Not being able to remove engine/weight stages = DUMB!!!!

[freight48]

This is what I always wonder... amid a fray of excuses and rationalizations why something isn't BAD why does no one ever explain why it's good?

Teaches you to manage your tuning? Instead of slapping on everything?

 

[freedomweasel]

Teaches you to manage your tuning? Instead of slapping on everything?

But only some of the time? Why is it good that I can remove every other part in the game, or put it back on, with the click of a button except weight and engine changes.

Further, when did GT5 become a "tuning management tutor"?

 

[OwensRacing]

Engine builds are not something you "take" off. It not a bolt on part.

Weight is the same. They hack up the car to get weight off it. You can't just put it back. I guess with a welder. But really.

Real world backs these up. Which makes sense why GT5 does this.

 

[freedomweasel]

Engine builds are not something you "take" off. It not a bolt on part.

Weight is the same. They hack up the car to get weight off it. You can't just put it back. I guess with a welder. But really.

Real world backs these up. Which makes sense why GT5 does this.

If you take the weight off, you can put it back on.

Secondly, it's a game, how does this design decision make the game better.

Thirdly, for every example of "it makes the game more real" I can show you two examples that are completely asinine and fake.
eg: paint shop with the inability to paint a car unless you've owned a car of the same color. Or the ability to buy a new Mercedes 300SL whenever you want, but you can't ever buy a new Jaguar XFR.

 

[deftonesmx17]

Some of us actually find fun in realism.
Real world backs these up. Which makes sense why GT5 does this

People cheering that it is realistic completely ignore the fact that when you do weight reductions, none of the parts are actually removed; your rear seats will still 🤬 be there. Lets also not forget that when adding chassis reinforcement, there are no additional parts or weight added. That is not realistic. Lets also not forget that replacing your driveshaft with a carbon one which is done to reduce weight, does not 🤬 reduce the cars weight in GT5.

I will also never get over the fact that tuning parts are a standard price. There is no damn way in hell a new exhaust for a Ferrari and a Ford Focus would cost the same.

I also love how changing the windows gives the exact same weight reduction on every 🤬 car. Yeah, because all cars on the entire 🤬 planet have the exact same amount of, and type of glass used for windows. Oh yeah, the same goes for hoods if I'm not mistaken as well.

I've only touched the surface of the fantasy that is car tuning in GT5. Once you people open your eyes and see how faulty it really is, you'll maybe realize that using realism as an argument for not being able to detune things in regards to GT5 is 🤬 laughable.

 

[brainfade]

Have you read this thread at all?

How can you join into a multipage thread and not pick-up/know jack-all about what people are talking about and how they have already addressed the exact points you just used to support your argument?

Did you just come from GT fanboy land or something?

That was a direct reply to the 1st post in the thread, don't bother questioning my knowledge because if you knew where i worked you'd wet your pants and cry.

 

[deftonesmx17]

don't bother questioning my knowledge because if you knew where i worked you'd wet your pants and cry.

This is an e-penis post if I have ever seen one

 

[dudejo]

i have a genius idea in regards to weight reductions.

the Ballast adjustment could have a negative value to REMOVE weight.

that would be to REPLACE the base level permanent reduction that simply takes out passenger seats and other easily detachable objects.

things that require cutting and/or welding should be a final deal but things like seats, radio, carpets, bla bla bla bla should be represented by an adjustable value.

heck, even those two "padding" upgrades. the lightweight windows and carbon fiber hood. they should be part of that adjustable value. windows and hoods are designed to be replaceable in case of severe damage.

it worries me that i can think of better ideas than PD themselves within an hour.

 

[OwensRacing]

Some people have no real world experience and it shows.


Not even gonna attempt to explain anything else. I worked hard gaining knowledge.

Will touch one thing. Carbon shaft is to reduce rotational mass. The weight saved is minimal. However rotational mass responds to lower weight differences.

The game is not perfect.

Please do not ever compare a paint job to performance modding. EVER ahahahaha

Maybe some decals could be added. Those make HP.


FWIW I unsubscribed, so there will be no defense or response from me in this thread.

Happy Racing

 

[Devedander]

That was a direct reply to the 1st post in the thread, don't bother questioning my knowledge because if you knew where i worked you'd wet your pants and cry.

Doesn't matter who you are replying to, it behoves you to catch up on the thread so you don't look silly when saying something as fact when its been addressed that its not true.

Where do you work? Somehwere that door panels and seats can't be put back in after being taken out? Somewhere that an engone can't be sleeved back o stock displacement? Is this an alternate universe you work in?

 

[deftonesmx17]

Will touch one thing. Carbon shaft is to reduce rotational mass. The weight saved is minimal. However rotational mass responds to lower weight differences.

I am aware of this, but a 10-20lb weight reduction is important. You are ignoring the big picture while focusing on that one thing. The fact that it is completely ignored in GT5 is a problem. If it isn't important then people should not bother removing their spare tire because the weight saved is minimal...

Remember the windows weight reduction? In GT5 that reduces 10kg I believe, which is roughly 22lbs. So it's pretty close to the minimal amount of reduction provided by a light-weight driveshaft. If you find such a small amount to not be important, what is the point in doing the window weight reduction? I'll tell you why, because every little thing adds up and should change something (the big picture). As I pointed out before, adding chassis reinforcement not altering the weight is a huge mistake.

At least Forza got these things correct regardless of it's other issues. Every part alters weight regardless if it is a +/- and that is exactly how it is in real life.

 

[dabest2500]

I wouldn't mind being able to remove them, but the more features the better.

 

[freedomweasel]

Some people have no real world experience and it shows.

Please do not ever compare a paint job to performance modding. EVER ahahahaha

Maybe some decals could be added. Those make HP.


FWIW I unsubscribed, so there will be no defense or response from me in this thread.

Happy Racing

I used the paint shop as an example of something that was also not based on reality. You're either trolling or failed to read the post.

I'll say it again, even though you won't read it. What does real world experience have to do with a video game? I am fully aware that for are practical purposes the real modifications done to engines are not reversible. . However, it's a video game, it should be fun, not a pain in the butt.

I'd love to hear why I'm unable to go back to a stock hood after switching it for carbon. With all your real world knowledge experience, how do you explain that one?

 

[charliec]

I am aware of this, but a 10-20lb weight reduction is important. You are ignoring the big picture while focusing on that one thing. The fact that it is completely ignored in GT5 is a problem. If it isn't important then people should not bother removing their spare tire because the weight saved is minimal...

Remember the windows weight reduction? In GT5 that reduces 10kg I believe, which is roughly 22lbs. So it's pretty close to the minimal amount of reduction provided by a light-weight driveshaft. If you find such a small amount to not be important, what is the point in doing the window weight reduction? I'll tell you why, because every little thing adds up and should change something (the big picture). As I pointed out before, adding chassis reinforcement not altering the weight is a huge mistake.

At least Forza got these things correct regardless of it's other issues. Every part alters weight regardless if it is a +/- and that is exactly how it is in real life.

Just to play devil's advocate, the weight reduction is pretty unimportant considering the location (center and low) versus a window weight reduction (outside and high). Reducing weight via a CF driveshaft makes almost no change to your center of gravity (may even raise it a bit) or handling.

I mean...yea, every pound counts, but honestly as long as the reduction in rotating mass is reflected in the performance, the reduction in weight of the vehicle is about as minor as it could be.

 

[Devedander]

Teaches you to manage your tuning? Instead of slapping on everything?

That's would work if the decision was somehow an educated one. But since there is no way to know how these changes would effect your car until doing them, there is no "management" possible as the choice cannot be an informed one.

 

[Holyman]

Umm, if the car in question costs less than 1m Credits, you could always dupe it before you mod it...

Just saying...

 

[Bigbazz]

The engine tuning increases the bore of the engine, includes polishing of ports and modifications that require new parts. You wanna change your mind on that in real life then you need a new engine.

 

[deftonesmx17]

Just to play devil's advocate, the weight reduction is pretty unimportant considering the location (center and low) versus a window weight reduction (outside and high). Reducing weight via a CF driveshaft makes almost no change to your center of gravity (may even raise it a bit) or handling.

I mean...yea, every pound counts, but honestly as long as the reduction in rotating mass is reflected in the performance, the reduction in weight of the vehicle is about as minor as it could be.

I'm sorry, but it is all important. Yes, certain locations do make a difference, but this is just one example. You are still ignoring the big picture just as GT5 ignored the big picture and to simply ignore the big picture is incredibly daft.

Like I said, it's not just the driveshaft. I merely used that as an example because they are most commonly referred to as a light-weight replacement. Considering the words light and weight are used is significant and is inexcusable for those two very words used to be utterly ignored.

Everyone seems to be stuck on me using that for an example so let me ask you about some other things.

Do stock turbos and aftermarket ones have the same weight?
Does stock suspension and aftermarket racing suspension have the same weight?
Does a car with a roll cage have the same weight as one without (chassis reinforcement)?
Does a racing transmission have the same weight as a stock one?

In Gran Turismo fantasy land, all of those parts do indeed have the same weight...
Those are just a few examples as I have still not listed them all, but coming closer to the big picture. <- That is what I am really on about.

People always use realism as a reason for things in GT like not being able to detune while ignoring the fact that tuning in GT is so far from realistic that it doesn't even matter.

 

[freedomweasel]

The engine tuning increases the bore of the engine, includes polishing of ports and modifications that require new parts. You wanna change your mind on that in real life then you need a new engine.

This is 100% true.

However, we are discussing a video game, one which contains countless inaccuracies compared to "real life".

If everyone is so hellbent on keeping the game super "real", what's the harm in charging me a few grand to take the tuning off, in effect, charging me for a new engine. Or having an option to allow the engine rebuild to bring the engine back to stock?

People always use realism as a reason for things in GT like not being able to detune while ignoring the fact that tuning in GT is so far from realistic that it doesn't even matter.

Yeah, I think I'm done with this thread. It's the same response over and over without bothering to read the rest of the replies..

 

[dj-smurph]

Just about anything could be removed in real life, it would just be an enormous pain in the butt. Why not make it an option in a game? Stuff like weight reduction should be reversible, same with engine stages.

There are too many inconsistencies in the game to claim that it should be realistic in tuning, but completely fake in painting for example.

Weight reduction in real life means butchering the chassis and adding lightweight panels. All of which is nigh on impossible to remove. Same with most engine mods. There is no way to undo a blueprinted fully balanced engine. But why would you want to as the engine is then how the designer wanted it.

 

[charliec]

I'm sorry, but it is all important. Yes, certain locations do make a difference, but this is just one example. You are still ignoring the big picture just as GT5 ignored the big picture and to simply ignore the big picture is incredibly daft.

Like I said, it's not just the driveshaft. I merely used that as an example because they are most commonly referred to as a light-weight replacement. Considering the words light and weight are used is significant and is inexcusable for those two very words used to be utterly ignored.

Everyone seems to be stuck on me using that for an example so let me ask you about some other things.

Do stock turbos and aftermarket ones have the same weight?
Does stock suspension and aftermarket racing suspension have the same weight?
Does a car with a roll cage have the same weight as one without (chassis reinforcement)?
Does a racing transmission have the same weight as a stock one?

In Gran Turismo fantasy land, all of those parts do indeed have the same weight...
Those are just a few examples as I have still not listed them all, but coming closer to the big picture. <- That is what I am really on about.
People always use realism as a reason for things in GT like not being able to detune while ignoring the fact that tuning in GT is so far from realistic that it doesn't even matter.

Ha ha, okay first, I wasn't disagreeing with you. The point I was making specifically about the drive shaft is that the inconsistency isn't worth getting bent out of shape over.

You seem to be aware that this is a video game and tuning section is created for the casual gamer, not for someone looking for 100% authentic reproduction of a tuning experience. The drive shaft is not different.

The reality is there are WAY too many variables for them to take into account. With the driveshaft for example, there are cars that have a stock CF driveshaft. To be accurate, the way you seem to want, they would need to know the weight of every stock driveshaft for every car in the game. Does this seem like a reasonable thing to expect? No. People buy CF driveshafts for the reduction in rotating weight, so this is where the performance gain in seen. No one buys it to reduce curb weight (in real life).

Regarding the weights of transmissions, turbos, suspensions, etc, again, there are hundreds and hundreds of different kind in the real world. Are you supposed to have a list of every real manufacturer of every compatible part for every car along with every weight? No. Not reasonable.

As far as chassis reinforcement, what is that weight from? How many point roll-bar? What material? What size? What thickness? Is it seamwelded? Did they remove any additional material? Unless you can give an answer for all of those, it won't be accurate.

I mean seriously, if this is preventing you from enjoying the game, maybe you need to stop playing and go get a job at a tuning garage or something. The physics of the game are the focus. Tuning has never been. This isn't anything new.

 

[freedomweasel]

Weight reduction in real life means butchering the chassis and adding lightweight panels. All of which is nigh on impossible to remove. Same with most engine mods. There is no way to undo a blueprinted fully balanced engine. But why would you want to as the engine is then how the designer wanted it.

Did you read anything beyond the post you quoted?

 

[dj-smurph]

Did you read anything beyond the post you quoted?

Yeah but this one seemed pertinant

 

[freedomweasel]

Yeah but this one seemed pertinant

Then, the same answer as has been given before:

GT5 is a game. The game contains countless bits and pieces which are incredibly fake and not based on reality. What harm will one more be? How does the game improve by not allowing the reversal of engine tuning and weight reduction?

Stage 1 reduction, which I would assume is a basic interior removal is easily reversible if you want to go "super real".
Also, if you want to keep this small part of the game "super real" why not have the ability to reverse the upgrades just called "buy new chassis" or "buy new engine" if that makes it seem so much better?

 

[deftonesmx17]

Ha ha, okay first, I wasn't disagreeing with you. The point I was making specifically about the drive shaft is that the inconsistency isn't worth getting bent out of shape over.

You seem to be aware that this is a video game and tuning section is created for the casual gamer, not for someone looking for 100% authentic reproduction of a tuning experience. The drive shaft is not different.

The reality is there are WAY too many variables for them to take into account. With the driveshaft for example, there are cars that have a stock CF driveshaft. To be accurate, the way you seem to want, they would need to know the weight of every stock driveshaft for every car in the game. Does this seem like a reasonable thing to expect? No. People buy CF driveshafts for the reduction in rotating weight, so this is where the performance gain in seen. No one buys it to reduce curb weight (in real life).

Regarding the weights of transmissions, turbos, suspensions, etc, again, there are hundreds and hundreds of different kind in the real world. Are you supposed to have a list of every real manufacturer of every compatible part for every car along with every weight? No. Not reasonable.

As far as chassis reinforcement, what is that weight from? How many point roll-bar? What material? What size? What thickness? Is it seamwelded? Did they remove any additional material? Unless you can give an answer for all of those, it won't be accurate.

I mean seriously, if this is preventing you from enjoying the game, maybe you need to stop playing and go get a job at a tuning garage or something. The physics of the game are the focus. Tuning has never been. This isn't anything new.

Odd, Turn 10 seemed to have managed adding in my unreasonable request. Even if it wasn't 100% accurate, every single part changed it. Excuse me for preferring things be "closely" taken into account vs completely ignored.

As for Physics, pretty hard to say the physics are anywhere near accurate when things are simply ignored, isn't it?

Tell the developers of real simulators (not games) that it's ok to utterly ignore things like this. They'll agree with me that a close representation is much better than no representation.

Honestly, manufactures do know the weight of every single part of their car and can provide the developer with it. Sure, it may only be perfect world accurate, but like I said, that is leaps and bounds better than being completely inaccurate.

I said it before and I'll say it again. I know people don't buy carbon driveshafts just to reduce curb weight. However, since everyone seems to think that isn't important, why is it normally the first thing companies use as an example of it's advantage?

This company makes 6lb racing driveshafts. That is a huge difference compared to say a 30lb two piece stock one.

http://www.pstds.com/critical_link_drive_shafts.htm
Advantages of Carbon Fiber

Lighter than steel or aluminum.
Three times torsional strength of steel.
Torsional spring rate allows better tire hook-up.
Torsional spring rate allows smoother shifting.
Less shock load to the differential.
Eliminates or dampens high speed vibrations.
Reduces transmission and differential breakage.
Characteristics can be varied by changing the wind, angles or diameter. PST offers both steel and 7075 Billet Aluminum yokes.
In drag racing applications - a better 60 Ft. time.
ET's have been lowered in some cases by as much as .120.
In stock car racing better control out of corners is the result of the torsional spring rate.
In road racing smoother shifting and better durability of transmission and differential have been reported.
Tested on Cobra's at 180 MPH on Dyno with no vibrations.
A much greater safety factor - carbon fiber will return to a fiber and not create shrapnel under the car, as would aluminum or steel shafts.

 

[Bigbazz]

This is 100% true.

However, we are discussing a video game, one which contains countless inaccuracies compared to "real life".

If everyone is so hellbent on keeping the game super "real", what's the harm in charging me a few grand to take the tuning off, in effect, charging me for a new engine. Or having an option to allow the engine rebuild to bring the engine back to stock?




Yeah, I think I'm done with this thread. It's the same response over and over without bothering to read the rest of the replies..

I agree it would be nice to do, but since they added the power % reduction thing, you can do exactly that by a different means. Some people are complaining about this very subject as if it is an inaccuracy, when infact PD have got this part right.

Goes to show that people are posting about things that they do not fully understand themselves.

 

[freedomweasel]

I agree it would be nice to do, but since they added the power % reduction thing, you can do exactly that by a different means. Some people are complaining about this very subject as if it is an inaccuracy, when infact PD have got this part right.

Goes to show that people are posting about things that they do not fully understand themselves.

This has also been covered several times in the thread.

The power limiter charges the curve of the power delivery and you can not go back to stock power and stock delivery.

The ballast does not tell you weight distribution, so you can not go back to stock weight and distribution.

 

[charliec]

Odd, Turn 10 seemed to have managed adding in my unreasonable request. Even if it wasn't 100% accurate, every single part changed it. Excuse me for preferring things be "closely" taken into account vs completely ignored.

As for Physics, pretty hard to say the physics are anywhere near accurate when things are simply ignored, isn't it?

Tell the developers of real simulators (not games) that it's ok to utterly ignore things like this. They'll agree with me and Turn 10 that a close representation is much better than no representation.

Honestly, manufactures do know the weight of every single part of their car and can provide the developer with it. Sure, it may only be perfect world accurate, but like I said, that is leaps and bounds better than being completely inaccurate.

So inaccurate in your favor is okay but inaccurate not in your favor is not okay? That's an arbitrary line to draw if you're just upset about it being inaccurate.

Driving physics, by the way, does not equal "why didn't this no-name imaginary suspension component subtract an arbitrary amount of weight".

Honestly, there's way too many variables to assume every aftermarket part will reduce weight by "X" from every car. You realize they also probably don't penalize you with extra weight for turbo/supercharging a car that is NA stock? Does that bother you?

If you allow something so pointless to prevent you from enjoying the game...well, I feel sorry for you.

Inaccurate is inaccurate as far as I'm concerned. If you can't have fun with a game because you think your car is 30kgs heavier than what it should be, so be it. It doesn't affect my enjoyment 👍

 

[charliec]

I said it before and I'll say it again. I know people don't buy carbon driveshafts just to reduce curb weight. However, since everyone seems to think that isn't important, why is it normally the first thing companies use as an example of it's advantage?

This company makes 6lb racing driveshafts. That is a huge difference compared to say a 30lb two piece stock one...

Just saw the edit, any company that sells CF (or aluminum) driveshafts and lists a reduction in curb weight as the primary advantage is speaking to the lowest common denominator.

That is the least important location to reduce curb weight. 99% of the benefit is derived from the reduction in rotating mass and increased drivetrain efficiency (depending on material there can also be safety, reliability improvements, etc).

 

[charliec]

I said it before and I'll say it again. I know people don't buy carbon driveshafts just to reduce curb weight. However, since everyone seems to think that isn't important, why is it normally the first thing companies use as an example of it's advantage?

This company makes 6lb racing driveshafts. That is a huge difference compared to say a 30lb two piece stock one.

http://www.pstds.com/critical_link_drive_shafts.htm
Advantages of Carbon Fiber

Lighter than steel or aluminum.
Three times torsional strength of steel.
Torsional spring rate allows better tire hook-up.
Torsional spring rate allows smoother shifting.
Less shock load to the differential.
Eliminates or dampens high speed vibrations.
Reduces transmission and differential breakage.
Characteristics can be varied by changing the wind, angles or diameter. PST offers both steel and 7075 Billet Aluminum yokes.
In drag racing applications - a better 60 Ft. time.
ET's have been lowered in some cases by as much as .120.
In stock car racing better control out of corners is the result of the torsional spring rate.
In road racing smoother shifting and better durability of transmission and differential have been reported.
Tested on Cobra's at 180 MPH on Dyno with no vibrations.
A much greater safety factor - carbon fiber will return to a fiber and not create shrapnel under the car, as would aluminum or steel shafts.

Also, where in this list does it talk about reducing curb weight? Am I missing it? The first thing here is just pointing out that it's lighter, which is where the reduction in rotating mass comes from. That's most of the gain and benefit. Not from reducing curb weight.