Online moaners

[Stotty]

I have no idea what really happened, there may or may not have been a proper overlap. My gripe with OP - he didn't look at the map and apparently thinks he shouldn't have been looking at all. The fact is that there are plenty of situations where legitimate overlap will be there before being visible (w/o having the triple-monitor set-up).

Perhaps.

However, I've always adopted the following attitude... if I don't know the opponent and I'm attempting an overtake, I always expect to be punted. This means I only go for overtakes when I feel confident I can complete them 100% cleanly, and if the opponent does try to make contact they will come off worse.

I'd never go for a 50:50, and I'd think twice about even a 75% chance if I didn't think I was going to come out the other end in one piece.

Good drivers aren't only fast, they are able to see how a situation is going to develop and help themselves.

 

[NCRthree]

Fun thread this one! I'm one who won't change my line in a turn if I'm the slow car. Fast guy will have to wait for the passing opportunity when it's safe for both cars-simple. If we're racing tight, I'll do my best to hold you back UNLESS you've gotten beside me. Then I'll allow the pass. That's OLR as far as I understand it.

However if you keep poking your nose underneath me when a pass is doubtful, damned right I'll shut the door down. How do I know you might spin me out when I'm most vulnerable. It's racing right?

Impossible to tell what really happened from the OP's description and it obviously looked different from the other drivers perspective too. Was he closing really fast? Were you guys battling for position closely? Exactly how far beside you was he? Did the OP just drift up on purpose to shove off the competitor? Or really what the point of the thread is in the first place. Does the OP just hate whiners, uh I mean moaners!

 

[feverpitch82]

He got a slipstream up the hill, I went slightly defensive on the left hander he took a wide line and put his car to my left approaching the right hander but as we turned in he disappeared because I had the inside line. Right on the exit I tagged the front of his car and he spun.

And yeah great thread, glad I posted it!

 

[Johnnypenso]

That's why I don't go to public lobbies. Lotsa clueless people out there who have no idea that they are being dirty.

👍👍

 

[dhandeh]

I'm I the only one who sees the irony in the thread title?

Was going to say exactly the same thing!👍

 

[Stotty]

He got a slipstream up the hill, I went slightly defensive on the left hander he took a wide line and put his car to my left approaching the right hander but as we turned in he disappeared because I had the inside line. Right on the exit I tagged the front of his car and he spun.

And yeah great thread, glad I posted it!

Personally, unless it was a driver I'd raced before and trusted, I wouldn't have tried that overtake.

You should always assume the other driver hasn't seen you, and they won't unless you're at least fully alongside them.

 

[FormulaKimball]

He got a slipstream up the hill, I went slightly defensive on the left hander he took a wide line and put his car to my left approaching the right hander but as we turned in he disappeared because I had the inside line. Right on the exit I tagged the front of his car and he spun.

And yeah great thread, glad I posted it!

This would benefit from a replay video... but it sounds a little like the other car chose the wrong side to attack. Though I incorrectly assumed you were the overtaking car in the OP and was mostly replying under that notion. Nevertheless as Stotty said, I probably wouldn't try that side to overtake.

Sounds like what we're really discussing is a driver getting frustrated at a failed outside overtake and some defensive racing, and the moaning afterward (unsportsmanlike swearing at you). Makes me think of two incidents in F1 - Kimi vs. Kubica, and Trulli vs. Sutil. The funny thing really was the difference in how the guy trying a failed outside pass reacted - Trulli lost it and kept on it for days, while Kimi merely said he knew it would be difficult, "psssh... I tried", and dismissed it.

 

[feverpitch82]

Personally, unless it was a driver I'd raced before and trusted, I wouldn't have tried that overtake.

You should always assume the other driver hasn't seen you, and they won't unless you're at least fully alongside them.

I wouldn't try that either which is why it bugged me when he started calling me every name under the sun...bad decision which was always going to end in tears.

For him lol

 

[Spender1330]

Very interesting thread everyone. I am in the "dont see anything wrong with the OP holding his line" so it's getting kind of equal if anyone is keeping score?!

As long as when he exited the corner he didn't pull across in front of the other driver then I think he is okay and within the rules as I understand them.

I am having a hard time believing that racers on the inside line genuinely lift off when someone attempting an outside pass has their nose level with the back bumper. You lift off? Seriously? That seems pretty strange to me. As has been said before, if someone was further up 50:50 or more then they are a) dominating the corner b) in need of avoiding and I would lift. But nose by bumper?? Not so much.

Just an opinion. Think things have been a little heated in here. Stay cool people

 

[Johnnypenso]

Very interesting thread everyone. I am in the "dont see anything wrong with the OP holding his line" so it's getting kind of equal if anyone is keeping score?!

As long as when he exited the corner he didn't pull across in front of the other driver then I think he is okay and within the rules as I understand them.

I am having a hard time believing that racers on the inside line genuinely lift off when someone attempting an outside pass has their nose level with the back bumper. You lift off? Seriously? That seems pretty strange to me. As has been said before, if someone was further up 50:50 or more then they are a) dominating the corner b) in need of avoiding and I would lift. But nose by bumper?? Not so much.

Just an opinion. Think things have been a little heated in here. Stay cool people

Maybe you have different rules than the rest of us, but outside of smash up derbies, I don't think any kind of racing makes it "within the rules" to run someone off the track. If the lead driver got a little loose and the following driver tried to capitalize on the mistake on the outside he had a legit reason to be there. If he had no overlap at the turn in point and just stuck his nose in there at the exit point then no the following driver had no right to be there, under GTP OLR's. But either way, it's never justified to fun someone off the track under normal racing conditions in any organized racing I know of.

From a personal standpoint, I haven't met the driver yet who could gain any ground on me on the outside at the exit of a corner, if I had the racing line to myself throughout the corner, unless I made a mistake. Physics and GT5 programming dictate the maximum grip is on the dark stuff and thus max speed through the corner is there as well if you have the skill to retain your momentum. You'd have to be awfully slow on the racing line to allow someone to gain enough momentum on you out in the marbles to even get a bumper up on you.

 

[Spender1330]

Sorry Johnny, I must not have worded what I said clearly. I was trying to say that if I OP has the inside corner and the car behind is barely level - I think nose to bumper was mentioned somewhere - then sticking to the racing line is NOT running someone off track unless the OP cuts out intentionally to do so.

Apologies.

 

[Spender1330]

Sorry Johnny, I must not have worded what I said clearly. I was trying to say that if I OP has the inside corner and the car behind is barely level - I think nose to bumper was mentioned somewhere - then sticking to the racing line is NOT running someone off track unless the OP cuts out intentionally to do so.

Apologies.

So if
"From a personal standpoint, I haven't met the driver yet who could gain any ground on me on the outside at the exit of a corner, if I had the racing line to myself throughout the corner, unless I made a mistake."
are you saying you would or wouldn't lift off if someone DID get their nose level with your back tyre? This looks like you wouldn't is all

 

[GODfreyGT5]

So if
"From a personal standpoint, I haven't met the driver yet who could gain any ground on me on the outside at the exit of a corner, if I had the racing line to myself throughout the corner, unless I made a mistake."
are you saying you would or wouldn't lift off if someone DID get their nose level with your back tyre? This looks like you wouldn't is all

(how many times am I going to have to say this)

By the sounds of it the OP WAS going slowly or screwed up on the inside line and the other driver got a faster run out. How else would a driver who's bumper was 'along side' the OP's then lead to being able to be hit off? If he really was at such a small overlap he would have for sure just let off the throttle to avoid the collision.

This REALLY needs a video if the OP has the replay saved, there's not much else we can say. But it sounds like the OP ran to the outer line when he should have been more cautious.

Just a note, we already know the OP wasn't looking out for him, he said in his description!!! So how does the OP apparently now know that the follower's 'bumper was in-line' with the rear of the OP's car, he could have been anywhere!!!

 

[Johnnypenso]

Sorry Johnny, I must not have worded what I said clearly. I was trying to say that if I OP has the inside corner and the car behind is barely level - I think nose to bumper was mentioned somewhere - then sticking to the racing line is NOT running someone off track unless the OP cuts out intentionally to do so.

Apologies.

Thanks for the clarification, but the point still stands. You are supposed to be aware of what's happening around you at all times. When you slide out to the outside of a corner at exit you do so intentionally. You also intentionally don't look to see if someone is there. That doesn't mean that person has the right to be there, but if they do end up there somehow you have to leave them room to race, and fight it out later with a protest, in an organized series anyway. If this is an open lobby there are no rules so it's a moot point.

So if
"From a personal standpoint, I haven't met the driver yet who could gain any ground on me on the outside at the exit of a corner, if I had the racing line to myself throughout the corner, unless I made a mistake."
are you saying you would or wouldn't lift off if someone DID get their nose level with your back tyre? This looks like you wouldn't is all

I race 99% in leagues/series/clubs that use the GTP OLR. So when I race, the only time someone would appear ahead of my bumper exiting a corner is if we entered the corner side by side and I left him room to be there, or I made a mistake in the corner that warranted a passing attempt inside or outside, wherever I happened to leave room. In the first case I'd know he was there and leave room and in the second case, with the guys I usually race with, I know if someone is on my bumper and I make even a small mistake, they are going to try and capitalize, so the second I got a little squirrely, I'd look up to my mini-map for a split second and see what's happening behind me.

But because I race with guys that respect the OLR, I already know that if I enter the corner ahead of them or vice versa, they are going to allow me the racing line without interference, barring an error warranting a challenge mid-corner. It works beautifully if we all follow the same standards and respect each other on the track. A cowboy mentality that some people have of trying to justify why they punted someone off the track or weren't looking and shoved someone into the gravel, is what ruined the whole Open Lobby system from the beginning and made it such crappy racing.

 

[Morgoth_666]

Some posts just keep growing and growing and then get cut and then grow some more. Sorry. Read it or ignore it as you wish.

[snip]

This REALLY needs a video if the OP has the replay saved, there's not much else we can say. But it sounds like the OP ran to the outer line when he should have been more cautious.

Just a note, we already know the OP wasn't looking out for him, he said in his description!!! So how does the OP apparently now know that the follower's 'bumper was in-line' with the rear of the OP's car, he could have been anywhere!!!

I think this mostly sums up what has kicked up the amusing discussion in this thread. The OP was not very clear initially about exactly what happened, and has clarified things a few times without managing to make it much more clear. So a lot of people have been reacting to and in some cases arguing about an incident which exists only in all of our various imaginations.

I was all set to jump to conclusions this morning about what happened in my imagination before realizing that that wasn't the actual incident. Without knowing the exact specifics of who was where and when it's tough to make any real determination. It could well be that the overtaking car was never alongside by more than a couple of inches and had no business staying there. It could also be that the overtaking car was substantially alongside going through the corner and thought it was still a side-by-side fight(even if a losing one) and the defender decided he somehow owned the road and ran the overtaker off. It could also be that the overtaker was ready to abandon the move but saw what appeared to be a substantial mistake and decided to try to capitalize on it.

A lot of the discussion probably was kicked off by the statement that the OP didn't see the other car out of his windshield/forward view, and apparently doesn't feel that other drivers deserve the respect of using [GT5's unreliable] mirrors or using the buttons to look sideways/rearward or having the minimap enabled so as to help avoid running into them. The statement that the OP owned the racing line also suggests a certain attitude. The OP has since claimed that they hit rear bumper to front bumper but since he apparently wasn't aware of where the overtaker was it's tough to make that claim.



To actually give an opinion on the theory of all this:

I do tend to believe that in most cases it is always your responsibility to be aware of where a car you are racing with is. Just because you don't expect someone to be there doesn't mean you have the right to not pay any attention. People don't have the right to try to make last second moves resulting in only a tiny overlap(the "one wheel is not enough" thing) and expect the lead car to know about it and sacrifice tons of speed in a last second attempt at avoiding contact. In those cases the following car has a much better view of where each car is and so the burden of avoidance falls with them. Even with adequate visiblity and alertness, it's very difficult to know that someone has just pulled six inches alongside you. But if there IS a fight with some proper side-by-side racing, the racing isn't over just because one driver thinks he's won it, even if he does have the advantage(even a substantial advantage) for the moment. I think this is generally what I've seen in real-world racing, though the specific rules vary.

You also have to assume that the other driver in an informal online race is not going to exercise the same discretion as a driver who's livelihood and even life depends on knowing when to give up on a battle. If they're alongside you, they're alongside you until they aren't -- not until you think they should give up. If you go into a corner side-by-side, you should expect to stay on a side-by-side line all the way through the corner or until you have actually pulled fully in front or fully behind. The contest is not decided if one car is a bit ahead at the apex. You can make things difficult for them, but you still must leave them enough room to stay on the road.

The overtaking driver probably overreacted in this incident, whether "racing incident" or fault one way or the other. But racing drivers do tend to be rather emotional after incidents. Gamers are not exactly renowned for their extreme levels of maturity and calm either.

 

[goofycool]

@morgoth - fantastic, calm and poignant.

 

[GODfreyGT5]

Some posts just keep growing and growing and then get cut and then grow some more. Sorry. Read it or ignore it as you wish.





I think this mostly sums up what has kicked up the amusing discussion in this thread. The OP was not very clear initially about exactly what happened, and has clarified things a few times without managing to make it much more clear. So a lot of people have been reacting to and in some cases arguing about an incident which exists only in all of our various imaginations.

I was all set to jump to conclusions this morning about what happened in my imagination before realizing that that wasn't the actual incident. Without knowing the exact specifics of who was where and when it's tough to make any real determination. It could well be that the overtaking car was never alongside by more than a couple of inches and had no business staying there. It could also be that the overtaking car was substantially alongside going through the corner and thought it was still a side-by-side fight(even if a losing one) and the defender decided he somehow owned the road and ran the overtaker off. It could also be that the overtaker was ready to abandon the move but saw what appeared to be a substantial mistake and decided to try to capitalize on it.

A lot of the discussion probably was kicked off by the statement that the OP didn't see the other car out of his windshield/forward view, and apparently doesn't feel that other drivers deserve the respect of using [GT5's unreliable] mirrors or using the buttons to look sideways/rearward or having the minimap enabled so as to help avoid running into them. The statement that the OP owned the racing line also suggests a certain attitude. The OP has since claimed that they hit rear bumper to front bumper but since he apparently wasn't aware of where the overtaker was it's tough to make that claim.



To actually give an opinion on the theory of all this:

I do tend to believe that in most cases it is always your responsibility to be aware of where a car you are racing with is. Just because you don't expect someone to be there doesn't mean you have the right to not pay any attention. People don't have the right to try to make last second moves resulting in only a tiny overlap(the "one wheel is not enough" thing) and expect the lead car to know about it and sacrifice tons of speed in a last second attempt at avoiding contact. In those cases the following car has a much better view of where each car is and so the burden of avoidance falls with them. Even with adequate visiblity and alertness, it's very difficult to know that someone has just pulled six inches alongside you. But if there IS a fight with some proper side-by-side racing, the racing isn't over just because one driver thinks he's won it, even if he does have the advantage(even a substantial advantage) for the moment. I think this is generally what I've seen in real-world racing, though the specific rules vary.

You also have to assume that the other driver in an informal online race is not going to exercise the same discretion as a driver who's livelihood and even life depends on knowing when to give up on a battle. If they're alongside you, they're alongside you until they aren't -- not until you think they should give up. If you go into a corner side-by-side, you should expect to stay on a side-by-side line all the way through the corner or until you have actually pulled fully in front or fully behind. The contest is not decided if one car is a bit ahead at the apex. You can make things difficult for them, but you still must leave them enough room to stay on the road.

The overtaking driver probably overreacted in this incident, whether "racing incident" or fault one way or the other. But racing drivers do tend to be rather emotional after incidents. Gamers are not exactly renowned for their extreme levels of maturity and calm either.

This, this and this

End of thread, OP please read this and listen to it carefully.

 

[GTP_Gearhead]

Assuming it looked like this? Hard to say without seeing a video or pictures. Watch the Sun Trust car at the 40 second mark. Pretty sure he received a penalty from race control for that move. Someone correct me if i am wrong about the penalty.

I remember this race, he did get flagged.
Max drives way to aggresive, and he continues with his personality off track. Easily one of the most arrogant racers I've ever had a chance to say hello to.
I guess "Max the Ax" applies to this guy, I hope his career is short lived.

Back on topic, I feel you should have lifted.

There's no reason to muscle other drivers around, keep it up and you'll be branded like Max. Keep in mind, while GT5 is big, it's not like Call of Duty...

We are a tight knit community, and your reputation out on track matters.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

I think the op’s description is pretty clear.

Personally I would probably “hold my line” right into his back bumper if I caught back up to him.

 

[GTP_Gearhead]

Exactly,
Hold your line To The Right and avoid contact.

 

[Spender1330]

Am confused, this:

But because I race with guys that respect the OLR, I already know that if I enter the corner ahead of them or vice versa, they are going to allow me the racing line without interference, barring an error warranting a challenge mid-corner

DOES sound like the onus is on the car behind not to push the manoeuvre. Car in front, has the racing line, other car should allow this?!

 

[feverpitch82]

(how many times am I going to have to say this)

By the sounds of it the OP WAS going slowly or screwed up on the inside line and the other driver got a faster run out. How else would a driver who's bumper was 'along side' the OP's then lead to being able to be hit off? If he really was at such a small overlap he would have for sure just let off the throttle to avoid the collision.

This REALLY needs a video if the OP has the replay saved, there's not much else we can say. But it sounds like the OP ran to the outer line when he should have been more cautious.

Just a note, we already know the OP wasn't looking out for him, he said in his description!!! So how does the OP apparently now know that the follower's 'bumper was in-line' with the rear of the OP's car, he could have been anywhere!!!

Hmm I think you should read my descriptions again. I think for some reason you have just decided you dont like me very much and you will argue anything just to be right about the situation, that someone rightly pointed out only exists in your head. I am experienced enough to know what was going on and fast enough to know I wasnt slow into the corner.

Remember he got alongside me before the corner because I went defensive into the left hander before warsteiner kurve because he slip streamed me up the hill. But as I had the speed and the inside line for warsteiner, his car disappeared on my left as we turned in thats why I said I had the corner. He wasnt trying an undercut he ran around the outside but this proves that I wasnt slow. If he was going fast enough, he would of stayed visable to my left and I would of given him room as the pass was going to stick.

It was a move that was never going to work and my gripe was his tantrum when he lost out.

I also know the contact was very slight because we only clipped right at the exit point ( maybe the last 10 - 15% of the turn ), so maybe at the last minute he tried to escape but it was too late. Checking a map wasnt going to help.

And im definitely done here, some people agree, some people dont. I sure as hell wont be posting anything of this nature again 👍

 

[amar212]

And im definitely done here, some people agree, some people dont. I sure as hell wont be posting anything of this nature again 👍

And remember how you ask this thread to close? It was a good discussion after all. Hope everyone will learn something out of it.

 

[Vegard]

I would never do what the OP describes regardless of the fact that it might be his right to do so (I'm not saying that it is.)
Racing with low-grip tyres, that sort of move could see me going off into the gravel myself.

I tend to avoid contact at any cost.
Does that mean I like being bullied around? No.
Does that mean I don't protect my space? No.

It means I put non-contact racing above winning, always.

There is nothing more satisfying to do in a car than having a clean, fair, and friendly battle with other players.
Even if that means going two or three wide and loosing ground to the drivers out front, or getting the people behind a bit closer.

Be respectful of other drivers, regardless of their bad manners.
Let the host deal with the dirty drivers.
If he doesn't, change lobby.

PS: I just though of something more satisfying to do in a car, but it does not include driving, and it has nothing to do with GT5 so I'll leave it to your imagination.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Am confused, this:

But because I race with guys that respect the OLR, I already know that if I enter the corner ahead of them or vice versa, they are going to allow me the racing line without interference, barring an error warranting a challenge mid-corner

DOES sound like the onus is on the car behind not to push the manoeuvre. Car in front, has the racing line, other car should allow this?!

From the GTP OLR:

You must establish substantial overlap with the car ahead before they reach the corner’s turn-in point to have the right to drive up their inside, or to expect them to leave inside room for you. At least the front of your car should be up to the driver’s position in the ahead car. The ahead driver has the right to be fully committed to the racing line of their choice without any interference if there was no substantial overlap before he turned in.

I read that as saying that once it's established I'm ahead entering the corner, and you don't have overlap, I can take my own racing line around the corner without you sticking your nose in a foot or two in front of my rear bumper causing me to have to adjust to you being there. So what happens if I'm ahead and I make a mistake, or I'm really slow which I'd consider a mistake. This happens:

If an ahead driver has clearly made an error to warrant a passing move, a behind driver may attack their position, with due caution and care, regardless of whether there was any pre-existing overlap. However, the overtaking driver must still avoid contact. Small errors by the ahead driver may not justify a passing move. The ahead driver getting a bit out of shape at times doesn’t give you an automatic right to pass. You still have to judge if their error allows for a safe pass to take place.

Subject to interpretation but experienced drivers know what errors warrant a passing attempt and which ones don't. Most experienced drivers don't make errors of this kind to begin with, but if they do you can attack so long as you don't make contact. So if you do make a mistake, you should watch the mini-map, your mirrors or your tool of choice and see what's happening around you to determine if someone is attacking. Once you make that mistake and allow someone to gain on you in the corner, you have to then leave room for them to complete the corner, on the inside or the outside and you can't squeeze them off the track.

So what if you didn't make an error, had the clear right to the racing line and someone still sticks their nose in somewhere around the corner and you have to make an allowance for them to avoid contact? Well you still can't run them off the road, you have to be aware at all times of who is where in relation to you, but you would then have to go to the stewards and file a protest. In most series I've run with the OLR, guys already know ahead of time that would be an illegal maneuvre and they wouldn't put their nose in there so it's not usually an issue, but if they do and it impacts your race, you file a protest. That's what stewards are for

 

[Toyzri]

if you can not complete the pass clean before the next apex then abort the attempt and try again. Racing is based on control and agility not aggression.

 

[Johnnypenso]

if you can not complete the pass clean before the next apex then abort the attempt and try again. Racing is based on control and agility not aggression.

Far, far too vague to be of any value. Everyone has different definitions of "clean".

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Wow, can't believe this little debate is still going on, lol. The OP seems to have really started a firestorm here. Let it go guys, lifes to short to keep this up, lol. Sorry, just trying to bring alittle humor into this great debate.

 

[Toyzri]

Far, far too vague to be of any value. Everyone has different definitions of "clean".

Then you should not be considering your self a racer.

 

[SAFFY]

We all hate dirty drivers who bash you off the track - thats a given. But I also cant stand PEOPLE who put themselves in stupid positions then cry when they spin off.

I can relate to this.
I was once upon a time racing in Suzuka where I was coming out of turn 5 and I have a dude on the inside (of turn 5), which was perfectly fine because there was enough space for both of us. When we approached turn 6 (right hander), a guy pushes himself on the inside of 6 by hitting me, but having someone on the outside of turn 6, I had to leave room for him. I wasn't expecting another dude to appear from no where and claim the inside of turn 6. I only saw him a fraction before I turned right, which mean't I hit him off the track, because it was almost impossible to react to his move.

When the race ended it happened to be that the guy who got hit by me was actually the room host, and so I got kicked, because of my dirty driving. Yeah right! 2 racers into one corner can be difficult let alone 3 into one, that's just asking for trouble.

Online racers are generally aggressive and sometimes have no clue what their doing, whenever they see a little gap they pounce on it not thinking about if others will make the corner or not which can be rather frustrating.