If you make game with option of "Real", you have a problem. Average Joe wants to play it on "Real". He doesn't want to play it on "Normal". Because Average Joe knows he's the best driver out there. He can beat Burnout, NFS, whatever. And he's the "Real Deal Joe". Then Average Joe dives into "Real" and in first corner he realize he's not Real Deal Joe. Average Joe turns furious and shovels the game. Because that game can't give him the feel of being the Real Deal. He doesn't want to drive on "Normal" or "Standard" or whatever.

And there is the Paradox - you can make the game real as "Real", but making it so will alienate majority of players. And it even goes complex than that, deep into structure of rewarding.

That problem is evident in Gran Turismo 5 Seasonal Events. When Seasonal Events had HP/weight/tire-type restrictions casual majority of players were shouting their mouths about Events being "hard", "impossible", "rigged", "bugged", "broken", etc. - usual internet whine. But unfortunately, those casual majority is the main population that plays the game.

Two weeks later restrictions were gone. Praising of casuals begun big-time (fueled with exploiting the dupe-system to Jupiter) while hard-core population suddenly felt cheated. Than came the proposal "make Events scalable - give less XP/Cr for usage of assists and driving without restrictions, but award those who drive without assists and comply the restrictions". And that is the second place of Paradox Point.

If you reward the hard-core more, you again make casuals to feel incompetent. And again you're making yourself a problem because Average Joe doesn't want to get only 200,000 Cr of his drive to 1st position with aids-ON. He wants full 1.500,000 Cr for aids-OFF, Gold Trophy, 1st place everywhere and feeling he's Real Deal Joe.

You can now argue above with highlighting FM3 system where usage of assists lead to removal of Cr/XP bonuses, but since the actual physics model was catered to favor the controller, actual Paradox Point was removed due to overall limit of complexity of handling.

I see no way to resolve the Paradox Point.

Current state of gaming in total has abandoned any traces of old-school where difficulty and skill were determining the actual accomplishment. In my driving community we have numerous discussions about what we want from driving games but we're aware that times where needs of serious players were important are long gone.

Shift can't solve Paradox Point either, nor it will even try.

Shift 2 is just laying foundations for future development of the Shift franchise, probably on next-gen platforms.

EA is pretty much forward-thinker and they know what will happen with the racing genre in the future. Only established franchises in next 3 years will be able to commercially take the next step that will inevitably come on the next-gen - making driving-games an online platform, such as iRacing is now.

iRacing "model" is the future of the genre, where we will witness both Gran Turismo and Forza heading full-online, dividing in two separate incarnations: retail disc (media) games for casual players and corresponding subscription-based online community (such as iRacing is today). Disc (media) game will have the content for online and basic online features (such as we already have today in GT5 or FM2/3), but the real money and development of game lays in "platform". It is the only and logical way to assure the foundations interesting for long-term enthusiasts, and GT5 offers a great insight of development to that model. Foundations GT5 have built clearly indicates such transition is already in the works.

Be assured that planning for such broadening of the genre is already been made and that EA is preparing for jump on that train.

Making driving games an "platform" is the only way to solve the Paradox Point of the genre and save it from "casualisation". Actual single-player structure as we know it will certainly remain on disc (media) games, but only way to prolong and expand the game in long-term will be as described above.

Substantial amounts of money lays in hands of hard-core community where retail of single-media (60 something-currency) is less important than long-term revenue based on subscription model.

And at this point, Shift franchise is developing in that direction (AutoLog being most interesting feature platform-wise, and I am sure that all others will copy in the future) and we will have to wait for few more years to see will the "long-term enthusiasts" embrace it.

However, at this point, Shift franchise still have a very distant road to travel, because it still lacks all the features that could be embraced by "long-terms", but I guess it is just matter of actual franchise-development in this point of time.

It is worth to notice that this is "already" the second game, and both of Shift's rivals (from their perspective, I do not think that at this point Polyphony, nor Turn10 sees Shift as their true rival) have achieved much more in terms of market and player-acceptance with their second iterations in their point in time.

If Shift franchise manages to produce a games that can satisfy "long-terms" it will be a success. But if their creative vision lays in creating a pseudo-simulation based on current markers and do not adopt for "platform", than I see shift as just another nice racing-game made to enjoy in between playing "long-term" titles such as Gran Turismo and possibly Forza series.

 

[HeadsoupBob]

^ You forget that GT and Forza were the first on each platform and had no competition, which makes it a lot easier to build an audience... Shift is competing in the same space and if reviews and community impressions go well has a very real possibility of taking the crown. Being across all platforms gives them even better reach, which (assuming the game is good) give a larger audience to promote and recommend the game (sales).

It's all about options, give people the ability to make the game what they want, without penalising anyone for choosing their style. Shift's idea of rewarding the player regardless of winning or not means those who choose 'elite' mode, without having the skills, can still progress and build their ability. Give the same rewards with assists on in single player, leave it to the leaderboards to separate by assists, and online lobbies to choose allowable assists, keep everyone happy!

You mention that just tracks and cars (with a good driving model) won't build long term commitment, but that's exactly what GT and Forza have built long term success with. In PC land, making the game moddable is the best way to do that, Shift on pc is still growing in popularity on the modding forums, and I'm enjoying it more than any other racer I've played before with the mods!

 

[amar212]

We are basically saying the same thing and I agree with you.

But cars and tracks with good handling model will not suffice for console players in long-term if they're not accompanied with demanding options of real-life racing management and innovational frame of competitive online.

There is a great discrepancy between console and PC market, just by reach. Although I really respect modding-community, it is a very small one when you take actual numbers in concern. And modding - in the way seen on PC - will not become part of any console titles for long time - if ever - purely because of the economics of DLC and security reasons.

Due to its open-nature and upgradable specs, PC will always lead consoles in terms of expanding the possibilities of the framework - but racing on PC will never be popular and commercial as on consoles, from dozens of reasons which you're probably aware of.

My elaboration above was made strictly console-wise, because the future of gaming lays in console-business, although PC will remain strong but will never see the popularity as in pre-1997 era.

I am very sure that all great franchises will embrace "platform" model and go somewhat PC-wise even in terms of hard-core (GT5 is a great example of that), but it remains to be seen how many publishers and producers will actually risk such design in order to preserve their investment.

 

[azq27]

Q1, nice. I am Guessing Burnout 5 will also be released in Q4 2011.......

no we get a bad ripp-off with the name Ridge Racer. check it out.

 

[UkHardcore23]

Given that most REALLY serious 'sim' drivers don't even acknowledge Forza or GT5 as true 'sims', I think we are getting crossed up trying to shoehorn everything into a two game model... The 'sim' and 'not sim'.

I think, though, that we have much more of a three game model. Sim, Arcade, and Semi-Sim.

And Forza and GT5 occupy the middle class. As will Shift 2. Some Sim-like elements (handling), some arcade.

I have said forever that, yes, I realize that probably the vast majority of the market has no CLUE how a race car handles, or even the rules and dynamics of the sport itself. So I always try to emphasize that things like pitstops (or if you can't model all that fluff, at least pull off the track and stop for ten seconds to get fuel and new tires magically), full damage that only a pitstop fixes, track obstacles being removed, tire wear and ramming penalties be there as ONLY an option for lobby creators, or players in single player mode.

Shift will get returned to the stores even faster than GT5 if all of this stuff is mandatory. But a racing franchise lives or dies on the backs of the long-term enthusiast. Kids buying Shift 2 will mostly be gone as soon as they finish the single player mode (or get along it as far as their casual skills allow) and will be off to the NEXT racing game, arcade or otherwise. It's an ADD generation out there, playing games.

But GT5 got its huge start based on the buzz from those STILL playing GT4 and GT5p, after five years or more. You think that Blur 2 is going to get the same reception? What SMS do to allow Shift 2 players that DO want to race clean, and give the title legs will count JUST as much as giving the casual player enough fun he doesn't return it in a week, and making it easy enough he plays it until the next game comes out. If SMS can make Shift 2 the kind of game that GT5 players REALLY want to play (they don't want to play GT5... they just do because it's the only PS3 alternative that even makes a serious nod to sim-like handling) they'll play it forever and make Shift 3 a guaranteed success, rather than Shift 2 being the last chance to get it right, which is closer to the truth..

I truly believe that if Shift 2 DOES get the physics as good as GT5, it doesn't NEED iRacing quality physics. That's not the competition. I tell you the truth. If Shift 1 had physics as good as GT5 (and no better) I would STILL happily be playing it online to this day, and wouldn't have bothered with GT5 at all. About ten weeks with GT5 has soured me to the game. Yes, love the handling... HATE the game! Obviously, SMS know how to make a fun game. All they ever needed to do was graft on decent physics, and PD are a distant memory.

I've said before, physics and FUN have nothing to do with each other. GT5 has great physics, but it doesn't make it a fun game. Shift was a fun game WITHOUT great physics. Put the two together, and you have a game that will kickstart a dynasty as long lived as GT.

Great post!

Personally im fed up of kids trying to claim GT games are the only sim's on the market and the rest are "arcade"

 

[UkHardcore23]

Shift 2 Unleashes the Realism

The racing genre fights a constant battle between realism and arcade-style thrills. There generally aren't any titles that straddle the line well enough to draw in communities from both sides. The original Need for Speed: Shift was a fantastic racer which handled realism well but managed to still please the arcade community with its ease of use, high-end cars and assists. Forza takes the experience to a more realistic level where it pleases a wide array of racing fans while drawing in less numbers from the arcade community. After spending a few hours with Need for Speed: Shift 2 Unleashed, I must say that the racer is poised to contain the best of both worlds and please a lot of automobile fans falling under both headings.


First off to scare the arcade community a little, let me just say that Shift 2 provides the opportunity to use &#8220;elite level&#8221; handling and damage modeling. You can adjust your tire pressures, differentials and keep an eye on your brake temperatures to know just how effectively you can tackle that upcoming turn at your current speed. You can tinker with eight categories of advanced tuning dealing with everything from ride heights to your downforce and drivetrain. Your sway bars can be pulled one way or the other and in general you can custom tune your vehicles to settings that can be loaded up depending on the style of track you're coming up on. You can create an oval build, a street build, a drift build and any other setting you may feel the need to use at some point in your career. And to test these variables Shift 2 gives you a live-testing workflow. As soon as you make an adjustment you can take your car to a test track. Using a real-time HUD you'll be able to check your tire contact, temperatures, height, RPMs and much, much more. Thus you'll have immediate feedback on your tuning while driving. This HUD is available during any race, not just during testing.


In addition, the realistic damage model provides that if you crash too hard, you'll wreck your car for good and be out of the race. You can lose pieces of your car, your windshield, your tires and generally lose out due to poor driving. But the interesting element to the damage is the new rendering engine. If an AI player wrecks, their car will remain on the track the next lap. If a tire flies off, it too will be an obstacle in the future. The track itself will accrue growing skid marks on the corners and cars will retain scrapes from walls and other vehicles. Slightly Mad Studios was aiming to retain the &#8220;battle hardened look&#8221; of cars deep into their events. Producer Jesse Abney states that he loves &#8220;seeing the incidents [on the track that] you have nothing to do with.&#8221; You'll be dodging debris on particularly aggressive events and trying to remain competitive.


Now if hyper-realism scares you, you still don't need to fear Shift 2. You aren't forced to custom tune your vehicles or worry about tire pressures as you're trying to find your line while cornering. Just like the original Shift and other racers in its class, the game provides track lines that show you when to slow down and when to turn. While you won't be boosting through every race and throwing turtle shells, Shift 2 is still an approachable title. But at the same time players need to understand that this kind of racer requires braking at the right time and knowing when to accelerate. These tenets come with practice and generally learning the courses available in the game.


In Shift 2 events take place at three different times of the day: night, dusk and daytime. The light is drastically different during each period and nighttime is a new factor altogether. Your headlights will sweep across a track and the difficulty goes up as it's more difficult to see what turns you're approaching. Dusk races are lit in the golden glow of the sun going down and showcase the beauty found in each track. Overall the racer looks fantastic. The developers refined the graphics engine to really change up the camera and visual effects in the game. The new &#8220;helmet cam&#8221; really looks fantastic. If you've set the camera to be inside the car, you'll notice every bump and turn in the road as there is a constant unsteadiness in the visuals. This is aimed to reflect what it's like to be inside the car. To further add to the helmet aspect, as you approach a turn and begin moving the wheel, the camera will make subtle adjustments to the left and right to reflect where the driver would actually be looking during a race. It's an extremely helpful aspect as you're not stuck looking straight.


Shift 2 provides over 100 cars, over 100 events and 50 different tracks split into multiple layouts that reflect some real-world locations and some fictional arenas. The career mode presents 15 tiers of challenges that don't necessarily need to be tackled in a linear manner. The levels are more based on &#8220;automotive potential&#8221; which will help drivers learn the skills necessary to succeed at higher levels. The events cover several disciplines in racing like retro, muscle, drift, endurance, modern FIA GT3 and FIA GT1 super cars. Every car in the game can be custom-tuned to one's personal specifications.


Some events pit old versus new cars against each other, like the McLaren F1 against its modern MP4-12C counterpart. Others teach you to drift with a variety of practice courses (which you'll need). AI has been refined to give more subtle changes in difficulty. Rather than &#8220;rubber-banding&#8221; up or down to meet your level, the game looks at your career performance and adjust thirty percent up or down to slowly get closer to your level and create a more competitive experience.



Autolog returns in Shift 2 to help compare you to friends and present challenges to beat. With timed races this becomes important as milliseconds can often be the difference in a real race between drivers.

Need for Speed: Shift 2 Unleashed looks to be an awesome racing title that will both please fans of realism and give more casual racers a chance to take the sport more seriously. From the physics to the graphics and numebr of cars available everything is looking spot-on at this point and Slightly Mad might just be giving Forza something to be nervous about. As an added bonus, the developers put one of the Hot Pursuit police cars into Shift 2 for owners of Hot Pursuit. The developers, more than anything, want you to come away with the &#8220;authentic race day experience.&#8221;

http://previews.teamxbox.com/xbox-360/2577/Need-for-Speed-Shift-2-Unleashed/p1/

 

[Imari]

Well, if it ends up being somewhere between Shift 1 and FM3, I'd be happy.

 

[witham]

^^^ lose of car parts and debry staying where it is sounds fantastic. Can't wait to hear the roar of the gt1 cars and knowing shift they certainly will roar.

 

[Destinkeys]

I'm still a little worried about leaving track debris in place...

I would be interested in knowing which racing series Jesse Abney has been to where a detached tire or body panel was allowed to remain on the track. Certainly NOT FIA GT1, I can guarantee you that! Anything more substantial than tire 'marbles' or a tear-off strip, and the yellow comes out.

This being a game, poof! It can just plain disappear without halting the racing (wish it was like that IRL!), but to leave it on and worse just for the mayhem aspect is flaunting it in the face of "that will both please fans of realism and give more casual racers a chance to take the sport more seriously."

Leaving things on the track to crash into is SO arcade, and not worthy of any title that wants to be taken even HALF seriously...

 

[tribolik]

I'm still a little worried about leaving track debris in place...

I would be interested in knowing which racing series Jesse Abney has been to where a detached tire or body panel was allowed to remain on the track. Certainly NOT FIA GT1, I can guarantee you that! Anything more substantial than tire 'marbles' or a tear-off strip, and the yellow comes out.

This being a game, poof! It can just plain disappear without halting the racing (wish it was like that IRL!), but to leave it on and worse just for the mayhem aspect is flaunting it in the face of "that will both please fans of realism and give more casual racers a chance to take the sport more seriously."

Leaving things on the track to crash into is SO arcade, and not worthy of any title that wants to be taken even HALF seriously...

Track debri doesnt just vanish into the air - having debri means that the cars will actually loose parts when damaged but Im almost sure the next lap there will be no debri on the track... But I wont put my hand in the fire...

 

[HKS racer]

Interesting points of view from booth Destinkeys and amar212, but in my opinion too many people, even the game producers are too scared about the "true sims". If a game like GTR2 with flag rules, pitstops, stop n go, drive through, advanced setup options would by available for console, ( something a bit more sim than Gran Turismo, but with a equal level graphic) I wonder if people wouldn't be at least tempted by it. A great product that can fascinate people, "True Real Racing On Your Console" it's there, you just need to go out and buy it. Even the little kid, who hear talking about this "new big sim" would be interested, he know this time he is not going to play an arcade, this time is time to try something more.. and when this little kid after about 20 minutes of gameplay realize that he need to brake and downshift before enter a turn and be fluid with the throotle while exiting.. 💡 he realize that he wasted his time playing arcade racing and these sims are a great fun and not so difficoult as they say. GT series tried to do teach people this thing, but PD always failed to add all the other "sim features" such as complete flag rules just because they are... scared... they think that a yellow flag is "too simulative" "people wouldn't buy our game anymore" "we are on console we can't do that" but they are wrong, of course they are wrong.. I hope somebody out there will understand that and deliver a good sim for console without all these fears.

 

[Destinkeys]

Track debri doesnt just vanish into the air - having debri means that the cars will actually loose parts when damaged but Im almost sure the next lap there will be no debri on the track... But I wont put my hand in the fire...

Did you play Shift 1? Concrete berms and big blue chicane boxes, that would stop your car DEAD and ruin it (if you had damage on) stayed on the track the whole race!

I don't think we DO need yellows. This is one area where game rules are BETTER than real rules (one of the few!). Debris should just evaporate after the pack has gone by. You are in your car racing, anyway, so what does it MATTER if it evaporates or an animated marshal comes out and drags it off?! You won't see it happen, either way...

Too many idiot spoilers would deliberately crash into the berms and blue boxes just to strew them on the track to mess up the leaders on the next lap (if you didn't see it happen, you had no idea they were there until you came flat out round the blind corner and wham!).

Did anyone at SMS actually play online with the general public? I can't believe that this would stay in if they had... How many races do you have to have ruined by a ten year old with a grudge before you realize that this is no longer a good idea?

 

[tribolik]

Did you play Shift 1? Concrete berms and big blue chicane boxes, that would stop your car DEAD and ruin it (if you had damage on) stayed on the track the whole race!

I don't think we DO need yellows. This is one area where game rules are BETTER than real rules (one of the few!). Debris should just evaporate after the pack has gone by. You are in your car racing, anyway, so what does it MATTER if it evaporates or an animated marshal comes out and drags it off?! You won't see it happen, either way...

Too many idiot spoilers would deliberately crash into the berms and blue boxes just to strew them on the track to mess up the leaders on the next lap (if you didn't see it happen, you had no idea they were there until you came flat out round the blind corner and wham!).

I remember the blue boxes and that happens in GT5 aswell - and yes it is very annoying.
What I was trying to say was if youre the last on the pack and the front cars have a crash you will have to look out for debri but after you pass its obvious that the 1111s turn to 0000s or the bits turn to bytes and the debri evaporates - I hope

 

[Imari]

I'm still a little worried about leaving track debris in place...

I would be interested in knowing which racing series Jesse Abney has been to where a detached tire or body panel was allowed to remain on the track. Certainly NOT FIA GT1, I can guarantee you that! Anything more substantial than tire 'marbles' or a tear-off strip, and the yellow comes out.

This being a game, poof! It can just plain disappear without halting the racing (wish it was like that IRL!), but to leave it on and worse just for the mayhem aspect is flaunting it in the face of "that will both please fans of realism and give more casual racers a chance to take the sport more seriously."

Leaving things on the track to crash into is SO arcade, and not worthy of any title that wants to be taken even HALF seriously...

Running into debris from two cars that had a crash up the road from you 20 seconds ago? Awesome.

Running into debris from your own crash that happened two laps ago? Un-awesome.

If the debris comes into your visual range within a certain time limit, you have to deal with it. Otherwise I agree, make it go poof.

 

[boxox]

Worth mentioning that this is already in Shift 1 (persistent debris) and it can already damage the car (separable components such as the hood/mirrors/boot have their own physx collision properties and can puncture tyres/damage the diffuser/etc) if you run over them


Just another thing that was built and then focus tested out I think...

 

[jonboy1066]

I must say that when I first saw the announcement about Shift2 I was very sceptical. But since I've been reading and following what the SMS guys have been saying about it and since the major dissappointment that I have found with GT5 and FM3 I think that as long as SMS hold true to their hype they will have found a whole new fanbase.

Perhaps it's my age and the fact that I've now Played to death 10 versions of GranTurismo as well as 2 Versions of Forza. But I think I'm now done with this type of 'Stamp Collecting' Car game and want to get back to my true gaming passion..........

Racing!

FM3 almost nailed it with the Offline mode but failed miserably with the online hoppers

GT5 almost nailed it with the online mode but has failed miserably with offline grinding

In all I prefer the true to real racing styles of F1 2010 and RACE Pro over the two 'bigger' games.

So if SMS has been let off the arcade physics leash that EA tied them too with Shift1 and really have made a game that they claim will keep sim racing fans and motorsport fans like me happy then I can see GT5 spending a lot less time in my PS3 than I previously thought it would.

Hopefully there'll be a demo before I do commit to buying it.

But as PD have shown that their old dog hasn't really learned any new tricks I can see Shift2 being the racing game I've been waiting for, leaving the FM and GT Series' miles behind in its wake. Shift or no shift I think I've pretty much tired of the whole FM and GT style of game and was planning to step up into the world of iRacing rather than suffer the disappointment of GT6 and FM4, but the early promise of Shift2 means that I may be able to hold off on that for a couple more years yet with some of the inside info I have on F1 2011 and what I'm learning about Shift2.

 

[p-coletray]

There's a much deeper debate going here, so I'll be breif since they locked up the other thread on the GT5 forum:

I could care less about whom has perfect simulation, that debate is way too subjective (though obviously up till now it's GT at the top). GT5 allows 300mph head on collisions with virtually no damage, yet Nordschleife is a blast to drive with any car, so we overlook it.

Key questions: Is it fun and does it create a real experience? Do they take you through the game with an approach that the player has a brain and wants solid, fair, competition. Did they spend more time on glamorous scenery that extends seemingly endless miles past the useable track or is there more accuracy on the useable track?

Also, they have some tracks I've been looking forward to: bathurst, monza (the oval) and whatever else, I need some new stomping grounds. Also, less cars which can only be better. If I see another unmodifiable, useless midget, diahutsu, hyundai, S2000, rx-7, skyline, or fit I'm gonna eat my shoe (just so I don't throw it at the tv)

Plus night time racing looks sweet.

IMO EA is a big time developer, they have probably been watching, waiting, preparing to flex their racing muscles, hence 'Unleashed' being the title. This is like bottom of the 9th against the Yankees for the world series, down by 3, 3 & 2 count with bases loaded due to bad pitching and errors. Time to take advantage.

Either way, I'll never switch to x-box (forza) unless sony starts charging network fees.

http://www.needforspeed.com/shift2unleashed/tracks


Thanks for this thread, I'm stoked.