ORCA Silvia Spec Cup - SEASON COMPLETE, CARRACERPTP SUPREME ORCA CHAMP

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Alfa who?
 
Yeah. The Alfa is pretty much responsible for me being a part of this group. I came for the Alfa, stayed for the good people.

That said, we should try a Taurus SHO series. I hear those cars are real loose.
 
Karts may be the way to go if the understeer is worse.
 
cnd01
Karts may be the way to go if the understeer is worse.

The understeer isn't anything major. Dan and I did some driving last night and in my opinion the changes are very subtle (as they usually are). As I said to him last night, there may be a tad bit more understeer but it's a "better" understeer. It almost feels progressive and more natural. At least in non-tuned cars the differences seem to be of no real consequence.

The Alfa was great, I've always wanted to race the $20mil Jag. :sly:
 
The understeer isn't anything major. Dan and I did some driving last night and in my opinion the changes are very subtle (as they usually are). As I said to him last night, there may be a tad bit more understeer but it's a "better" understeer. It almost feels progressive and more natural. At least in non-tuned cars the differences seem to be of no real consequence.

The Alfa was great, I've always wanted to race the $20mil Jag. :sly:

FR's and MR's are much more driveable now on their stock tires with stock tunes that's for sure. The loss of grip in cornering or acceleration is much more progressive. You can fling them about with more confidence now and keep your pace up even as the back end is swinging around. But with FF's trying to control the back end in cornering wasn't an issue, it was getting the back end loose enough for it to rotate, which has just become a little harder.
 
Damn, it seems like the physics are finally right to start a yellowbird league on CS/SH tires. Too bad that the general trend in GT5 attendance is gonna kill it.
I had lotsa fun yesterday in the BTR, I suspect the bird to be just as awesome now.
 
Damn, it seems like the physics are finally right to start a yellowbird league on CS/SH tires. Too bad that the general trend in GT5 attendance is gonna kill it.
I had lotsa fun yesterday in the BTR, I suspect the bird to be just as awesome now.

I was thinking the same thing..I got an RGT in a shuffle race last night and it was a thing of beauty:sly:
 
Marcus Garvey


Yep. I'd be all over it.


The BTR - Yellow Bird would be fun options. But Jag premium interior. Mmmmm
 
OwensRacing
Yep. I'd be all over it.

The BTR - Yellow Bird would be fun options. But Jag premium interior. Mmmmm

That Jag has THE best rear-view on the triple monitors, no contest. I have to refrain from using it because I end up staring and not looking where I'm going.
 
Following thread for future updates.
 
If we go Yellowbird or Jaguar, I will lose respect for anyone who paints their car.
 
LancerEvo7
If we go Yellowbird or Jaguar, I will lose respect for anyone who paints their car.

Even if we use an ultra-classy color shift paint?? :nervous:
 
If we go Yellowbird or Jaguar, I will lose respect for anyone who paints their car.

What if I were to paint the Yellowbird a different shade of yellow or the Jaguar a different shade of green.
 
[I am going to hop in the room in a moment and give the new update a few tests using my previous lap times.] - Original Post

I've completed a bit of testing and my earliest experience with the new update. All conclusions have come from various laps incorporating several tyre selection and wear characteristic changes while driving our Silvia upon GVE/R. The combination of short lap time, consistently achievable performance, and varied composition turns lead me to the decision to use this course. While the conclusions are drawn from experiences with this combination, I would suspect them to extrapolate to other similar layouts. I'll try and keep this as brief as possible, but there is a lot I am seeing here.

First impression; wow. Everything I've read has been true. What I haven't read, though, is the how and the why. In my opinion, the approach to driving in the game has changed. The tyre model is where I believe these changes lie.

To corroborate the common sentiments; the car feels pushier. As in more understeer. Using the 'Normal' tyre wear and Sport Softs, the steady state lateral grip of the car appears to have increased. The final turn is perhaps the most significant and repeatable example, however increased minimum cornering speeds were witnessed in every turn. This also contributes to a higher peak speed along the main straightaway, similar to the 2.07 update before the aero revisions.

It feels to me that longitudinal grip has also increased, creating the understeer that folks are describing. One indicator I've found was the increased braking power of the car, making my second impression 'wow this stops, now.' The car also does not spin the tyres upon exit with near the ease that it would in the prior update. This seems to compound the push, as increased longitudinal grip upon exit provides increased acceleration and reduced load upon the front tyres, resulting in understeer. This pushes the tip-in point for the throttle later in the turn, resulting in lower lap times. As what I note to be a side effect of the increased braking grip causing a reduced load upon the rear tyres; the car had a tendency toward pronounced corner entry oversteer.

Another change in the tyre model that I observe, and I've yet to see mentioned; is the effect of slip angle upon the grip of the tyres. This also affects the breakaway characteristics of the tyres. In previous updates, peak grip was achieved with much greater slip angle than appears necessary in the latest. The increased grip of the car that I noted only seems to be available with minimal steering angles, making the car much more difficult to drive consistently. Tyre scrub seems to be increased significantly. When these optimum angles are exceeded the car feels much less responsive to the input, in other words it is slower to recover grip. This makes the car less consistent, as well the increased scrub penalises any mistakes greater than before. It also makes one 'wander' upon the track width to reduce slip angles to produce the best lap times. I feel this was lacking in the game previously.

The final change I believe may have occured, is the aerodynamic drag. While I noted increased mean cornering speeds in the final corner, they do not seem to correlate with the increased peak speed along the main straightaway. I also observed that the increase in understeer was much more apparent in the longer turns, and I might almost conclude the car was more loose in the lower speed turns than previously. This further convinced me that front downforce effect was likely reduced.

Overall, most will opine that the car is pushier, tending towards understeer. I would suggest that in some ways the car feels more realistic. Honestly, a 280hp car with downforce on tyres with the ability to carry steady state grip over 1.5g should not be burning out at 80mph while cornering at under .8g, regardless of how destroyed the differential is. I've commented in the past on how I've felt the game was misrepresenting the relation between longitudinal and lateral grip. I've felt this was kindly a band-aid for the real problem; that the cars were too stable with aggressive inputs and slip angles. I felt the burnout-happy model allowed players to rotate cars and drift in an unrealistic way. In that manner I feel the game has actually improved, much to the contrary of many. I do agree with others I've read, that this will change the racing dynamic in many series.

After my findings above, I decided to experiment with the new changes a bit. With no conclusions drawn, I found that the 'Normal' consumption to be considerably reduced from even the recent 2.08 update. Tyres and fuel appears spent at perhaps 60-70% the rate previous, if not less. Increasing the wear rate does not only seem to increase the rate of consumption, but also how quickly the tyres achieve temperature. Optimum temperatures and peak laptimes were reached in fewer laps, nearly half that, of the 'Normal' setting. Oh yeah, the data. Previously at GVE/R my average 'hotlap' time in 5 laps was 1'07.6xx, now only reaching a 1'07.9xx consistently.

Lastly, I realise that on the surface many will conclude that cars are pushier, not as fun, and that the Silvia now feels like a pig in lipstick. I won't entirely disagree, but it is not so black and white, it is just different. I agree that using the parameters that we have with the Silvia, on the whole it is less 'exciting' in regards to power-on oversteer, and it develops a mid-late corner push that wasn't as pronounced. I also feel that there is a remedy. Reduce the grip. Testing the car on Sport Mediums, it feels very similar to its prior state. On Sports Hards the car is downright unruly. I realise that the series has concluded with this car, but I feel the findings here may be applied to others.
 
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Well said Marcus, thanks for the detailed report. I think I agree with all of it, the parts I understand anyway...lol..:ouch:
 
Spectacular write-up Marcus. The thing that is a real shame is that in about 2 months we've gone from possibly the worst version of the game to the best version of the game and now we can't even get enough people on the grid to have a decent race. I think we need to take a little time to feel out all the new features and physics before we move forward with anything new.
 
Tried a stock ZR1 on the ring last night. Im not sure I like the game anymore.

Obviously give time for myself to adapt. However initially. I'm not liking it.

IRacing. I hear you calling.
 
OwensRacing
Tried a stock ZR1 on the ring last night. Im not sure I like the game anymore.

Obviously give time for myself to adapt. However initially. I'm not liking it.

IRacing. I hear you calling.

Really? I guess I need to do more testing as I hardly notice a difference.
 
Great post Marcus, even though I'm not skilled enough to feel all those differences.
It should be distributed more widely. I suggest cross-posting here.

Jeff, try the RR cars, they are much more drivable now and less frustrating. I made it around the ring in the yellowbird on CM tires on the first try w/o crashing.
 
I should clarify that in spite of my concerns or reservations about my Civic I really like the way things feel now. The particular Civic I am talking about has a very low weight and I cannot use ballast to tune out the oversteer, but I'm sure with ballast in the mix it would be just fine. Overall, I find it much more enjoyable and predictable to drive higher powered street cars on their proper tires. Did some shuffling last night which I don't normally do, to be forced to drive in race conditions, cars I wouldnt normally drive. We went from 380-500PP and while a couple of the 4wd's did understeer a bit, most of the cars felt fantastic. Even the 4wd's you could throw it into a nice oversteer entering the corner with a flick of the wheel and a rear favoured BB. I drove a 500pp Zonda C12 on SH tires and it was magnificent, a very smooth transition to oversteer on entry and easily controllable with a little throttle.

I know the Alfa has been suggested again, I suggest we pull it out on SM or SH tires this time and give it a go!!
 
All in all - I'm not sure how to feel about this update. I like the changes when you still have grip, I like that you don't have to give it a crazy slip angle to maximize grip, suits me much more. Before, I had to consiously tell myself to crank that wheel during qualifying, otherwise I wa losing at least half a second. On the other hand, I don't like the tire model once you're sliding. There should be much less grip once the tires break off.
 
I haven't tested much (only 1 car on 2 tracks). My main complaint is how the rear of the car feels, I just don't like the way if feels on the edge of grip.
The way we can't make "mid corner" adjustments anymore is great. The first thing I noticed in iRacing was that I couldn't do it. And I don't see real racecar drivers doing it either.
 
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The way we can't make "mid corner" adjustments anymore is great. The first thing I noticed in iRacing was that I couldn't do. And I don't see real racecar drivers doing it either.

Keen observation. I have no experience with Iracing, but in real life when you are fully utilising the available traction there is little left to change trajectory. I felt in the past because of this that the game somewhat rewarded jerky inputs and otherwise unrealistic control responses. This appears to have changed for the better.

I do agree with Owens, as well, that upon initial observation everything felt sluggish and pushy. Reducing the tyre grip does bring back some of the liveliness of the cars and restore some balance, but I can see how some of the hooning is less entertaining than before.
 
Has anyone driven the karts with the new physics? I wonder how they feel now?
 
Keen observation. I have no experience with Iracing, but in real life when you are fully utilising the available traction there is little left to change trajectory. I felt in the past because of this that the game somewhat rewarded jerky inputs and otherwise unrealistic control responses. This appears to have changed for the better.

I have always looked at tires thinking they only can do some much, after 100% is given, they stop working. In GT5 it felt like the game gives you extra "grip" at some point in a turn.

Has anyone driven the karts with the new physics? I wonder how they feel now?

I did for 10 seconds, at trial mountain. Then I forgot tire wear need to be turned ON so I exited and changed into a car. I'll be doing a full test tonight.
 
OK, after a bit of "actual" testing I would brake it down like:
+ You can't use the "mid corner" fix anymore *.
+ The RWD cars are easier to drive.
+ Corner exit feels better.
- * But... you can still throw the car around like an crazy man and still make time.
- Slides are easy to catch, drifting is to easy now (base on what I "think"). The rear tires have to much grip past the limit.
- The rear tires don't feel right to me, to much or not enough grip in the wrong places at lower speeds.
- Much harder to spin a car.
 
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