Open Differential Drifting

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The__Ghost__Z
I often hear about people stating that a limited slip differential is necessary to drift. I disagree with this, and furthermore, I believe that welding a differential (or essentially a locked differential) is one of the least useful things you can do to a car to try and improve its drifting technique.

Since I believe that a good drift car is also a good race car, that can be used to drift, driver skill seems to factor in far more than technical specifics of a car. However, when those meet is when a driver approaches the limits of possibility with their vehicle.

I want to gauge other people's responses to using an open differential (0/0/0) vs (5/5/5) vs (60/5/60) vs (60/60/60) and how it affects their driving. I find that Gran Turismo's differential settings are one of their worst tuning aspects (along with not being able to specify cam sizes/rates and wheel/tire sections and diameters) and it could benefit it if we got some good discussion on the differential as a whole and how to best select one for drifting.
 
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How is open diff good? Welded keeps the wheels spinning at the same time. Open you most likely to have just one wheel spinning and the other just crawling round. Most likely not able to drift or hardly any with that setup. Drift car isn't the same as a race car. Racing meant to be the quickest round the track, that's why they have little lock to lock. Drifting on the other hand, people set lock to lock a lot further to get more angle. No doubt someone can go more technical than me with this sort of stuff.

As for GT5 Setups i agree. They are not as in-depth as other simulations games. Hoping they fix this more for GT6.
 
What on earth did i just read?

Open diff allows the power to be transfered to the wheel with the least grip which of course, will make it more difficult to lose grip. I'm not going in depth because that post is ridiculous!

For those who don't know, Locked diff has a constant delivery between both wheels.

As for technical specs not making a difference in the car compared to skill, just get out of here!

A good car can make a good driver. And yes, a good driver can make a good car. But it still needs be up to spec to perform no matter who drives.
 
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Plenty of race cars use a locked differential. Not only is it consistant, it doesnt wear out like a clutched diff will. A lot of formula d cars use a spool in the diff.
 
Plenty of race cars use a locked differential. Not only is it consistant, it doesnt wear out like a clutched diff will. A lot of formula d cars use a spool in the diff.

I think that (wear and reliability) is an important factor to consider. I see your point. I imagine that a spool differential is the most dramatic to drift with, and contributes greatly to the eruptions of smoke and consistency of traction (or lack thereof) in a D1 car. While I don't think it serves the purposes here, it can be useful to achieve the effects seen in D1 easier, especially when they drift in low roll scenarios where this technique would not work. (I explain more on that later on in the post)

I think the merit in an Open diff lies in the proportion, instantaneously, of torque being spent on the lower-traction (inside) tire VS the outside. In an open differential car, upon corner entry applied throttle causes the outside to push the entire car into oversteer much easier as the inside wheel does not create understeer from also having significant power. During this phase, the difference is significant because of the roll of the car forward during braking. A locked differential would not gain that benefit. The rear inside wheel, as it loses traction from the rotation of the car during oversteer, loses traction as well during low grip scenarios, so that when the outside wheel is overwhelmed with power, the inside wheel is as well, though to a lesser extent than a locked differential. This, coupled with the fact that an open differential does not mean that the inside wheel gets no power (in fact, it gets plenty) but rather gets power based on the roll of a car and how much weight is on that particular tire, makes it especially useful for low grip drifting, such as using Comfort Hard tires like many cars do.

As a result, to reap the speedy entry benefits of an open differential, it requires:

1. Low weight transfer (from a low center of mass, low eight, low tire G rating and narrow wheelbase)
2. Consistent and even torque curve.

This prefers lower power cars, as a curve that peaks at 276 ft/lbs but has a minimum of only 20-30 ft/lbs less over a 3000 rpm band is going to be a greater advantage than a car which has a torque peak that is higher, but with proportionally lower minimums. To narrow the percentage of minimum/maximum torque, the band has to be lowered, which requires an even higher amount of torque to arrive at the rear wheels. Eventually, the added power is either a detriment to throttle control, or cannot be achieved without the use of parts that ruin the shape of the curve.

To put it simply, in an open differential you are not giving an even distribution of power to the rear wheels, obviously. But to drift optimally, you do not want an even distribution of power to the rear wheels. I find that cornering speeds are an average of 2-3 mph higher, grip is improved, and throttle modulation response is widened (making the car easier to drive, as a wider input on the throttle mid-corner has a smoother impact on angle/speed) at the same angle. This is easy to understand since some of the power is being bled off, you can determine the instantaneous right/left split of torque in the rear wheels by how you use the throttle and roll of the car. So long as car's weight transfer does not cause the difference to become so great as to lift a wheel, it is an all-around improvement in speed and handling.

To summarize, the intention is to use the weight transfer of the car, along with the throttle response, to determine a more beneficial left-right ratio, different for each corner, for a variety of drifts, rather than rely on a constant split as determined by an LSD to be applied to all corners.

I do, however, see where this technique would fail. Using an open differential in a car that produces significant inside lift forces (My 240ZG does not, the unsprung weight is considerably more than the small lift forces on the inside wheels during cornering) might show how this technique is probably less useful in those scenarios.



On an ending note, I would not make this thread if using a locked differential was so universally better than an open differential that the reasons to explain why took only a sentence. I only made this thread after a few weeks of my own testing between the two and wanted to expand what I found to other drifters to experiment with.
 
What? Hardly understood any of that. I actually know people who drift for real and they all say locked is better. You have to learn how to control the car. Open doesn't do any good for drifting. I've seen a open diff and it was failing it pretty bad, one wheel spinning and the drift wouldn't last no where near as long as welded. It stupid to think that's how drifting should be. For real thing, it doesn't work well.

Instead of welded. There is other diffs people use. (Don't no if these are exact)
1-way tightens under acceleration
1.5-way tightens fully under acceleration and 50% on deceleration
2-way tightens equally on acceleration and deceleration.

I've seen a video of AE86 with a 2-way LSD and it handled it pretty well. But i think most prefer 1.5-way LSD as it's better for road use. You got to have some money to do this though. Hardly cheap.

Your confusing the whole thing mate. People use welded because it actually works. People wouldn't be using if it didn't would they?
 
Please name a few real life race/drift cars that use a open differential and are competitive. I can't think of any..
 
1 way or 1.5 way are quite bad for a road as the car unsettles when not under throttle , 2 way is the best of both worlds and allows for a tame road car that can drift well ;)
 
1 way or 1.5 way are quite bad for a road as the car unsettles when not under throttle , 2 way is the best of both worlds and allows for a tame road car that can drift well ;)

Maybe, I don't no man. Im just going by the people that use them since they might know ahha. :D

1.5-way is like 75% locked, roughly


Edit: Just looked it up and nah. 1 and 1.5-way is better than 2-way because soon as you lift on the throttle the diff unlocks to become a open diff. :)

Either way good to learn for my mechanics stuff. lol.
 
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I just remember reading about Phil Morrisons v10 m3 and him commenting on how if he lifted off it killed him , that had a 1.5 way.
 
This is something I don't get on here and in real life.

People say use 60/60/60 on the lsd because its better but I hate how it makes my car drift. To stiff, 5/5/5 my car drifts loose and transition fast and has never failed me on any tandem.

In real life I think I had a welded differential. I was starting to get used to counter steering just gassing my car at the end it felt like I didn't have enough power. Then this guy said I need a open differential (some people told me on here I needed one)

It's all confusing >_<
 
You want it so the car can lock the diff easily under power and stay locked , you want the deceleration to be less locking than the acceleration so you dot under steer when initiating :)
 
This is something I don't get on here and in real life.

People say use 60/60/60 on the lsd because its better but I hate how it makes my car drift. To stiff, 5/5/5 my car drifts loose and transition fast and has never failed me on any tandem.

In real life I think I had a welded differential. I was starting to get used to counter steering just gassing my car at the end it felt like I didn't have enough power. Then this guy said I need a open differential (some people told me on here I needed one)

It's all confusing >_<
I'm not sure if it works for everybody, but I always start with 35/60/20, the 20 only because I don't care about braking.
When the car spins out, I change to 40/60/20, when it isn't loose enough I change to 30/60/20.

@all others:
When using an AWD car, how do you set up the LSD at the front?
I use 5/5/5 because it is closest to RWD cars, but is it really the best way to do it?
 
Ohhhhhh right , isn't it better to have a controllable predictable car when entering a drift though ?

I don't no the answer to that question. Although 1.5-way is locked one way and half the other. To be honest if they just having it for drifting only then go 2-way, welded or spool.

You want it so the car can lock the diff easily under power and stay locked , you want the deceleration to be less locking than the acceleration so you dot under steer when initiating :)

Yeah that's why it's maybe ideal to have 1.5-way diff because it's only locking 50% of the deceleration where as 2-way locks fully both ways. Woah getting confusing now. Ahha.


i dont no anymore! Hahaha. I'm going around in circles.
 
JrDarknes
This is something I don't get on here and in real life.

People say use 60/60/60 on the lsd because its better but I hate how it makes my car drift. To stiff, 5/5/5 my car drifts loose and transition fast and has never failed me on any tandem.

In real life I think I had a welded differential. I was starting to get used to counter steering just gassing my car at the end it felt like I didn't have enough power. Then this guy said I need a open differential (some people told me on here I needed one)

It's all confusing >_<

I actually drift, and I prefer a locked differential over an open any day of the week. I am more consistent because I know the rear wheels are always going to be locked. I have drifted cars with open differentials and very worn out lsds that act pretty much just like an open differential. Transitions feel horrible and I get less angle and control.
With an open if you have full power applied and the differential is spinning both wheels, then all of a sudden it puts all or most power to the inside wheel you lose angle and control. This could mean if your drifting a right hand corner when this happens (steering wheel to the left) and your rear decide it wants to put power to the inside then your going to get unexpected grip. If there's a wall or another car next to you then you WILL go into it.
No offense but you have a bunch of crazy logic going on. What does it matter if your corner speed is better? On track you add positive toe to the rear and it will give you better speed because the tires are wanting to grip and go forward. You don't reduce your differentials locking % just so your tires will lock/unlock and give you speed from one wheel not spinning faster than you are traveling.
You steer the car with the rear tires aka the throttle. When I drift I try to keep the steering wheel as close to full lock as I can and this gives me the most angle and speed available. But that technique is not something just anyone can do.
JR this was not all directed at you just so you know.
 
I thought i was explaining different types of lsd's. I don't no what works in real life or what doesn't. I don't have the budget to find that out either. I'm using the information there is.

I can see some of that was aimed at me. I don't give a damn about cornering speed.
Street is different to track so because have to bare in mind that it's there daily car they have to put up with a welder. Or go for a LSD. Some say 1.5-way is better others use 2-way.
 


Watch from 41:xx to 53:xx, Tsuchiya-san explain of how to practice for drift and how LSD is fundamental to drifting :) Even with viscous LSD doing 360 ain't pretty sight :lol:
 
Why do you all think this game is real Life..... I have a RZ Supra with a standard diff which drifts Great and my daily driver.... chaser runs a 30 35 22 diff :-)
 
Why do you all think this game is real Life..... I have a RZ Supra with a standard diff which drifts Great and my daily driver.... chaser runs a 30 35 22 diff :-)

I don't think that, but i would appreciate it if people took it a tad more seriously.

For example, those diff settings are horrible. Why do you think drifting basics don't apply to you? You're too good for them?
 
I personally use 5/5/5 on my LSD. I am very smooth. I start to get twitchy when i go higher. I have used the stock differentials on say classic muscle cars that have 0/0/0 and i am even smoother. It is all about driving style though
 
mcgloney
I thought i was explaining different types of lsd's. I don't no what works in real life or what doesn't. I don't have the budget to find that out either. I'm using the information there is.

I can see some of that was aimed at me. I don't give a damn about cornering speed.
Street is different to track so because have to bare in mind that it's there daily car they have to put up with a welder. Or go for a LSD. Some say 1.5-way is better others use 2-way.

Nothing I said was really aimed at you. It was mostly in response to ghostz.
 
Can you drift old muscle with 0/0/0 stock LSD value ? I know that they will often spin one side of the wheel due to open diff, leaving single tire black mark when provoked with pedal to the floor :)
 
Can you drift old muscle with 0/0/0 stock LSD value ? I know that they will often spin one side of the wheel due to open diff, leaving single tire black mark when provoked with pedal to the floor :)

You can't go below 5 5 5 if im correct. I always use 5 60 60, no matter the car, no matter the power :D
 
You can't go below 5 5 5 if im correct. I always use 5 60 60, no matter the car, no matter the power :D

I mean for American muscle from the 60's to 70's or any other RWD cars from the same era, some of them have 0/0/0 LSD value - open diff ( stock ). can they be drifted well with no LSD upgrade ? If what the OP says true, then someone would be able to drift them with no LSD upgrade, right ?
 
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