ORCA Silvia Spec Cup - SEASON COMPLETE, CARRACERPTP SUPREME ORCA CHAMP

[BrandonW77]

Marcus, if you're referring to my situation I don't think anything really downloaded. It got to 1% a couple times but never accomplished anything.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

I do not know then. I am not very handy with computers.

 

[BrandonW77]

I think either the servers or my local cable node must just be clogged, since everything else is working fine though it really points towards PD's servers. I'll try again in the morning, and again at lunch if necessary.

 

[carracerptp]

After a short bit testing 2.08, I think that the in-room draft is going to be a pain, and the cars have more low speed grip. High speed grip feels the same.
Also, was it just me (most likely) or has the tire sound been improved?

 

[dsgerbc]

Quick recap of tonight's session:
-Draft on 'weak' is back to weak
-Resetting 'collision' zaps everyone off the track. Times reset to nice --.--s once people re-enter the track and after that the grid is wrong.
-The car is different. That is Fuji is now somewhat drive-able. It's still off-camber on almost every single corner, the car still understeers, but not dreadfully so, just regular-badly.

So, either we qualify with draft and start the race, or qualify w/o draft and stage manually.

 

[OwensRacing]

After a short bit testing 2.08, I think that the in-room draft is going to be a pain, and the cars have more low speed grip. High speed grip feels the same.
Also, was it just me (most likely) or has the tire sound been improved?

Sound has improved. More progressive with grip loss.

 

[BrandonW77]

Quick recap of tonight's session:
-Draft on 'weak' is back to weak
-Resetting 'collision' zaps everyone off the track. Times reset to nice --.--s once people re-enter the track and after that the grid is wrong.
-The car is different. That is Fuji is now somewhat drive-able. It's still off-camber on almost every single corner, the car still understeers, but not dreadfully so, just regular-badly.

So, either we qualify with draft and start the race, or qualify w/o draft and stage manually.

RE: point 1, is the "weak" setting actually weaker now like it was when they first introduced the option (and then promptly broke with the next update)? If so, that is very good news.

RE: point 2, anything that changes the condition under which the track operates (i.e. damage, draft, collisions) will knock everyone off the track. At the same time it corrupts the timing monitor which will no longer record anyone's times. This is the one major thing that I think causes people to say "qualifying doesn't work". The only remedy is to do a full track reset (switch to a different track , switch back to desired track).

RE: point 3, that is also good news. The Silvia handles well at a lot of tracks but at some it was just an understeering beast, to the point racing would not be enjoyable.

Now for some good news: My update(s) worked fine this morning, all three were downloaded and installed in ~10 minutes. So I will be up and running this evening and would like to get some people together to do some testing, starting around 7pm EDT as usual.

I'm really torn about the draft in free-run/qualifying issue. There are lots of sides to this, benefits to running with and without it, so far I have not been able to come up with many options but I do have one option that will work fine: draft off in qualifying, when finished I will go back to change the settings and we will do a manual grid line up. Since I will be in the lounge I can check the timing monitor and get an accurate starting grid. I'm not happy about that, but so far I see it as the only real option that will keep the majority happy.

To be honest, in my own opinion I like the idea of the draft during qualifying. Overall I don't think it would have a really major effect but it would give the mid-pack guys a chance to qualify closer to the front from time to time and perhaps inject some more variety into our races. The fast guys would still be at the front, but they might have a TrackBound or a NCemtB amongst them to make things interesting. This would likely be sorted out in a lap or two and everyone would be back to their proper pack position. I'm sure Carr is getting a bit tired of running up front all alone.

But that's just my opinion and I rarely impose my own opinion into the series so don't be too concerned, just voicing my thoughts. But keep in mind that we're making a big stink about something that has not yet been proven to have any real effect on our qualifying/racing. It will likely have some effect, could be more or could be less than we anticipate, but I won't be making any real decisions until lots of testing has been done and I know for sure just what the effect(s) will be. Whatever I decide it will be based on the interests of the group as a whole. 👍

 

[Naptown25rs]

I'm really torn about the draft in free-run/qualifying issue. There are lots of sides to this, benefits to running with and without it, so far I have not been able to come up with many options but I do have one option that will work fine: draft off in qualifying, when finished I will go back to change the settings and we will do a manual grid line up. Since I will be in the lounge I can check the timing monitor and get an accurate starting grid. I'm not happy about that, but so far I see it as the only real option that will keep the majority happy.

To be honest, in my own opinion I like the idea of the draft during qualifying. Overall I don't think it would have a really major effect but it would give the mid-pack guys a chance to qualify closer to the front from time to time and perhaps inject some more variety into our races. The fast guys would still be at the front, but they might have a TrackBound or a NCemtB amongst them to make things interesting. This would likely be sorted out in a lap or two and everyone would be back to their proper pack position. I'm sure Carr is getting a bit tired of running up front all alone.

But that's just my opinion and I rarely impose my own opinion into the series so don't be too concerned, just voicing my thoughts. But keep in mind that we're making a big stink about something that has not yet been proven to have any real effect on our qualifying/racing. It will likely have some effect, could be more or could be less than we anticipate, but I won't be making any real decisions until lots of testing has been done and I know for sure just what the effect(s) will be. Whatever I decide it will be based on the interests of the group as a whole. 👍

I have to say that I am rather happy to see the draft now present in free run... For a lesser skilled/experienced guy like me, having the opportunity to get familiar with the draft during free run will save a lot of headache and anxiety when I'm no longer having to get used to it on the first lap or two of a points race. If it saves me, or anyone else from running into someone and costing them a race, how can it not be a good thing?

As far as qualy goes, this group has always done a great job of spreading out and giving each other plenty of room during the session, so I can't imagine that the draft would come into play on any more than the rare occasion.

 

[Johnnypenso]

To be honest, in my own opinion I like the idea of the draft during qualifying. Overall I don't think it would have a really major effect but it would give the mid-pack guys a chance to qualify closer to the front from time to time and perhaps inject some more variety into our races. The fast guys would still be at the front, but they might have a TrackBound or a NCemtB amongst them to make things interesting. This would likely be sorted out in a lap or two and everyone would be back to their proper pack position. I'm sure Carr is getting a bit tired of running up front all alone.

If the draft effect is available to everyone then no one or no group of drivers has any particular advantage or disadvantage. It's just as likely to help a front runner as it is a backmarker. Given that front runners are faster, it's actually more likely they'll catch a slower driver and benefit from drafting during qualifying.

The other side of drafting during qualifying is, it's possibly going to bring 2 cars closer together than they normally would be. Given that we're supposed to give each other room during qualifying, should we be attempting to draft pass someone? Should we be going into corners side by side as if we are racing, during qualifying? Should the lead car give way? Should we be using the draft to follow someone closely during qualifying, possibly throwing them off their qualifying run? Last season I got passed more than once during the warm up lap in qualifying while trying to give a little space in front of me which I wasn't too happy about, is adding the draft effect going to cause drivers to be in "race mode" in Q sessions?

I'm throwing these things out for you guys to think about. I don't care if we leave the draft in or not during qualifying, but I would like some etiquette spelled out for how we'll handle draft passing and running close together during qualifying should we choose to use it.

 

[BrandonW77]

I have to say that I am rather happy to see the draft now present in free run... For a lesser skilled/experienced guy like me, having the opportunity to get familiar with the draft during free run will save a lot of headache and anxiety when I'm no longer having to get used to it on the first lap or two of a points race. If it saves me, or anyone else from running into someone and costing them a race, how can it not be a good thing?

As far as qualy goes, this group has always done a great job of spreading out and giving each other plenty of room during the session, so I can't imagine that the draft would come into play on any more than the rare occasion.

👍

That was a point I was going to bring up about having the draft on during practice. The one huge benefit of having the draft on during practice is that we will properly learn the track. We spend upwards of an hour driving around, learning our braking points, turn-in points, etc., but then the race starts and with the draft we now are carrying 5-10mph more into the turns which means our braking points have changed. Figure in aero-push and we end up with a completely different environment then we do our practicing in and that catches some of us off guard. So having the draft on during practice, I think, is a good thing.

EDIT: @JP, that was another thing I was going to bring up: If you're drafting someone in qualifying that means you've got traffic to deal with and it means you're going to be right by another car when you get to a turn. This scenario rarely results in a faster time and would most likely negate any advantage gained by drafting. I think we'd all quickly realize that we'd rather not be in the draft because having to deal with the lead car will end up hurting us more than helping us (most of the time). Sure, you got an extra couple mph going down the front stretch at GVE-R, but what are you gonna do when you get to turn 1 and you're bumper-to-bumper with another car? This is generally called a self-correcting problem. And while spelling out etiquette is good in theory, I have no way to review a replay of qualifying so there's not really any way to enforce it. Our group as a whole does a decent job of spreading out during qualifying and I make the session long enough that if you are blocked by traffic you have several more chances to get a flying lap in. That being said, we're most likely not going to have drafting on during qualifying so these issues won't be of concern.

 

[Johnnypenso]

👍

EDIT: @JP, that was another thing I was going to bring up: If you're drafting someone in qualifying that means you've got traffic to deal with and it means you're going to be right by another car when you get to a turn. This scenario rarely results in a faster time and would most likely negate any advantage gained by drafting. I think we'd all quickly realize that we'd rather not be in the draft because having to deal with the lead car will end up hurting us more than helping us (most of the time). Sure, you got an extra couple mph going down the front stretch at GVE-R, but what are you gonna do when you get to turn 1 and you're bumper-to-bumper with another car? This is generally called a self-correcting problem. And while spelling out etiquette is good in theory, I have no way to review a replay of qualifying so there's not really any way to enforce it. Our group as a whole does a decent job of spreading out during qualifying and I make the session long enough that if you are blocked by traffic you have several more chances to get a flying lap in. That being said, we're most likely not going to have drafting on during qualifying so these issues won't be of concern.

I respectfully disagree...lol. If you are following someone in the draft and on their bumper and a competitive driver as most of us are, are you going to sacrifice one or maybe all of your qualifying laps by reducing your pace to that of the driver in front of you or slowing enough to rebuild a 1 or 2 second gap? Or are you going to try to find a way to get by to get some clean air? The qualifying sessions are rather short to begin with and most of the time you can't afford to lose 1 good lap, especially if it is the last lap with the warmest tires and your best chance to get a good time on the board.

 

[carracerptp]

If the draft effect is available to everyone then no one or no group of drivers has any particular advantage or disadvantage. It's just as likely to help a front runner as it is a backmarker. Given that front runners are faster, it's actually more likely they'll catch a slower driver and benefit from drafting during qualifying.

My only worry is that a pair of fast guys would head out and bump draft or draft hop around the track setting untouchable lap times. I don't think we have people that desperate for P1 though...
I think it won't really be a problem, the front of the grid may get a bigger gap but it may also mix up the grid a bit. My only suggestion is ditch the extra point for the pole. That should keep everyone honest.

 

[BrandonW77]

Or are you going to try to find a way to get by to get some clean air?

I think this was kind of my point: trying to find a way to get by someone is likely going to cost you more time then you would gain by being in the draft, thus most people would try to avoid these situations. Again, these are all situations that real-world racers face, and while I do try to accommodate and make things a little more sterile in certain situations I'm not going to water things down too much. Everyone generally gets 4-5 hot laps during qualifying, that should be enough time to get one good lap in. I try to make it fair but I do not guarantee that everyone is going to get their ideal/perfect lap during qualifying. This is how racing works, there are no guarantees and it's up to every driver to evaluate the situation and react accordingly. I guess we need to decide if we want to be realistic or arcady? How much should I water things down? Should I try to cater to each individual driver or try to accommodate the group as a whole? Should I just have collisions off during the race so nobody gets bumped or blocked by another driver and feels like they were done wrong?

My only worry is that a pair of fast guys would head out and bump draft or draft hop around the track setting untouchable lap times. I don't think we have people that desperate for P1 though...
I think it won't really be a problem, the front of the grid may get a bigger gap but it may also mix up the grid a bit. My only suggestion is ditch the extra point for the pole. That should keep everyone honest.

This is pretty much how I see things. There are lots of issues that could arise but that doesn't mean they will arise and in my experience this group does a great job of preventing issues from arising, so I tend to avoid making a bunch of rules based on the unlikely probability of something happening. When issues arise, I address them, usually not before. But as I said earlier, we will most likely just have collisions/draft off during qualifying and do a manual grid line up as this is the only real way to prevent unforeseen issues from arising without adding a bunch of unnecessary complication to the proceedings.

 

[dsgerbc]

With weaker draft I'm okay with quali w./draft. Unless there is obvious collusion (which we'll have to ban specifically) the draft is only gonna matter enough to worry too much on draftfest tracks, where qualifying is pointless anyway. So I'd just add no-collusion clause to the rules and require initial gap of ~5 seconds or so. Manual line-ups annoy me to no end, especially when people start going back&forth and raping their horns.

 

[dsgerbc]

Or, introduce two-driver teams (not allowing top dogs team up) and anything goes. Kills the incentive to help anyone other than your teammate.

 

[BrandonW77]

With weaker draft I'm okay with quali w./draft. Unless there is obvious collusion (which we'll have to ban specifically) the draft is only gonna matter enough to worry too much on draftfest tracks, where qualifying is pointless anyway. So I'd just add no-collusion clause to the rules and require initial gap of ~5 seconds or so. Manual line-ups annoy me to no end, especially when people start going back&forth and raping their horns.

👍 I'm also of these general opinions. If the draft truly is weaker now, that makes all of this less of an issue. Also, if the draft is good for a one second improvement on a lap, most of the mid-pack guys (like myself) are generally 1.5-2+ seconds slower than the front of the pack, so it likely wouldn't be much of an issue. And manual line-ups annoy me to no end as well, for a multitude of reasons. But, we'll see what kind of results the testing yields.

It may sound like I'm lobbying in support of draft during qualifying, that is not my intention. I just want to keep things as simple as possible and having to duck out after qualifying to change a setting, necessitating a manual grid line-up is not as simple as things used to be. If there is an alternate option that would not require a manual grid line-up I would like to find it, but this doesn't seem likely.

 

[Torzilla]

You sir are awesome. Up beat and no quit in ya. Dare I say. You are one game dog. that is a compliment of the highest order with in my world of dogs.

I appreciate the sentiment but I think you might be misinformed. There are times in races where Im so far behind I just pull over and hit the crack pipe.

 

[BrandonW77]

^ And drink a couple Four Loko's.

I did a couple quick laps around Motegi Road at lunch, I didn't notice any major differences in the car (by itself on track with no draft) so at least I know that is one variable we don't need to be too concerned about. I guess there may have been a little more front end grip but nothing major. I think I noticed a "rasp" to the engine sound that didn't used to be there?? I did have the wrong shoes on so it all felt a bit strange but I wanted to be sure the racing wasn't going to be drastically changed and I don't think it will be, it's just the stuff before the race that will be different. 👍

 

[cnd01]

With draft in qualifying, only the tracks with long straights will be affected significantly. Daytona or Indy Road isn't on the schedule. IRL you can't turn draft off, so I think we should keep it on unless we get some angry competitors who get taken out in qualifying.

 

[BrandonW77]

IRL you can't turn draft off, so I think we should keep it on unless we get some angry competitors who get taken out in qualifying.

We already have some and we haven't even done a qualifying session yet.

 

[cnd01]

We already have some and we haven't even done a qualifying session yet.

That's never good I actually like the update. Whatever you decide should be ok with me as long as we don't have ghost cars in the race.

 

[BrandonW77]

.....as long as we don't have ghost cars in the race.

NEVER!!!!! I hate ghost cars, totally defeats the whole purpose of why we're here.

 

[cnd01]

NEVER!!!!! I hate ghost cars, totally defeats the whole purpose of why we're here.

Good call 👍

 

[Marcus Garvey]

I'll be in the room this evening off and on if anyone wants to run some laps.

 

[OwensRacing]

With weaker draft I'm okay with quali w./draft. Unless there is obvious collusion (which we'll have to ban specifically) the draft is only gonna matter enough to worry too much on draftfest tracks, where qualifying is pointless anyway. So I'd just add no-collusion clause to the rules and require initial gap of ~5 seconds or so. Manual line-ups annoy me to no end, especially when people start going back&forth and raping their horns.

Hey now I resemble those remarks. LoL I like my horn and doing burnouts. Hyperactive maybe.

 

[BrandonW77]

I'll be in the room this evening off and on if anyone wants to run some laps.

I'll be on in about 30-40 minutes, just gotta throw some groceries down my neck first.

 

[dsgerbc]

Hey now I resemble those remarks. LoL I like my horn and doing burnouts. Hyperactive maybe.

Lol, if it was only you, Jeff, or you were the worst case, that'd be acceptable.

 

[BrandonW77]

I'll be on in about 5-10 minutes for some testing if we get enough people we'll do a couple qualifying runs, one with and one without draft. We'll need a good sample set though, at least 7-8 drivers of varying speeds.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

I'm in the room now. I'm just relaxing right now having just got in, but I'll be there.

We did a bit of testing last night, although I think we only had 5 or 6 drivers in the room. I'm going to try and get a keyboard connected to my PS3 in a couple of minutes as well.

 

[bdubclub]

I might be able to get home in time to hop in and turn some laps with everyone. I would prefer we just left the draft on in qualifying, I'm in it for the good races, and am indifferent about where my starting position is.