Nissan R35 GT-R's handling is nerfed... too much
- Thread starter gator of kana
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- carracerptp
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- WrecklessAbandon
@carracerptp - You can't just go buy 1980's tires, so why would you be racing with them on instead of modern ones?
So, while I agree that in 1982, a specific car may have had less grip due to tires not being of today's quality, anyone racing the car today, would be using modern tires, and have the grip that modern tires deliver.
So, while I agree that in 1982, a specific car may have had less grip due to tires not being of today's quality, anyone racing the car today, would be using modern tires, and have the grip that modern tires deliver.
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
Finding a racing tire to replace the Pirelli P4000 215/70 R15 would be easy ?
- 357
- Delaware
- fizzer82
Real-world stats from wikipedia (grain of salt taken)
288 GTO hp/ton: 313
'07 GTR hp/ton: 255.2
'13 GTR hp/ton: 287
Put them on equal tires and the GTO should smoke the GTRs, why is this even a discussion? The PP ratings might be a bit off, but AWD cars do seem to get a PP handicap and MR/RR cars a bit of a PP boost. For the majority of online racers, that's probably fair to a point since so many seem to struggle with rear drivers.
288 GTO hp/ton: 313
'07 GTR hp/ton: 255.2
'13 GTR hp/ton: 287
Put them on equal tires and the GTO should smoke the GTRs, why is this even a discussion? The PP ratings might be a bit off, but AWD cars do seem to get a PP handicap and MR/RR cars a bit of a PP boost. For the majority of online racers, that's probably fair to a point since so many seem to struggle with rear drivers.
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
Pit the GTR against GTO at Tsukuba or any low/mid speed twisty circuit, then GTR would beat the GTO 
- 191
- plinsavi or GTP_plinsavi
Nothing unrealistic about it. You know a Sambabus going 55 mph can overtake a F1 car going 45 mph, right?
- 600
- DeolTheBeast
Driven a GTR myself - incredible car, just so clinical and effortless in how it goes about its work. Just grips like nothing else I've ever driven, then gives you that confidence to just slingshot out of a bend.
Judging by the Nurb times alone - its evident to anyone what a balanced car it is. More than quick enough on the straights (definitely not the fastest though) - but it couples it to hugely high cornering speeds.
People thinking that the 288 GTO realistically stands a chance on a track next to a GTR (on the same compound of modern tyres) - are MAD. Power/Weight ratio means very little in comparison when cars have similar power outputs but VERY different ways of putting that power down.
Gods gift to driving in a 288 on any circuit wouldn't get near an average driver in any GTR. GTR's chassis, power delivery, grip - far far more advanced. Not to mention it inspires the drivers confidence to push on. Same goes (or should go) on Gran Turismo - the GTR should be a simple car to lap quickly with. Stuff like the 288 and F40 are just too twitchy and 'inefficient' in the power delivery (note: slow spooling turbos) as well as not being able to grip as well.
tl;dr -1. GTR should be an easy, yet incredibly quick and stable way to lap a track (it is IRL)
2. Technology has advanced too far for cars like the 288 GTO to realistically be able to match something like a GTR
Judging by the Nurb times alone - its evident to anyone what a balanced car it is. More than quick enough on the straights (definitely not the fastest though) - but it couples it to hugely high cornering speeds.
People thinking that the 288 GTO realistically stands a chance on a track next to a GTR (on the same compound of modern tyres) - are MAD. Power/Weight ratio means very little in comparison when cars have similar power outputs but VERY different ways of putting that power down.
Gods gift to driving in a 288 on any circuit wouldn't get near an average driver in any GTR. GTR's chassis, power delivery, grip - far far more advanced. Not to mention it inspires the drivers confidence to push on. Same goes (or should go) on Gran Turismo - the GTR should be a simple car to lap quickly with. Stuff like the 288 and F40 are just too twitchy and 'inefficient' in the power delivery (note: slow spooling turbos) as well as not being able to grip as well.
tl;dr -1. GTR should be an easy, yet incredibly quick and stable way to lap a track (it is IRL)
2. Technology has advanced too far for cars like the 288 GTO to realistically be able to match something like a GTR
- 357
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- fizzer82
You're vastly underestimating the GTO and what it is. Its not just a sports car from the 80s. Its a de-tuned Group B endurance race car. Its not like we're talking production cars from the 60s, the 80s weren't that long ago and this ferrari is a very special machine. The GTR is a great car, but no amount of technology can make up for simple physics.
It is astounding that the GTR performs as well as it does, but its still a nearly two-ton behemoth. Lets put some perspective on this shall we? It weighs the same as a 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee.
The 288 GTO was the Ferrari Enzo of the day. Do you think an $80k equivalent production car in 20 years is going to be beating Enzos? Read, learn, love: http://jalopnik.com/250408/jalopnik-fantasy-garage-ferrari-288-gto
I also think you underestimate a good driver. An average driver's "twitchy" is a good driver's "superb turn-in response" and "perfectly controlled rotation".
- 9,053
- Murica
- BasedAckbar
Yes, in over that period of 20 years technology happened to progress quite greatly in fact. The gearbox alone of the GTR will cringe at the GTO's old stick and clutch. Its launch control will laugh as it can outrun just about anything. Its turbos would suck the red paint off the Ferrari. I know Enzo made some epic cars, but the Japanese calculator has him beat this time around. I love the GTO, really do, but lets not pretend an old super car from the 80s can really challenge a modern sports car with a 0-60 time in the high 2 seconds. With the new Nismo GTR, even the Ferrari Enzo would need a change of pants.
Edit: it's almost 30 years actually.
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- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
Try to have the Ferrari beat the NISMO GTR record lap at the green hell 
- 357
- Delaware
- fizzer82
And yet, physics have not changed a bit
Your failure to grasp simple vehicle dynamics concepts is quite entertaining. The stellar 0-60 time of the GTR (only possible with AWD and launch control) is nearly meaningless in the scope of this discussion which is lap times at apricot hill. As is the gearbox which is not a factor in a non-tuning limited online room.
The simple fact is that a 2500lb 400hp MR car should beat a 3800lb 485hp AWD car at a track like apricot hill and lots of tracks without an excess of straightaway length. All the electronics and differentials in the world can't change the equation of F=ma. The lightning quick shifts of a modern transmission might get you a whopping percentage point or two on the F, but that's about it. Downforce isn't in play, tires are equal, and 80s race car suspension technology is not all that different from today's production car suspension designs.
I do enjoy a good bench racing debate, but saying an '07 GTR should outperform an '84 288 GTO on Apricot hill is indefensible fantasy. It's kind of like saying that a 505hp C6 Corvette Z06 on racing slicks should be faster than a 40hp shifter kart on an autocross track. There's no contest in that match up and the Z06 isn't even at the power to weight ratio deficit that the GT-R is in this case.
- 9,053
- Murica
- BasedAckbar
I'll respect your opinion more if you stop acting superior.
Bottom line is, Nissan made made better use of those physics 30 years later. And I'm talking about the 2012-2013 model year GTR which has a bit more over 500 HP. It makes the 2007 model year look like a slouch.
And a GTR is faster around apricot hill btw.
Bottom line is, Nissan made made better use of those physics 30 years later. And I'm talking about the 2012-2013 model year GTR which has a bit more over 500 HP. It makes the 2007 model year look like a slouch.
And a GTR is faster around apricot hill btw.
- 2,238
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- BWX232
In GT5 the stock r33 was an under-steerring pig, and in GT6 it's a great car to drive, one of the best feeling AWD cars so far. Unless they changed something major in GT5 in the last 6 months, it should be easy enough to test them (GT5 vs GT6) back to back, right? Same for the r35.
Talking no aids, stock setup, cs, sh tires, etc..
Talking no aids, stock setup, cs, sh tires, etc..
- 600
- DeolTheBeast
Don't take this as a hit on the 288 - I love that car, certainly don't need a history lesson on it. No issues in that department believe me...
Basic physics? On paper is one thing, something I'm sure you can understand. Not going to go into this spec for spec, but a GTR weighs around 1800kg wet - however it simply doesn't matter.
Straight up drag, or normal lapping, a 288 won't see which way a GTR went - it's simply quicker. That doesn't take away the significance of the Ferrari, I still see it as a more interesting car than the Nissan, but the road tests all point to a GTR causing trouble to many, many cars the cheap side of a Bugatti or similar (on track or from a stand start drag).
It shouldn't be as quick as it is, but alas Nissan got the gremlins in on the act when they made the GTR.
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- WrecklessAbandon
Tell me more about the slow spooling turbo's on the F40, and how they managed a 2.8 second 0-60 time 20 years ago, without 4WD or TCS.
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
Godzilla FTW Put both GTO and GTR on comfort soft ( this tire is similar to real life GTR's OEM tire and the Ferrari gets advantage here as it should have comfort medium instead ), drive both at Tsukuba, Big Willow, Brands Hatch and Bathurst, I am certain the GTR will beat the lap time in at least 3 of these tracks. Disable all aids for both cars - no brake assist, no TC, no asm, nothing.
The F40 0-60 2.8 time ( if this was true probably was done on non road legal tires with wide contact patch). I read somewhere that the official time 0-60 was 3.7 sec, some list it as 4 sec + 11.7 quarter mile - latest model GTR can go 10sec quarter mile - stock and slow spooling turbo do not matter much when doing hard launch drag as the engine can be revved. I still think a heavy car with inferior power to weight ratio to achieve such quick 0-60 time is still a great achievement that only a few cars can attain. GTR is about beating more powerful expensive cars with affordable price and clever design - hence the nickname Godzilla.
288GTO quarter mile is 12.7 sec IRL.
F40 Tsukuba time record is 1:03.95
Nissan GTR '07 Tsukuba time is 1:02.055 using Dunlop OEM SP Sport 600 DSST, VDC R -off, Transmission- R mode, Damper - R mode, driver : Keiichi Tsuchiya, he noted that the Dunlop is oversteery, and the Bridgestone Potenza RE070R tire originally fitted on the GTR from the dealer has more stability. I am sure the latest model with power and handling improvement would see around 1 minute lap time or maybe sub 1 minute
Nissan GTR Nismo MY2015, 592HP/600PS, 1720kg, 7:08.68 Nordschleife lap, beaten only by 918 Spider and Radical SR8.
0-100km/h: 2.62
0-200km/h: 10.0s
V-MAX: 315km/h
Auto Bild Sportscars 01/14
Specs from Japan:
VR38DETT
600ps(441kW)/@rpm is not known yet
66.5kgm(652Nm)/@rpm is not known yet
3799cc
95.5mm x 88.4mm
74L (Fuel Capacity)
Front: 255/40ZRF20(97Y)
Rear: 285/35ZRF20(100Y)
The Time Attack Edition NISMO GTR '15 has the same power with lighter weight at 1670kg
2012 Nissan GTR currently holds the fastest lap time record at Streets of Willow : 1:19.55, beating the likes of 458 Italia, Aston Martin Vantage S, ZR1 etc.
Put both GTO and GTR on comfort soft ( this tire is similar to real life GTR's OEM tire and the Ferrari gets advantage here as it should have comfort medium instead ), drive both at Tsukuba, Big Willow, Brands Hatch and Bathurst, I am certain the GTR will beat the lap time in at least 3 of these tracks. Disable all aids for both cars - no brake assist, no TC, no asm, nothing.The F40 0-60 2.8 time ( if this was true probably was done on non road legal tires with wide contact patch). I read somewhere that the official time 0-60 was 3.7 sec, some list it as 4 sec + 11.7 quarter mile - latest model GTR can go 10sec quarter mile - stock
and slow spooling turbo do not matter much when doing hard launch drag as the engine can be revved. I still think a heavy car with inferior power to weight ratio to achieve such quick 0-60 time is still a great achievement that only a few cars can attain. GTR is about beating more powerful expensive cars with affordable price and clever design - hence the nickname Godzilla.288GTO quarter mile is 12.7 sec IRL.
F40 Tsukuba time record is 1:03.95
Nissan GTR '07 Tsukuba time is 1:02.055 using Dunlop OEM SP Sport 600 DSST, VDC R -off, Transmission- R mode, Damper - R mode, driver : Keiichi Tsuchiya, he noted that the Dunlop is oversteery, and the Bridgestone Potenza RE070R tire originally fitted on the GTR from the dealer has more stability. I am sure the latest model with power and handling improvement would see around 1 minute lap time or maybe sub 1 minute
Nissan GTR Nismo MY2015, 592HP/600PS, 1720kg, 7:08.68 Nordschleife lap, beaten only by 918 Spider and Radical SR8.
0-100km/h: 2.62
0-200km/h: 10.0s
V-MAX: 315km/h
Auto Bild Sportscars 01/14
Specs from Japan:
VR38DETT
600ps(441kW)/@rpm is not known yet
66.5kgm(652Nm)/@rpm is not known yet
3799cc
95.5mm x 88.4mm
74L (Fuel Capacity)
Front: 255/40ZRF20(97Y)
Rear: 285/35ZRF20(100Y)
The Time Attack Edition NISMO GTR '15 has the same power with lighter weight at 1670kg
2012 Nissan GTR currently holds the fastest lap time record at Streets of Willow : 1:19.55, beating the likes of 458 Italia, Aston Martin Vantage S, ZR1 etc.
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- 600
- DeolTheBeast
Dude it consistently did high 3 second 0-60 times when all magazines popped a good driver in the seat. Turbo lag isn't even a factor from a launch - you keep the revs to a point where it won't bog down in the "lag zone" of the rev range.
However, it will be a problem when trying to lay down laptimes - it doesn't have a powerband as usable as something like the GTR (i.e torque evenly spread across the rev range). I'll say it again, 288, F40 - w/e , it doesn't matter on paper about how much they weigh or how much power they have (within reason).
Anyway, this is about the R35's handling - which should be very stable and predictable, no matter the track.
- 3,070
- Norway
IRL the GT-R would walk all over the GTO.
In GT6 almost all the GT-R's advantages are reduced to almost nothing.
-Braking, this is the aspect that would differ the most from GT6.
-Ultimate lateral grip, both cars are equipped with semi slicks on stock suspension, mkay...
-Traction, see above.
-On the limit handling, good though as GT6 is it's still not "dangerous" to push an 80's road racer to its limit.
-Shift times, probably 1-2 seconds right there.
But still though, it's only a video game.
In GT6 almost all the GT-R's advantages are reduced to almost nothing.
-Braking, this is the aspect that would differ the most from GT6.
-Ultimate lateral grip, both cars are equipped with semi slicks on stock suspension, mkay...
-Traction, see above.
-On the limit handling, good though as GT6 is it's still not "dangerous" to push an 80's road racer to its limit.
-Shift times, probably 1-2 seconds right there.
But still though, it's only a video game.
- 8,642
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- GTP_Stotty
This 👍
Much as the GTR does nothing for me, there's no doubt it's an incredibly effective weapon on track, and sets lap times that much more exotic and expensive cars cannot match.
A 288GTO wouldn't see which way a GTR went.
