Not a SIM

[GOTMAXPOWER]

It must be said however that "hard to drive" does not always equal an accurate simulation either. Ask any driver and they'll say some games are harder to drive than their real cars (even when compensating for the lack of real-world interia).

F1 2019 is a good example, and after feedback from drivers like Lando Norris and George Russell, F1 2020 feels closer to the cars they drive every week.

It sounds like the same trap iRacing fell into. The Covid lockdown and pro drivers trying them on stream exposed that some of these sims are nowhere near as realistic as the marketing would suggest.

 

[IfAndOr]

The thing that worries me the most is that all those "sim racers" can't describe exactly what and how physics have been dulled from Pcars2.

From what I've seen from a varied selection of videos I'd say it wasn't dulled. A better word would be smoothed. On numerous occasions in the PC2 thread there's been people coming in and saying that they can't get along with the game because they just can't control the cars. A bit of smoothing of PC2's physics would go a long way to help with this. This doesn't mean that it's been watered-down beyond recognition though, just slightly less edgy hopefully. Which actually might not be a bad thing.

Most of the 'Tubers played the early career mode - and in every game that tends to "hold your hand" for awhile so that it doesn't frighten newcomers away. Difficulty would probably increase as you progressed. I did see one that only ran custom races and that looked much more promising.

 

[PJTierney]

Most of the 'Tubers played the early career mode - and in every game that tends to "hold your hand" for awhile so that it doesn't frighten newcomers away.

This is why Actrollvision's stream had decent value in it for some, he went straight to Custom, picked his favourite cars and tracks, and went at it.

 

[Wolfe]

That's not something they can really do live in their first hour with the game. Requires a few hours of focused research at least.

I understand it's not popular compelling content for a "first look" stream, but poking and prodding the physics is what I do in my first hour with any sim. Have all the complaints come from individuals who tried it out in a livestream and then gave up? I haven't been watching every video that gets posted here.

@oneloops posted a good list of questions for the people claiming the physics have been watered down. I could add some more examples:

• Can cars recover from oversteer when they probably shouldn't, such as when the rear wheels cross into the grass when the car is already sideways?
• Is it not possible to initiate oversteer properly with certain methods -- throttle lift, braking, "shift lock", clutch kick, weight transfer?
• Once you initiate a donut, can a RWD car continue to rotate after straightening the front wheels?
• Do mid- or rear-engined cars exhibit a degree of understeer when you get on the throttle in a corner?
• Is torque steer evident when one drivewheel spins faster than the other?

One of the first things I'm going to do with PCARS3 is go into a practice session with cars across all the drivetrain layouts and throw them around, running through a mental checklist like this.

 

[IfAndOr]

This is why Actrollvision's stream had decent value in it for some

Ah, that's the one. I couldn't remember his name. Thanks. 👍
(Actually I think it was from your link that I watched it)

Unlike some I've watched quite a selection, good and bad. I like to make my own opinion not be given one.

 

[PJTierney]

I understand it's not popular compelling content for a "first look" stream, but poking and prodding the physics is what I do in my first hour with any sim. Have all the complaints come from individuals who tried it out in a livestream and then gave up? I haven't been watching every video that gets posted here.

@oneloops posted a good list of questions for the people claiming the physics have been watered down. I could add some more examples:

• Can cars recover from oversteer when they probably shouldn't, such as when the rear wheels cross into the grass when the car is already sideways?
• Is it not possible to initiate oversteer properly with certain methods -- throttle lift, braking, "shift lock", clutch kick, weight transfer?
• Once you initiate a donut, can a RWD car continue to rotate after straightening the front wheels?
• Do mid- or rear-engined cars exhibit a degree of understeer when you get on the throttle in a corner?
• Is torque steer evident when one drivewheel spins faster than the other?

One of the first things I'm going to do with PCARS3 is go into a practice session with cars across all the drivetrain layouts and throw them around, running through a mental checklist like this.

I'll be curious to read what you find out from those tests.

First thing I do in any game, dive straight into the Options menus to see what's there

 

[FuriousDemon]

I think the best thing for each person would be to try the game themselves and decide whether it’s got good enough physics for them to enjoy or not. Since there is no demo, that is not really possible without spending money on the game. I will see what Scaff and Wolfe say instead as they both seem levelheaded and fair and don’t have a negative predisposition towards the game.

 

[IfAndOr]

@Wolfe here's the video I mentioned (if you haven't already seen it). Just custom races.
It's quite long!

First thing I do in any game, dive straight into the Options menus to see what's there

That sounds just like me. I like settings.

 

[Veinz]

Looks like a step back from the previous games, I will not try it without a demo though. Hopefully it doesn't bomb like F&F Crossroads.

 

[McLaren]

Looks like a step back from the previous games, I will not try it without a demo though. Hopefully it doesn't bomb like F&F Crossroads.

Nothing can bomb that hard. Last I looked, the player peak still remains at 54 & there's probably been less than 5 multiplayer matches since there's literally not enough people to start a match.

But, yes, definitely wouldn't be a good look if SMS goes for-2 in bad games.

 

[Wolfe]

First thing I do in any game, dive straight into the Options menus to see what's there

Of course that will be the very first thing, as with every single game.

I will see what Scaff and Wolfe say instead as they both seem levelheaded and fair and don’t have a negative predisposition towards the game.

Sorry, but my hands-on input will be late because it'll be a birthday gift from my wife for my birthday on September 30. After how PCARS2 went I figured it won't hurt to give SMS a few extra weeks to sort things out, you know. And it'll make the wife happy.

@Scaff knows what he's talking about. I'm flattered to be listed beside him as a source for commentary. Thank you.

 

[BFIFE22]

Nothing can bomb that hard. Last I looked, the player peak still remains at 54 & there's probably been less than 5 multiplayer matches since there's literally not enough people to start a match.

But, yes, definitely wouldn't be a good look if SMS goes for-2 in bad games.

Makes this quote all the more hilarious:

"Guess what the latest Need for Speed game is doing, and have a think about which Hollywood film they're copying," the CEO said. "And then I can tell you we have a six-year deal with that major Hollywood company that'll beat what Need for Speed is doing. For the next six years."

 

[McLaren]

Makes this quote all the more hilarious:

"Guess what the latest Need for Speed game is doing, and have a think about which Hollywood film they're copying," the CEO said. "And then I can tell you we have a six-year deal with that major Hollywood company that'll beat what Need for Speed is doing. For the next six years."

Yikes. That's as bad as Tudor claiming on Reddit that he's enjoying playing online with everyone.

 

[FuriousDemon]

Of course that will be the very first thing, as with every single game.


Sorry, but my hands-on input will be late because it'll be a birthday gift from my wife for my birthday on September 30. After how PCARS2 went I figured it won't hurt to give SMS a few extra weeks to sort things out, you know. And it'll make the wife happy.

@Scaff knows what he's talking about. I'm flattered to be listed beside him as a source for commentary. Thank you.

That’s right, I remember you say that. Yeah, it should have another patch or two by then to fix some of the biggest issues, so should be in a much better state (hopefully).

 

[Northstar]

I think the only positive thing about Crossroads is it came out after Codies cut the check. Had it come out before it probably would have knocked a 0 or two off.

 

[o000o]

I'd say the Touring Car variety is a bit weak. There are a ton of real-life TCR cars and they've appeared in games already with the Audi RS3 and the Volkswagen Golf in Grid with the Audi in a few others as well.


Yes. However, when you call it a Project CARS game, you tell the user that it's continuing the same philosophy from the previous game and that's Community Assisted Racing Simulation. Even though the first part of that had been reduced, the roots came from the community so it would still stand. Removing basic features that racing series are based on far removes that as well. The community will be annoyed when you removed features from a game.

For example, having the licensed IndyCar grid means nothing about simulating the Indy 500 if the maximum laps you can do is 99. I've done full Indy 500s with Elite Racing League on PCARS2 who moved to iRacing a while ago and had a ton of real-life IndyCar drivers in their races. I did an Indy 250 with a different league a few weeks ago. I've done races at Texas over 100 laps. And that's before we go into the lack of pitlane, tyre wear and fuel usage. If something as basic as that can't be done, then we're a long way away from the second PCARS in any way.

That's why people are insulted about this being a sequel. I couldn't care less about the "whatever they want to call it." It's about marketing line. If they said that "We have a new IP tailored to be a more fun title more akin to a Grid/Forza" then people would just question whether making a Grid clone makes sense rather than the removal of features in a sequel.

EA didn't call Need for Speed: Shift an Underground sequel to get people to buy a game they think would be like a sequel even though the devs could do it if they wanted.

EA called their 2012 game NFS Most Wanted despite almost no resemblance to the 2005 title.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I think the only positive thing about Crossroads is it came out after Codies cut the check. Had it come out before it probably would have knocked a 0 or two off.

Pahaha. SMS would have to pay Codies to give then a chance after that surely.

To bebfair to Crossroads it looks fun, just not for 60 quid.

 

[Pearl Jam]

To bebfair to Crossroads it looks fun, just not for 60 quid.

nah, it looks quite possibly one of the worst games ever created..driving or otherwise!

 

[Imari]

Not at all. Look at the movement of the cars in the videos, its what I'd call janky, rather than fluid. Mid power 4wd cars just sliding at the slightest nudge of steering. Im all for the notion that harder is not more realistic. iRacing is a great purveyor of that, cars are fundamentally easy to drive, i dont get in my car and crash everytime I drive it fast. Similarly it doesn't drift every time I turn into a corner at 60mph+.

There's also the potential to have a great sim engine, but just have setups on the cars that behave in weird ways. Pretty much every "hardcore" sim I've ever driven has at least one car that feels like garbage with the stock setup, but with a decent tune becomes really pleasant to drive.

 

[beyond72]

Also it's not Pro-ject cars 3 if you're in the UK.

 

[Kinna39]

This really is a stupid argument.

It's not a sim anymore, but calling it PC3 isn't lying to you. No PC1 & PC2 fan who loves their sim racing is going to go down to the store and buy this without knowing what they are getting already. They would have seen the trailers, seen the early streamers, or been in the forums. SMS aren't tricking anyone.

They were in no-mans-land before - not sim enough for the hardcore people, and too simmy (or borderline unplayable with a pad) for the casual/arcade fans. They've pivoted their focus to try and expand their audience, because hardcore sim is too niche and they weren't quite there anyway.

All that said, calling it PC3 is more likely to backfire on them the other way - the casual racing game fans who were turned off by the sim aspects of 1&2 are less likely to have seen all this pre-release content chatter, and more likely to ignore the game as a result.

 

[MagpieRacer]

This really is a stupid argument.

It's not a sim anymore, but calling it PC3 isn't lying to you. No PC1 & PC2 fan who loves their sim racing is going to go down to the store and buy this without knowing what they are getting already. They would have seen the trailers, seen the early streamers, or been in the forums. SMS aren't tricking anyone.

They were in no-mans-land before - not sim enough for the hardcore people, and too simmy (or borderline unplayable with a pad) for the casual/arcade fans. They've pivoted their focus to try and expand their audience, because hardcore sim is too niche and they weren't quite there anyway.

All that said, calling it PC3 is more likely to backfire on them the other way - the casual racing game fans who were turned off by the sim aspects of 1&2 are less likely to have seen all this pre-release content chatter, and more likely to ignore the game as a result.

For me it's not the fact it's called PC3, that doesn't bother me, it's the actual commenta and promises from the CEO and others from SMS who have clearly promised and stated things that don't hold true.

However like I say I will wait for some more trusted opinions but it doesn't look good for them so far.

 

[Bloodytears]

Haha, what does it really means "hard" or "easy" to drive? You mean on default set up made by developers? Because for me every car could be made into both - easy to drive and hard to drive and something in between. For example it felt for me that GT Sport fixed settings is hard to drive due understeer, but you can make it turn relatively into oversteering machine close to Project Cars 2 default loose setup. The same goes vice versa, except GT giving much less freedom in mashing up. Did any one who have the game, have any deep view on set ups and tuning, except out of box driving, or this is not a thing anymore?

 

[FT-1]

All that said, calling it PC3 is more likely to backfire on them the other way - the casual racing game fans who were turned off by the sim aspects of 1&2 are less likely to have seen all this pre-release content chatter, and more likely to ignore the game as a result.

I suppose that is where popular content creators come into the picture. People like KuruHS, Dubs and StraightUpHippo make content primarily focused on casual racing games and they have favourable things to say about Project CARS 3. If influencers can get the word out to the target market that this is the game they are looking for, this could be less of an issue.

 

[David Wright]

They were in no-mans-land before - not sim enough for the hardcore people, and too simmy (or borderline unplayable with a pad) for the casual/arcade fans. They've pivoted their focus to try and expand their audience, because hardcore sim is too niche and they weren't quite there anyway.

What you call no-mans-land I'd call their own niche. They were never trying to make a "hardcore" sim in terms of driving difficulty because they believe hardcore sims are unrealistically hard to drive. They did believe in making a hardcore sim in terms of the physics engine and livetrack system which are actually very advanced as Reiza confirmed when they chose the Madness Engine.

So did they have to leave this niche - more hardcore than Forza or Gran Turismo, easier to drive than iRacing? Is there really no room for this kind of sim?

The success of Project Cars in terms of sales would suggest there is a good sized market for such a sim - 3 million copies sold is way bigger than for an iRacing type sim which recently reached the 100,000 subscriber mark. Now of course, the market for a Forza or GT type game is even bigger but competing directly with these giants doesn't guarantee success, as SMS attempt to take on Need for Speed with Fast & Furious shows. Time will tell.

 

[ynot]

That's just silly. There are absolutely things that you can judge based on a youtube video. The exact nuances of the handling aren't going to be one of them, but you can get a pretty good feel for roughly how it will drive and what the gameplay will be like when you've been playing these types of games for decades.

And when what it looks like is a Forza/GT level sim and that's pretty much exactly what the developers have claimed they're trying to make it's not really a huge leap to assume that it's true.

People's perceptions of PC3 from videos aren't the problem. I'd say most people are pretty spot on in terms of describing what it is. The problem is that some people were expecting the next level of simulation on console, despite all the marketing to the contrary. Frankly, I'm surprised games like PC2/AC/ACC make it onto consoles at all. You don't see MS Flight Simulator and DCS getting console releases, you get War Thunder and Ace Combat.

Well in the end they are all video games and not sims. Still looking forward to giving it a try before I make judgment. Just hoping the fun factor is there. Waiting for GT7 too.

 

[Tool1312]

 

[Cyclonus]

Good i don’t care if it’s not a sim anymore if I wanted one that bad I’ll get ACC! Lol

 

[MroczMR]

Good i don’t care if it’s not a sim anymore if I wanted one that bad I’ll get ACC! Lol

Unfortunately it isn't good arcade game either.

 

[FT-1]

Good i don’t care if it’s not a sim anymore if I wanted one that bad I’ll get ACC! Lol

It's certainly more fun to play than the first two games, especially if you are into arcade games and play on a gamepad. 👍