Non-linear throttle

[Outspacer]

No need to match gears, just note the rpm and speed at the same time. It needs to be more fine grained than just 50, 75 and 100% ideally. That's where pedal voltages come in.

I was thinking that matching RPM would remove a variable (the torque vs rpm curve) from affecting the tests. More tests would only be needed if the intial ones weren't conclusive... I just think those first 3 tests would be an interesting start.

Yes, 75% on the pedal should be measured by voltage to be accurate, but probably start and end deadzones should be factored in somehow, so 75% of the used range of voltage... something like that?

The test with 75% on the graphic doesn't need to account for deadzones, and is only there to see if matches closely with a 75% torque calculation. We know the mapping between pedal and graphic, now we're probing the mapping between graphic and power output.

Back in GT5 Prologue, anyone using sequential gears got left in the dust in standing starts and generally on the straights by anyone using the H-pattern, this because of GT's now-famed rev-matched gear changes, up as well as down. That's when the "checks" were introduced: no flat shifting, no second gear allowed in less than x time since deselecting first. Here we are today with the same problems that were once deliberately added for "parity".

I'm not denying that it changed, just saying that PD is never really open about the reasons why they do things. Maybe they just think they are making it more realistic.

 

[Griffith500]

...

I'm not denying that it changed, just saying that PD is never really open about the reasons why they do things. Maybe they just think they are making it more realistic.

There's nothing "realistic" about it and they very well know it. It was done for parity between two very different control schemes as applied to the actual physics involved (scripted vs. player controlled gear changes). And only because people complained. Proper handling would require a rework of the drivetrain simulation, which we are yet to see (and is the likely reason the problem persists).

I would not be surprised if this throttle curve is another example of pandering to so-called "whiners" that ended up penalising everyone, probably following the beta (which didn't have this throttle issue). It may also prove to be partly exacerbated by some kind of simulation blind spot.

 

[Groundfish]

Appreciate your in depth post @Groundfish. I read every word...honest I did but however one wants to descibe PD's implementation of throttle response, linear, a bit linear, not at all linear, etc, it is not "normal", fun or satisfying for a racing game to use whatever it is regardless of what PD might think are good reasons for doing so. No other driving game I have ever played has given me any cause to give the slightest attention whatsoever to throttle response in the way that GTS does. It's just wrong. Simples.

I think in relation to just gaming if you played one game first another may feel ‘wrong’ or incorrect. I have and sometimes play AC but haven’t tried project cars.
I think among games, some will do some things well or to ones liking, and others do other things well. If I didn’t find it fun I sure wouldn’t play GT Sport.
I do stand by my argument though. If I had a choice about pedal travel to throttle percent. I would choose more travel to produce the first 50 percent for the reasons I mentioned.
In life in general in designing equipment or games one must always make compromises.

 

[fastone371]

This throttle issue could easily be resolved by the wheel makers, the gas pedal does not need to move the potentiometer in linear motion, they could make the pedal to potentiometer motion non linear to mask PD's problem and make the gas pedal feel like it is linear.

 

[Pfei]

This throttle issue could easily be resolved by the wheel makers, the gas pedal does not need to move the potentiometer in linear motion, they could make the pedal to potentiometer motion non linear to mask PD's problem and make the gas pedal feel like it is linear.

That's not necessary. "Normal" games allow pedal calibration and adjustment of throttle linearity and sensitivity. PD for some reason doesn't want us to have access to that functionality.

 

[Traks1]

This throttle issue could easily be resolved by the wheel makers, the gas pedal does not need to move the potentiometer in linear motion, they could make the pedal to potentiometer motion non linear to mask PD's problem and make the gas pedal feel like it is linear.

or PD could just like, you know, fix it with a bit of code, so it's like every other driving game ever.

Seriously though, I don't derive any pleasure from "driving" in this game any more. As time has gone by I have grown more and more frustrated with how this one particular game works with a wheel and pedals. The awful throttle response is just one of several GT "characteristics" that make this "the real blancmange simulator" for me.

 

[John G]

This throttle issue could easily be resolved by the wheel makers, the gas pedal does not need to move the potentiometer in linear motion, they could make the pedal to potentiometer motion non linear to mask PD's problem and make the gas pedal feel like it is linear.

Then it would be wrong for every other game. This is a GTS problem not a hardware problem

 

[fastone371]

That's not necessary. "Normal" games allow pedal calibration and adjustment of throttle linearity and sensitivity. PD for some reason doesn't want us to have access to that functionality.

or PD could just like, you know, fix it with a bit of code, so it's like every other driving game ever.

Seriously though, I don't derive any pleasure from "driving" in this game any more. As time has gone by I have grown more and more frustrated with how this one particular game works with a wheel and pedals. The awful throttle response is just one of several GT "characteristics" that make this "the real blancmange simulator" for me.

Then it would be wrong for every other game. This is a GTS problem not a hardware problem

I could not agree more with you guys. One would think PD would have someone trolling forums or have a way that gamers could express their concerns within the game, especially considering its popularity and the life long fan base with some users. Somebody said it best the other day when they called "the real pushing similator', I assume that was relative to the fact that most cars push like a Mack truck. These are many areas in which GTS could be improved, either PD didnt listen to their beta group or they selected poor choice of group for a racing similation game.

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

So many things have been fixed, broken, fixed again and yet...

Now you're more likely to understeer off a corner because you can't control the throttle properly.

 

[Suntek]

So many things have been fixed, broken, fixed again and yet...

Now you're more likely to understeer off a corner because you can't control the throttle properly.

I haven't played for a while, have they changed something again?

 

[Traks1]

Nothing that matters. Throttle still emulating the characteristics of a light switch so...

 

[Rexracer702]

Wow. This issue is the biggest problem I have with this game. I read the first 8 pages and the last 3...hopefully I didn't miss anything important. The graphic/vid showes the problem well. This is how I would explain it

This is a RACING game. We are not driving in traffic, or cruising. We are going around a track as fast as possible. Due to this fact, we only use (approximately) the top 25% of the rev range because nobody races at 2000 rpm. On my G29 pedals, that means ALL of my on-throttle driving is done in the last 25% of the pedal travel, and most of the fine throttle control I need, from what I need for steady speed in a corner to what will spin the tires in that same corner, happens in about 1/8" to 1/4" of travel. I feel like 1/8" is closer to the truth. I always run all the cars with no TC. I'm running GR2 at Fuji and when going through the last 3 corners I want to carry some speed, but when coming off the brakes and getting back on the gas I have to hit such a small window in the gas pedal position that it's easy to over shoot, by 1/16", and loop the car. More often I under shoot, and try to feed in throttle 1mm at a time to get where I want.

I don't want a linear throttle. I like the curve. It just needs to be flipped! You never use the first half of pedal travel the way it is now. Notice that the pic posted earlier of the Clio's throttle maps on Sport was basically that way. If
I had the electronics know-how I would rig a circuit with a pot so I could change the exponential on the throttle to what I like...maybe I can find someone, or maybe Logitec might make a plug in to do just that.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

I've found the GR2 at Fuji TT a great place to practice and improve the 50-100% throttle control. It's how I've found about a second in the past couple of days.

 

[breeminator]

So, it took me about 36 hours of using a wheel and pedals to notice this problem. I was trying to back off to 90% throttle for a specific bend, and noticed the throttle was actually dropping to 50%. Googled how to change the linearity, and found out you can't :-(

 

[fastone371]

So, it took me about 36 hours of using a wheel and pedals to notice this problem. I was trying to back off to 90% throttle for a specific bend, and noticed the throttle was actually dropping to 50%. Googled how to change the linearity, and found out you can't :-(

Nice thing PD did for us there, ain't it??

 

[VBR]

So many things have been fixed, broken, fixed again...

Made this for GT6, & sadly it's still valid.

I've not noticed the throttle problem yet myself, but then again I've hardly used my wheel in the game due to the awfully dull & lifeless FFB on the G29.

 

[Pfei]

Made this for GT6, & sadly it's still valid.

View attachment 816136


I've not noticed the throttle problem yet myself, but then again I've hardly used my wheel in the game due to the awfully dull & lifeless FFB on the G29.

Try 7/2/10 settings for the G29. The low torque value brings out a bit of life from the surface though you may feel the wheel is too light for your tastes. It's no AC or PC2 solution but it did help me.

Unfortunately still no change on the non-linear throttle implementation

 

[VBR]

Try 7/2/10 settings for the G29. The low torque value brings out a bit of life from the surface though you may feel the wheel is too light for your tastes. It's no AC or PC2 solution but it did help me.

Unfortunately still no change on the non-linear throttle implementation

Thanks, I'm on 7/4/10, & 2 is way too light for me. I went back & played GT6 just to see the difference in FFB, & it felt great; much clearer & stronger.

There's nothing "realistic" about it and they very well know it. It was done for parity between two very different control schemes as applied to the actual physics involved (scripted vs. player controlled gear changes). And only because people complained. Proper handling would require a rework of the drivetrain simulation, which we are yet to see (and is the likely reason the problem persists).

I would not be surprised if this throttle curve is another example of pandering to so-called "whiners" that ended up penalising everyone, probably following the beta (which didn't have this throttle issue). It may also prove to be partly exacerbated by some kind of simulation blind spot.

If this theory is correct, then it would be more evidence of the "nerf it don't fix it" mentality PD seems to be suffering from. Nerf the clutch, nerf the throttle, nerf chase cam by banning the rear view mirror & so on & so forth.

Someone should "throttle" Kaz & talk some sense into him!

 

[Rexracer702]

I've found the GR2 at Fuji TT a great place to practice and improve the 50-100% throttle control. It's how I've found about a second in the past couple of days.

That is the exact combo that I used to get used to using no TC.
Question...do we have any electronics wizards here? That is definitely not me, but I'm not stupid, and it seems to me there should be to make a circuit that can fix the throttle problem. Lets say the output from the throttle goes from 0 to 5 volts. For argument sake, lets say the output of the last 25% of throttle travel is from 4 to 5 volts. I want a circuit that will get the output of 3.5v to 5v spread out from 1/3 travel to full. Idealy, the exponential could be adjusted to taylor throttle position to the car being driven. I know nothing about how to make this happen, but I do know it's possible.
Does anyone here know how to do this?

 

[Traks1]

Reclaimed half of my PS4 HDD space by getting shot of this car collecting disappointment months ago due to it's wholly unrealistic and thoroughly unpleasant simulation of a driving simulation. AC, despite all it's many issues, at least feels and "drives" satisfyingly like a real car to me so that when I finish in my traditional "also ran" positions in online races at least the journey there was somewhat enjoyable. I'll just have to settle for that until something better comes along.

 

[BSDShoes]

Even the brakes isn't linear, noticed this when I installed a loadcell pedal. I thought great, I can turn off ABS now (be that yellow light guy again) but no that makes it even more inconsistent.

 

[Knukel]

Delete.

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

Made this for GT6, & sadly it's still valid.

View attachment 816136


I've not noticed the throttle problem yet myself, but then again I've hardly used my wheel in the game due to the awfully dull & lifeless FFB on the G29.

I have noticed I'm a little better with throttle modulation on the TG-T pedals but it requires tons of concentration. When I get it right, I find those extra few tenths I need.

 

[VBR]

Tested it out today, & I now know what you guys are on about. It's another one of those WTF were they thinking moments! It seems to me like the curve is back to front, it would be much more useful if it was the other way around. In fact, it would be much more useful overall if we had the option to set the linearity ourselves.

 

[breeminator]

Tested it out today, & I now know what you guys are on about. It's another one of those WTF were they thinking moments! It seems to me like the curve is back to front, it would be much more useful if it was the other way around. In fact, it would be much more useful overall if we had the option to set the linearity ourselves.

The really astounding thing, to me, is that it's still like this after 18 months. Even if there were some reason why linear doesn't work well, it wouldn't cause a problem if the game allowed you to set a value from -10 to +10, say, with 0 being linear, +10 being the current behaviour, -10 being the current curve the other way round, and the intermediate values progressive steps in between. It could just default to +10 so nothing changes for anyone unless they change the setting. This would surely be, like, 1/100th of the work needed to model one new car.

 

[DioEmsti]

I just got to play GT6 (only played GT on PS1) and was appalled to find out how imprecise the throttle control is for a 6th game in the series, even made a thread about it.

How come is this still an issue in GT Sport? I actually had plans on buying it one of these days but no more... dodged a bullet I guess.
A racing sim with non linear throttle, what madness is this? specially in a Sony game, what a BIG joke! And all the great reviews out there... I smell Sony marketing ploy. This should be reason enough to give the game a lot of mixed reviews.

GT6 is going into the bin for me, I can't believe I downloaded 10gb+ worth of patches and there's not even deadzone/linearity settings available I can only imagine those who spent big bucks on a racing wheel for this game.

 

[Pedinhuh]

I mean...Besides the throttle imput issue, lack of proper visual damage and physics, downright terrible penalty system at times, lack of dynamic weather and time and mostly "meh" vehicle selection outside of Japanese cars...The game is still pretty solid all around.

In terms of racing, so far this is the better game I have played on the PS4, beating both Driveclub and PC2.

 

[neskire]

So, this issue of, Non-linear brake and throttle response, is still in effect. Has anyone tried reporting it directly to PD? Or is there a petition we can sign for getting configurable sensitivity and dead zone for pedals? It’s clearly missing as every other simulator has this option.

Seen from a developers point of view, it would be a minor thing to just expose a 0-100 value for both properties under the setting screen.
I wouldn’t ask PD to change their game defaults in any way, just allow us to customize these 2 crucial settings.
Can anyone suggest where I can propose such a change while reporting the bug of non-linearity?

 

[superwally]

So, this issue of, Non-linear brake and throttle response, is still in effect. Has anyone tried reporting it directly to PD? Or is there a petition we can sign for getting configurable sensitivity and dead zone for pedals? It’s clearly missing as every other simulator has this option.

Seen from a developers point of view, it would be a minor thing to just expose a 0-100 value for both properties under the setting screen.
I wouldn’t ask PD to change their game defaults in any way, just allow us to customize these 2 crucial settings.
Can anyone suggest where I can propose such a change while reporting the bug of non-linearity?

I don't think you will get anywhere with PD, it's been over 2 years (including beta). It's likely not a bug. My opinion is the throttle mapping is deliberately like this. It masks physics or tire model issues that would make the cars too easy to drive at the limit, so difficulty is somewhat artificially increased by making the throttle pedal very difficult to modulate where you need the finest control.

Also, don't expect PD to make sense, or sensible decisions.

 

[neskire]

I don't think you will get anywhere with PD, it's been over 2 years (including beta). It's likely not a bug. My opinion is the throttle mapping is deliberately like this. It masks physics or tire model issues that would make the cars too easy to drive at the limit, so difficulty is somewhat artificially increased by making the throttle pedal very difficult to modulate where you need the finest control.

Also, don't expect PD to make sense, or sensible decisions.

I have an issue with the game being too easy, I also believe the axis mapping, both throttle and brake, is like this on purpose. Which is why I propose that this decision should ultimately be in the driver / users control. Hence an advanced setting with axis dead zone and sensitivity (going from 0 linear curve to 100 exponential curve). I believe the default setting is around 50 atm, which is what I wish to set to 0.

Question superwally, are you not bothered about the brake pedal outputting 100%, when only depressing the brake pedal 50-70%?
I’d think this is the main cause of lost time, not throttle sensitivity (albeit the throttle problem gets progressively worse the more torque and brake horse power a given car has). From my point of view, All cars have equal problems decelerating, no matter the size, engine or other specs. it seems like most GT sport drivers have just settled with keeping ABS on to mitigate this, but I cannot accept that, as it comes with its own downsides.