ORCA Silvia Spec Cup - SEASON COMPLETE, CARRACERPTP SUPREME ORCA CHAMP

[Blind829]

I might be around again tonight for some more racing if anybody's interested.

There's a good possibility I may be able to dust of the cobwebs and make it To confirm, we're testing 575PP FR cars on SS tires with tuning prohibited?

 

[BrandonW77]

There's a good possibility I may be able to dust of the cobwebs and make it To confirm, we're testing 575PP FR cars on SS tires with tuning prohibited?

That's what we were running last night, yes. I'm kind of trying to test a range of things. We can run those again tonight but I'd also like to test street cars at 400 or 420pp/FR on CS tires, I've had very good results with that range as well and would like to see if they race as well as they hot lap. 👍

Cars I've tested at 400pp/FR/CS, all turned nearly identical times during testing at GVE.

89 Skyline GTS R32
90 RX-7 GT-X fcj
97 Supra S2-R
05 BMW 330i
96 Nissan 200sx


EDIT: 50/50 on tonight, something might supersede racing.

 

[Naptown25rs]

EDIT: 50/50 on tonight, something might supersede racing.

For your sake, I hope it involves beer and/or boobs!

 

[RDAardvark]

^^^ Excellent!

I'll be snoring away if you do hit the track this evening, but would anyone be interest in coming out to play on Saturday? 3pm EDT = 8PM UK time.

 

[BrandonW77]

For your sake, I hope it involves beer and/or boobs!

You got half of it right! I could make you right on both counts if I stop at the liquor store.

^^^ Excellent!

I'll be snoring away if you do hit the track this evening, but would anyone be interest in coming out to play on Saturday? 3pm EDT = 8PM UK time.

I should be, let's plan on it! 👍

 

[Marcus Garvey]

^^^ Excellent!

I'll be snoring away if you do hit the track this evening, but would anyone be interest in coming out to play on Saturday? 3pm EDT = 8PM UK time.

It is a little early in the week for me to be able to commit, but if I am available I can certainly pop round.

 

[Naptown25rs]

You got half of it right! I could make you right on both counts if I stop at the liquor store.

Hellz Yeah! :nasioc banana:

 

[BrandonW77]

Hellz Yeah! :nasioc banana:

Keep your banana to yourself!!! lol

 

[Naptown25rs]

Keep your banana to yourself!!! lol

Don't go all Bob Varsha on her...

 

[BrandonW77]

Don't go all Bob Varsha on her...

Did you hear what they said on Sunday??

Looks like I should be on tonight around 8pm EST.......but not Friday night.

 

[Naptown25rs]

Did you hear what they said on Sunday??

I did not... Or if I did, I missed it.

 

[BrandonW77]

I did not... Or if I did, I missed it.

Varsha said (to Hobbs): "Remember that broadcast where they showed the pretty girl and I said 'There's somebody's girlfriend' and you said 'She can be my girlfriend if she plays her cards right'."

 

[dsgerbc]

You got half of it right!

Half of boobs is still a boob....

 

[BrandonW77]

Half of boobs is still a boob....

And one boob is better than no boob!

I'm watching a MX-5 Cup race from Road Atlanta and they're bump drafting down the straight just like we do.

 

[OwensRacing]

This thread now has my attention.


I've got this chick named Shelby. Young black girl. She has like 12 boobies. Did I mention Shelby is one of my dogs. LoL

 

[BrandonW77]

This thread now has my attention.

I've got this chick named Shelby. Young black girl. She has like 12 boobies. Did I mention Shelby is one of my dogs. LoL

So, what, we had lost you until the boob talk??

I'm getting ready to fire up the GT5 machine, lounge should be open in 5-10 minutes.

 

[Naptown25rs]

So, what, we had lost you until the boob talk??

I'm getting ready to fire up the GT5 machine, lounge should be open in 5-10 minutes.

I thought maybe he was with a chick from Total Recall or something until I got to the dog part...

 

[dsgerbc]

I did not keep track of times tonight. A vague recollection of the cars I've tried relative to brz/gt86.
01 s2000 type v? - at least half a second slower
Some tuner s2k '00 - about the same as above
'03 rx8 - close to those two
88 supra tt - about a second off brz
NC miata about 1.5 off.

That's all I can recall, that wasn't several seconds off.

 

[BrandonW77]

Yeah, there was a little more variability at this range but it's a bell curve with the majority being closely matched and a couple outliers at the top and bottom. I think 400pp has too broad a choice of cars which leads to more variability. If I were to push it up a bit to about 415-420pp it would eliminate a few cars and probably even up the field a bit. I would guess the BRZ is around 415pp fully broken in, based on what we saw last night it would actually be able to run competitively with 420pp cars. But a lot of the cars that are around 400-415pp would be eliminated at the 420pp range so it would "force" people into a smaller group of cars that would hopefully be more balanced to each other. My only concern is that with a little more power the cars won't be as suited to CS tires but SH tires would have too much grip.

Speaking of, did you think CS tires were a good match for the power level? In most cars I thought they were perfect while in cars like the RX-7 they were a little wild, but then the RX-7 is a bit wild on any tire and that's part of its charm!

 

[dsgerbc]

Fully broken-in BRZ/GT86 is like 408PP I think. Bumping the limit to 420 is probably gonna make it barely competitive, which is good. Otherwise we'd have to ban it.

On tires, CS were appropriate for the BRZ/GT86 before 2.09. Now, at least to me, it feels a lot better on CM. But I like cars that force me to be smooth and practice partial throttle more. Yesterday I think I found at most one or two cars where I had to watch my right foot in more than one corner. So, I think I can manage on CS. Especially if we move up to 420pp.

 

[BrandonW77]

Fully broken-in BRZ/GT86 is like 408PP I think. Bumping the limit to 420 is probably gonna make it barely competitive, which is good. Otherwise we'd have to ban it.

Are you sure? My BRZ was at 409pp and I don't think it has any actual miles on it, or very few.

 

[dsgerbc]

Are you sure? My BRZ was at 409pp and I don't think it has any actual miles on it, or very few.

Probably has a spoiler or smth. Or broken-in.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

I came a little late to the party and only had a few cars that made regulation, but here are my recollections.

Basing everything off the best lap of the Toyobaru in the room(I believe it was Car's lap??), the rest of the cars fell in line as below on Autumn Ring. As a disclaimer I did not time the Toyobaru myself, and was using the existing time as a benchmark to compare the following cars. While the data may be skewed because of this, I feel we are all close enough in performance that I am confident in comparing these times with someone else's benchmark as I did last night.

AP1 S2000; .2-.3 off pace (if you hustle it, it might be competitive)
AP2 S2000; .4-.5 off pace (would be faster on other tracks, but gearing hurts at Autumn Ring)
BMW 330; .4-.7 off pace
FC RX-7; 1.0-1.3 off pace
Merc SLKsomething; 1.2-1.4 off pace
Chevrolet SSR; 1.4 off pace
IROC Camaro; 1.4 off pace
Toyoto Corolla (shigeno); 1.4-1.6 off pace

I know there were at least a couple of others I drove, but they must have been rather forgettable, as I have already forgotten them. What I do recall, however, is that they were all further off pace and thus not requiring any notation.

The rest is a bit of a ramble here. As a sidenote to elaborate upon my comment that when dealing with a PP limited roster, while all running on equal low-grip tyres; weight will often be the deciding factor on technical circuits like Autumn Ring. Also, power reduction on a car with a flatter torqueband is less detrimental to acceleration, as long as the gearing is proper. The SSR is an example of this, where it has a fair amount of torque, but the 4L60E gear ratios reduce the torque at the wheels too much to handle mid-speed turns. 3rd gear is useless. Bounce off 2nd the whole lap is faster. This is why I believe the Toyobaru to have such an advantage at this level. It has S2000 weight, with flatter torque, thus losing less area under the curve with the limiter. Also, being 413pp at break-in, it isn't limited as severely. Again, the lightest of the cars I tested aside from the Shigeno, which was way over-limited to make pp. There is a sweet spot here between finding a lightweight car that won't push when throttle-oversteer is reduced along with the power, but not something that is so severely limited that you have to shift at 3k to stay in the band.

Lastly, these numbers are only valid on Autumn Ring. The BMW with it's big power could potentially trounce the S2000s on a course with slow turns preceeding longer straightaways, such as Laguna. I may update this post if other bits pop into my head.

Edit: A few posts popped up since I began this post, and to reply to those; my FT-86 was 413PP fully broken in. I am not sure if this is the same for the FR-S and the BRZ. Also, referencing any possible change to 420PP, I believe that you would likely see a much different parity. Some of these cars tested at 400 were severely limited, and would likely see some large gains with the jump to 420. For example, if the S2000s got back 20PP they lost, I am confident they would be running ahead of the Toyobarus(given they max stock at 413). Also, the BMW would get back most of the top half of its rev range back. I was short shifting the snot out of that one.

 

[dsgerbc]

This is why I believe the Toyobaru to have such an advantage at this level.

I don't think BRZ/GT86's advantage is due to gearing/powerband. It just carries more speed through corners.

I was short shifting the snot out of that one.

Why? Given gearing, you shift to maximize HP, makes zero sense to short shift to end up in the rev-range with less HP. In a severely limited car you'll end up at the same HP after the shift, so it won't matter at all. I doubt PD models drivetrain losses as dependent on RPMs.

 

[carracerptp]

I really don't think a "road cars" at any 4**PP level will work. I still have a good .5 left in GT86 lap. At the road car level I think the differences in pace become more obvious. We would really need to find a PP that doesn't have a dominate car and add a "fresh oil" and no more than 1-2% limiter rule.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

I don't think BRZ/GT86's advantage is due to gearing/powerband. It just carries more speed through corners.

It wasn't simply the powerband/gearing, but those combined with the same weight as the S2000 gave the car not only more area under the curve(average tq at the wheels) but a more useable powerband that didn't fall on it's face at 6k like the S2000. The S2000 was so severely limited that it was a flatfoot affair from T1 to T6, as well as the exit for T7 and all of T8. The Toyobaru on the one lap I made I was definitely tip-toeing through those to control the power.

Why? Given gearing, you shift to maximize HP, makes zero sense to short shift to end up in the rev-range with less HP. In a severely limited car you'll end up at the same HP after the shift, so it won't matter at all. I doubt PD models drivetrain losses as dependent on RPMs.

It is all about Tq at the wheels. When we limit these cars, the Tq begins to fall at the point where the HP peaks. So while the HP stays flat, actual power at the wheels, and thus acceleration, is reduced. The 330, for example, accelerates harder at 4k rpm than it does at 7k rpm when limited to 400PP. I wish I had access to my PS3 to provide exact figures for that car, but going off recollection there was only about half the Tq available at redline as there is at peak, which I think was between 4 and 5k rpm when limited. Leaving the 330 aside, to be general, a car with 230ft-lbs at 4k rpm is going to pull much harder(at that rpm) than a car with 230hp at 7500rpm (at that rpm). And I've yet to see a car that produces both 230ft-lbs@4k and 200hp@7500. A car making 230ft-lbs at 4k is also making 175hp at that 4k rpm. A car making 230hp at 7500rpm is only making 161ft-lbs at that 7500 rpm.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

I really don't think a "road cars" at any 4**PP level will work. I still have a good .5 left in GT86 lap. At the road car level I think the differences in pace become more obvious. We would really need to find a PP that doesn't have a dominate car and add a "fresh oil" and no more than 1-2% limiter rule.

This man is not lying. ^^

I made sure to only run one or two laps in each car, knowing that for testing purposes there would be time left on the table for all of them. I would expect all of them to gain at least a few tenths with more seat time. Everything was also tested at default braking bias, which as well some cars may benefit from, and others not.

While I think for the fun factor and change of scenery, what we're testing here is a lot fun. I might almost argue that testing these is more fun to me than even the racing, but I'm a bit odd for certain. With the level of closeness a lot of us drive in pace to each other, a car that is .3 slower per lap turns into being a full straightaway behind in a 10 lap race. I think these factors will likely continue to contribute to the group's propensity for 'spec' racing. Don't take this post as my condemnation of this proposal, as this is all fun to me. I am on board with wherever we head.

 

[dsgerbc]

It is all about Tq at the wheels

Of course it is. But if you do the math you'll find that by shortshifting into rpms with less HP you get less tq at the wheels at you shift mph.

Leaving the 330 aside, to be general, a car with 230ft-lbs at 4k rpm is going to pull much harder(at that rpm) than a car with 230hp at 7500rpm (at that rpm). And I've yet to see a car that produces both 230ft-lbs@4k and 200hp@7500. A car making 230ft-lbs at 4k is also making 175hp at that 4k rpm. A car making 230hp at 7500rpm is only making 161ft-lbs at that 7500 rpm.

If you're at the same speed at 7.5k rpm in gear X and at 4k in gear Y>X in that hypothetical car (161 and 230 of torque at the flywheel) and the redline is 8k, you will absolutely accelerate faster at 7.5k. 30% faster. Because transmission.

 

[BrandonW77]

With the level of closeness a lot of us drive in pace to each other, a car that is .3 slower per lap turns into being a full straightaway behind in a 10 lap race.

I think I shall call you The Professor from now on.

In my opinion .3 seconds slower would not result in any difference after 10 laps unless you are by yourself on the track without a draft. .3 seconds is literally a blink of an eye and it's easily close enough to keep you in the draft. In all the seasons I have run a series I am always 1-2 full seconds off the fast guys in terms of raw lap times but as long as I can stay with the lead pack's draft I can be right there until the end (barring any mistakes or incidents). In fact on Monday night I was able to stay right with Carr around Nurb GP/D, passed him and won a race even though during practice I was nearly 1.5 seconds off his pace.

Now, as you said, Autumn Ring is different and there isn't as much drafting so the gap could/would open a little bit, after 10 laps one or two people may have lost the draft but there would likely still be a group at the front fighting with each other. Also, if one car is .3 seconds slower in one persons hands it doesn't necessarily mean it will be slow in another persons hands, we each have our own driving style and one of the things I like about this idea is we can all pick a car that suits our driving style which, in theory, means we'll likely have a more enjoyable time. Doesn't mean we'll always be the fastest but at least we won't feel like we've been hampered as much by the car.

That being said, there is too much room for variance at 400pp and as Carr mentioned it will likely be very difficult/impossible to find a perfect set of street cars. But I gained a lot of insight from our testing over the past two nights and I have a better idea of what to focus on, I think I can still find a few sweet spots that will nudge people into a select group of 4-6 cars while other cars in the range naturally fall to the side. In reality I only want a handful of groups because if we have too many PP ranges things could get unwieldily.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

I think I shall call you The Professor from now on.

Yes, I realise that a lot of what I said is stating the obvious, but I felt I would be as comprehensive as possible. I am one of those pocket protector types. As such, I also understand the information is derived from an isolated 'laboratory clean' environment and does not take into account the draft, traffic, other circuits, and many other variables.

Again, all of this data is purely informational to me, as I may make perhaps 20% of the races that are run. I really have no dog in this.