Nurburgring 24hr report

[GTXLR]

That driving sucks.

Someone who drove it beated gold time for 25 seconds (which is pretty unbelievable, and it is more unbelieavble that Flinx is just 5 sec slower, but what the green-hell) but from my point of view, that driving just ruined my excitement about GT4's driving mechanics and made all those "we made a model that correspondence with physics in real life... 2% margin... taking into conern the nature of the track... real driving simulator" a pure crap. Did a lap, made a 6.23 from the first try and won a bronze, but silver should be no problem after some time with the car. But the driving shown in demo - it is just buttload of bull.

Did not believe I'll ever say just written above, but this driving is worse even than ridiciluos driving in the first GT. And we all know what was possible in that days. Shame for the game.

AMAR CALM DOWN!

This is a License test.
All License tests in my experience have driver Aids enable, TCS is definately enabled in the vid, and may be even ASM.

The Driver of that lap could not go anywhere near as quick as that, if it was tried in sim race without the driver assistance aids.

Only when no driver Aids are enabled will you be able to compare with real world times, you are getting dissapointed because you can go faster with driver aids on, dont use them, but dont criticise PDs physics engine and realism because of it.

Better to try lapping it yourself, and compare to real world times, but with out driver aids and not using unrealistic tyres, then you can comment more realistically on the level of realism.

Come on AMAR think sensibly. 👍

 

[VT]

Very well said Scaff.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Also, take into account that the track in game is simulating the perfect conditions. The 'Ring in real life can have varied weather over a lap; in GT4, you're working with an empty track in perfect weather, with no deterioration of the car over said lap. Sure, the driver in that video made some errors, but that time is not "out there" like people are making it out to be.

Pink_The_Floyd: Who said Le Mans cars were heavy? Perhaps in comparison to F1's, but iirc, Group C cars were only around 800 or so kilos. I know the 787B was 830kg. Also, someone said it could keep up with an F1 in acceleration from it's era, not neccessarily the current ones.

 

[cobragt]

I dont think that was unrealistic at all. you all have to realize that this is a game and there's no fear in games, period. TSC was on.

 

[Watana]

new stunning time:
Flinx S16.max 5'25

Maybe it's not a time to do in real life,...but whenever you try this test and find it to easy beat this time.

 

[Pink_the_Floyd]

Also, take into account that the track in game is simulating the perfect conditions. The 'Ring in real life can have varied weather over a lap; in GT4, you're working with an empty track in perfect weather, with no deterioration of the car over said lap. Sure, the driver in that video made some errors, but that time is not "out there" like people are making it out to be.

Pink_The_Floyd: Who said Le Mans cars were heavy? Perhaps in comparison to F1's, but iirc, Group C cars were only around 800 or so kilos. I know the 787B was 830kg. Also, someone said it could keep up with an F1 in acceleration from it's era, not neccessarily the current ones.

Look at Le Mans on TV and then look at an F1 grand prix....much difference. LM cars cant keep up F1's in acceleration but they have a higher top speed.

 

[Dave A]

Can somoene host that vid of Flinx's on yousendit.com, I can't get acces to that site.

And F1 cars are only geared to have better acceleration and slower top speed because on current tracks they don't reach thoes speeds anymore.

 

[Scaff]

Very well said Scaff.

Ta very much

 

[Caligula1]

Am I the only one who is peeved that you can't save a 24 hour race mid-race?

Has no one considered the strain put on the PS2 if say, you race 6 hours per day over 4 days and have to leave the PS2 on until the race has finished?

 

[cjrciadt]

Am I the only one who is peeved that you can't save a 24 hour race mid-race?

Has no one considered the strain put on the PS2 if say, you race 6 hours per day over 4 days and have to leave the PS2 on until the race has finished?

It is a vaild concern you make. However I own a PS2 (bought 10.26.00 1st released in U.S.) and it run flawlessly even today for hours as long you take car of it. Just a like an automobile abuse it and it will give out. Take care of it and it will take care of you. 👍

 

[Omnis]

edit: oops. disregard this.

 

[m7ammed]

so there is no save?

 

[toler]

Can somoene host that vid of Flinx's on yousendit.com, I can't get acces to that site.

And F1 cars are only geared to have better acceleration and slower top speed because on current tracks they don't reach thoes speeds anymore.

it´s not a vid. it´s just the replay file. maybe someone with a capture card can make a video of it !?

 

[Gil Abobeleira]

Well guys, as a sportscar (and ring) anorak, sorry but doing a sub 5.m30 at the ring with a C9 is impossible. I'll tell you why:

- at the speed he's travelling at the flugplatz, the C9 would fly (like the clr ar LM'99) as it would catch air under it (flat bottom + tunnels);
- 300km/h at the double righthander after flugplatz? No way (it's just not realistic!!! You cannot go against the law of physics) going that fast at a medium (it's not a fast corner, just a medium corner!!!!);
- again, at that speed, he would just "fly" at schwedenkreuz because of the bump (again, air getting below the car);
- etecetera (i could go on with this the all lap).

This just shows that the physics are just not realistic, abs and tcs on or off (if you get a full ground effects car with air under it, no abs or traction control or whatever will save you!!!!!). It's a pitty having such a beatiful track ruined by so poor physics (realistic wise)...

 

[Pink_the_Floyd]

Well guys, as a sportscar (and ring) anorak, sorry but doing a sub 5.m30 at the ring with a C9 is impossible. I'll tell you why:

- at the speed he's travelling at the flugplatz, the C9 would fly (like the clr ar LM'99) as it would catch air under it (flat bottom + tunnels);
- 300km/h at the double righthander after flugplatz? No way (it's just not realistic!!! You cannot go against the law of physics) going that fast at a medium (it's not a fast corner, just a medium corner!!!!);
- again, at that speed, he would just "fly" at schwedenkreuz because of the bump (again, air getting below the car);
- etecetera (i could go on with this the all lap).

This just shows that the physics are just not realistic, abs and tcs on or off (if you get a full ground effects car with air under it, no abs or traction control or whatever will save you!!!!!). It's a pitty having such a beatiful track ruined by so poor physics (realistic wise)...

👍

 

[GTmaniac]

new stunning time:
Flinx S16.max 5'25

Maybe it's not a time to do in real life,...but whenever you try this test and find it to easy beat this time.

Danke Watana
I will take a look at it as soon as I get the game! 👍
P.S I'm looking foward to take that time down!!

 

[Pink_the_Floyd]

Can somebody post a vid of a GT-ONE doing a lap?PLEEEEEEEASE!!!!!

 

[the Interceptor]

Can somoene host that vid of Flinx's on yousendit.com, I can't get acces to that site.

http://s8.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0BPN2YGFHR3NZ3U7CVPO7R1G5S

This is a repost of the S 16 Vid, it's not Flinx driving the car though. If you meant Flinx' replay, it's "only" a replay in MaxDrive format.

 

[cobragt]

Well guys, as a sportscar (and ring) anorak, sorry but doing a sub 5.m30 at the ring with a C9 is impossible. I'll tell you why:

- at the speed he's travelling at the flugplatz, the C9 would fly (like the clr ar LM'99) as it would catch air under it (flat bottom + tunnels);
- 300km/h at the double righthander after flugplatz? No way (it's just not realistic!!! You cannot go against the law of physics) going that fast at a medium (it's not a fast corner, just a medium corner!!!!);
- again, at that speed, he would just "fly" at schwedenkreuz because of the bump (again, air getting below the car);
- etecetera (i could go on with this the all lap).

This just shows that the physics are just not realistic, abs and tcs on or off (if you get a full ground effects car with air under it, no abs or traction control or whatever will save you!!!!!). It's a pitty having such a beatiful track ruined by so poor physics (realistic wise)...

Does gt4 have damage effects? How would a car in gt4 flipping without damage look? the physics are realistic

 

[[SS]Ares]

Well guys, as a sportscar (and ring) anorak, sorry but doing a sub 5.m30 at the ring with a C9 is impossible. I'll tell you why:

- at the speed he's travelling at the flugplatz, the C9 would fly (like the clr ar LM'99) as it would catch air under it (flat bottom + tunnels);
- 300km/h at the double righthander after flugplatz? No way (it's just not realistic!!! You cannot go against the law of physics) going that fast at a medium (it's not a fast corner, just a medium corner!!!!);
- again, at that speed, he would just "fly" at schwedenkreuz because of the bump (again, air getting below the car);
- etecetera (i could go on with this the all lap).

This just shows that the physics are just not realistic, abs and tcs on or off (if you get a full ground effects car with air under it, no abs or traction control or whatever will save you!!!!!). It's a pitty having such a beatiful track ruined by so poor physics (realistic wise)...

excactly the reason why im only gonna drive roadcars on street tires on the N-ring

 

[Cosmic]

so there is no save?

Is that true?

 

[F310B]

I suppose with driving a high-powered group C car around the high speed Nurburgring, the GT physics are stretched to their limit, and a bit beyond it has to be said. But still, I watch that video and it looks not too bad if you consider the main shortcomings are to do with bumps, dips and rises in the road surface. Have any other games attempted to simulate the Sauber C9 at the Nurburgring?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Look at Le Mans on TV and then look at an F1 grand prix....much difference. LM cars cant keep up F1's in acceleration but they have a higher top speed.

Again... I wasn't referring to the current seasons, but back around the C9's time. Obviously Le Mans prototypes can't keep up with modern F1's; the former have become heavier and weaker than the early '90s cars, while F1s have become even faster. However...

The Peugeot 905 Evo 2 (the one that was not raced, just tested) was actually even faster (faster than a F1 of 1992 at certain tracks )

While the C9 may not have been as fast as the 905 Evo 2, it was still an insanely fast vehicle. So yes, the car seemed to drive more like an F1 car than a modern prototype... probably because it's closer to one .

 

[GTXLR]

Well guys, as a sportscar (and ring) anorak, sorry but doing a sub 5.m30 at the ring with a C9 is impossible. I'll tell you why:

- at the speed he's travelling at the flugplatz, the C9 would fly (like the clr ar LM'99) as it would catch air under it (flat bottom + tunnels);
- 300km/h at the double righthander after flugplatz? No way (it's just not realistic!!! You cannot go against the law of physics) going that fast at a medium (it's not a fast corner, just a medium corner!!!!);
- again, at that speed, he would just "fly" at schwedenkreuz because of the bump (again, air getting below the car);
- etecetera (i could go on with this the all lap).

This just shows that the physics are just not realistic, abs and tcs on or off (if you get a full ground effects car with air under it, no abs or traction control or whatever will save you!!!!!). It's a pitty having such a beatiful track ruined by so poor physics (realistic wise)...

👎 👎

Some times you guys really do expect too much.

You are correct the Physics engine isnt realistically modelling ground effects and gravity.
What it models is Car data into a realistic interpretation of realistic handling/power e.t.c. on a realistically recreated interpretation of the track.
Yes some consideration with regards to downforce is recreated, but this will just be an additional tweak to the grip levels, not full modelling of air flow just the same way as the weight and suspension data are handled.

With the driver Aids on in the game you can go as fast as is possible, even against the laws of newtons physics, and even against the effect of ground effect and push all the way up to the limits of the cars data, and this will be unrealistic represenation of the real world.

Without driver aids the physics engine would have you crashing or going off track and spinning out which helps recreate a truer level of what is capable, but they are still not modelled as in the real world but allow a much closer representation of the sort of speed & grip levels.

If you really expect to get full modelled real world physics, you are going to need something more than a humble PS2, Im sure no PC game could currently model what you expect.
Get a grip, get real, and just enjoy GT4.
Dont even expect GT5 on PS3 to fully recreate the laws of Physics, Im pretty sure that achievement and level of realism is many many years away.

 

[3rdgenracerX]

I wonder if anyone has hacked Flinx's replay yet? I "think" the MK editor would work with GT4 save file's and it would show if PD has the C9 in its stock "real life" format or if they gave it a set of supersoft tires and some added horse power. For all we know the later could be true, that would make a good reason as to why the C9 is that fast.

As for the 5'34 lap, it wasnt an easy lap to do. All of the unrealistic things he did during the lap did cost him time, I know from my GT4 demo experiance that going at the cars speed is very tough in many places and is ungodly easy to loose control even with TCS and ABS from the bumps on the track and when I did unnatural things like that I lost time and speed.
I have no doubt's that Flinx's lap was done in a more normal driving fashion where he kept 4 tires on the track and didnt kerb hop.

Yeah the physics system isnt real life, it'll be a while before that happen's on a console or PC. GT4 is much more accurate at representing real life like physics compared to GT3. Its not perfect, so what its good enough for now until the PS3 and GT5 with more improvements.
Still the most important thing to know is if PD has the C9 stock or not. That would make a world of a difference in this disscusion if we knew for sure.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Of interest; Samberto mentioned that while the 88C-V is listed as 800ps in the dealer, when it arrives in your garage it's over 900. I'm wondering if the the Sauber is the same situation.

Also, I doubt MK's editor will work with GT4. There's new variables for cars, such as nos and wings. Although if he does decide to do a new version for GT4, I'm hoping it doesn't require a complete from-scratch redo.

 

[[SS]Ares]

I suppose with driving a high-powered group C car around the high speed Nurburgring, the GT physics are stretched to their limit, and a bit beyond it has to be said. But still, I watch that video and it looks not too bad if you consider the main shortcomings are to do with bumps, dips and rises in the road surface. Have any other games attempted to simulate the Sauber C9 at the Nurburgring?

I found some laptimes of Project Gotham 2 on the nurburgring, people are doing 6.00 minutes in a TVR Speed 12....

 

[cobragt]

And Cobra, as per the usual; get past the fanboyism. It's entirely reasonable to assume PD's recreation of Green Hell isn't spot-on; they botched Laguna Seca in GT2/3, so to think they've got it right first time out on a track that's what, 8 times as big, is funny. Okay, maybe botched is an exaggeration; but it was not a foot-by-foot recreation. I highly doubt every bump and dip from the real track is present in the game. And there's ample proof that it was indeed a human driving. There is always someone out there faster than you

That's gt2 and 3, are we talking about 2 and 3? Gt4's nurb is the best recreation in any game, period. Judging from vids of cars on the nurb, PD got all the bumps and dips right. I remember seeing race cars in the 24 hour nurb race shaking on the kesseichen just like the falken gtr does ingame.

 

[cobragt]

👎 👎

Some times you guys really do expect too much.

You are correct the Physics engine isnt realistically modelling ground effects and gravity.
What it models is Car data into a realistic interpretation of realistic handling/power e.t.c. on a realistically recreated interpretation of the track.
Yes some consideration with regards to downforce is recreated, but this will just be an additional tweak to the grip levels, not full modelling of air flow just the same way as the weight and suspension data are handled.

With the driver Aids on in the game you can go as fast as is possible, even against the laws of newtons physics, and even against the effect of ground effect and push all the way up to the limits of the cars data, and this will be unrealistic represenation of the real world.

Without driver aids the physics engine would have you crashing or going off track and spinning out which helps recreate a truer level of what is capable, but they are still not modelled as in the real world but allow a much closer representation of the sort of speed & grip levels.

If you really expect to get full modelled real world physics, you are going to need something more than a humble PS2, Im sure no PC game could currently model what you expect.
Get a grip, get real, and just enjoy GT4.
Dont even expect GT5 on PS3 to fully recreate the laws of Physics, Im pretty sure that achievement and level of realism is many many years away.

exactly, you people expect way too much. And has anyone thought of wind resistance? Does anyone here honestly believe any racing game comes close to simulating wind resistance? There are so many factors of racing that's not feature in gt4 or anyother race game. Like fear; who in their right mind would push the C9 to its limits on a track such as nurb? PD did a great job with gt4 and saying the game doesn't have realistic physics is just retardation. and how many race games simulate aerodynamic involved crashes?

 

[Mister E]

excactly the reason why im only gonna drive roadcars on street tires on the N-ring

One of the dumber things I've heard in the thread.

"I'm not gonna get the S license, because that would involve me not obeying the laws of Newtonian physics, in a video game."

You guys are seriously stuck up if you can't enjoy a game just because it's slightly unrealistic.

I think from a gameplay persepective, having the game be a tiny bit unrealistic is an essential aspect. In a video game, I don't want to have to worry about flipping my car by going too fast down a straight. It's real, but is it fun?

I can't wait to do that license test, it will be incredibly fun.