PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by Gareth davies, Jun 4, 2018.

  1. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

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    @Groundfish It's not limited by hardware, it's limited by latency. PD changed the whole judgement algorithm to the much simpler system we have now after it became apparent that it was impossible to determine who hit who where when a little bit of latency is involved. The problem is, are you responsible for what happens on your screen or what happens on the other's screen, or for what happens when everything is correctly time synchronized on the server. 3 different versions of the same event, which only gets worse with more cars involved.

    It's limited by the laws of physics and a crappy internet infrastructure. Shared fault seems to be the only solution and people will have to learn to compensate for latency and keep more distance. The only other solution is to have the race play out on the server only and you drive with what ever latency you have to the server. That would make it a far worse experience bordering on unplayable with the speeds involved.

    What can be improved is making everyone responsible for braking on time. Miss a brake point with no hope to make the corner, SR Down, any bad thing happens, you're responsible. That would take care of the punts. Anything else depends on knowing exactly where the other cars are and what they are doing. That knowledge is unfortunately not available in real time, and even after reconstruction, can you blame a driver for re-acting to what he saw on screen instead of what really happened.
     
  2. ROCKET JOE

    ROCKET JOE

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    That's the point exactly, because there is no ... for the next 10 years or so. Shared fault is the way to go.

    To me the question is what the consequences are from ( shared ) fault being detected. I've mentioned that before and some of you might be bored already : I'd skip most of these on track penalties as I don't find them helpful nor very realistic.
    In a simplified way there's two groups of drivers - those who punt and those who get punted. There's no equal distribution however between them, a single person does belong to one or the other basically, so finally you will have one group that will rightly be penalized but doesn't even care probably, and another group that will constantly suffer injustice and ends up demotivated.
    The first and foremost goal therefor has to be separating the player base according to their mentality, match them properly and thus make penalties unnecessary more or less.

    How to get there ? I see a lot of similarities in thinking between @Sven Jurgens , @Dmac72 and me - so I second their very reasonable ideas :tup: !
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2019
  3. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    Well, the big thing would be the SR measure being time weighted average somehow.
    Imo they could really do quite a bit with the scoring.
    Like if a players stats indicate constant way up and down do something. Maybe throttle their ability to gain dr AND SR or force them to start in the back. They do that in some series. Penalize them in grid position so then when their sr gets dumped they have to start at the back or something.
    If a person constantly gets up to 99 sr then goes way back down that’s a simple indication they are not ready for 99sr.
    I mean I haven’t put much thought into the scoring system.
    I think it’s worth saying also that many folks that play and are mid level see much overdriving, like there’s a lot of fast drivers, but they are not necessarily in control fast.

    Bottom line to me is expecting an automated pen system to work flawlessly seems to much to ask. I’m definitely not one of the folks who think the system is broken though.
    I’d say on a 1-10 scale I would rate the penalty system about a seven six and a half to seven.
    With shared fault and some rating scoring system tweaks I think it would work great.

    It’s pretty good now, as long as you have 99 sr and a pretty good qual time, but it could be even better with some tweaking.

    I think a lot of the people complaining the loudest are maybe asking for too much. Don’t expect perfection.
     
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  4. Dmac72

    Dmac72

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    I’m not convinced that is much of an endorsement. Just being pretty good under the circumstances you give means it is not even “pretty good” for the majority, in which case I’d say it is far from good enough.
     
  5. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    I dunno where the average dr sr is.
    If you take say B B, it’s going to be tough because at that level people really don’t have much concept of racing or ability to control the vehicles or repeat clean laps anyhow.
    I think lower than that you have people just playing the sport mode always whether they bother to even learn a track or not before entering.
    The times when I’ve dropped down what I’ve seen is the average midpack person has trouble keeping the car on the road, much less understanding braking points or corner rights or anything else.
    There’s tons of great racing in game, but you have to get beyond average to find it more consistently. That’s my take on her.
     
  6. Dmac72

    Dmac72

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    Given that DR rating is currently based on an accumulative points total which requires time to build up, I think your assumptions of players rated at anything below B are very wrong.
    I guess 20 years of gaming experience in my own case means I know nothing about lines or braking points because I seldom race online nowadays. Despite having visited Suzuka, Monza, Interlagos a number of times and driving round the Nordschleife 7 or 8 times my track knowledge would clearly be limited. 8 years of both track and rally marshalling? What do I know?
    Lol
     
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  7. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    K'Prime says it's about low-to-mid DR B and high-ish SR B, but I think it's quite skewed by people who've done very few races (downwards for DR, towards the middle for SR).

    Yes and no... I think DR can close in on a fair level for a person reasonably quickly, but that can still mean 100 to 200 races because often the matching isn't great, meaning there are fewer points available from each race even if you win. Looking at my history, I quickly got up to mid B then the 'accumulation' started to level off until almost flat at high B. Not sure what happened next - maybe I just regained focus - but the same pattern repeated itself, with a quick rise that tailed off, leaving me at the top of A. Anyway, most of the time my DR was heading towards where it leveled out, so I see that as it working OK (not perfect by any means, but OK).
     
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  8. Dmac72

    Dmac72

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    Yep, DR rating may well give an indication of pace, resets aside. Pace will come with practice. Pace puts you up front for the race more often, where things are less brutal/easier. All this is largely true.
    However, sweeping statements that people don’t understand racing lines etc based on the current DR/SR system quite often need their flaws pointed out.
     
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  9. golfer07840

    golfer07840

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    Just do the matchmaking based on skill, not sure why this is so complicated. For the majority of people doing Sport Mode, we're just filler. If we were more evenly matched, it wouldn't be the case.

    To me, the SR is a joke anyway. I see plenty of SR S drivers, driving recklessly.
     
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  10. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    I didn't read that comment as a sweeping statement... just saying that below DR B there are quite a few who don't properly know the tracks for whatever reason. Not saying they all don't. But that's where people who don't care to learn the tracks end up, so it's a fair comment.

    It can apply to higher DRs as well, I mean, I never liked Alsace and really don't know it properly - I can easily imagine being beaten by a DR C who knew it well :lol:
     
  11. O604

    O604

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    I suggested a Qualifying Race idea before. With a Qualifying Race, matchmaking could distribute more based on average over multiple laps vs how it is now, fastest lap only (I only assume).
     
  12. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

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    DR reflects skill about as much as SR reflects clean driving. DR is not a very good indication of skill until you get above 60K. You can't get there through luck, manipulation or grinding a favorable combo. Anything below can be gamed.

    To more evenly match players, DR and SR first need to be overhauled.


    And that will be sandbagged, just as people tank SR and DR to get easier races.

    The server can keep track of all your lap times on a track and calculate your race pace that way compared to everyone else. If you want to sandbag that, well you're not going to win any races and driving below your pace is safer for everyone else on the track than the opposite. Win win.
     
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  13. Akwaaba

    Akwaaba

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    There should be a huge database about each player. These could be gamed - but it would be very difficult to do if PD use the data they have available in a logical way. So use this data for the Driver Rating. If each players DR is based on their calculated speed. How hard would it be to calculate each players speed - use an algorithm based on each players lap times. Use an average over the last x number of races, maybe a hundred. Add a multiplier for the last Y races to recognise recent progress. Allow a decay to the DR for periods of inactivity. This would sort out the DR ranking. Of course it could be gamed - but it would be quite time consuming and boring to do.

    As for SR - it should have more categories, and should be harder to bring back up to S. Most importantly, race credits should promote clean racing. The innocent will suffer, but not as much, and not as often as those who choose not to race cleanly. The second thing, I think that one of the biggest differences between clean racers and those that choose not to is that a clean racer will back of the throttle to avoid a collision, and will back-out of a move in order to race cleanly. There isn't anywhere near enough guidance and tutorials on how to race clean.
     
  14. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    I think this is the biggest trouble with it after just doing seven races.
    There will always be, say if you are c s or b s players at the top of the grid who are way way faster.
    It’s not fun for the guys in front to just drive away and it sucks for the pack guy because he never gets a clean track.
    Tonight was a rough one, very poor players out at night it seems. Morning I almost always get good racing...
    Tonight Lagos was a mess. I did have 3 of five very nice races one with a sweet photo finish where I took third barely, but the AS is a very difficult room for me.
    I took a second on c race, but it’s want battled for. I sprinted first lap and a half after starting 3 then conserved and charged home. No idea
    The reason is all these guys by this time of week have got their luckyfast qual lap. In race it’s slow going behind them but they all battle and block. For me at low a starting fifteenth or whatever it makes it tough. Also if a leader falls back by getting punted or spinning, WATCH OUT. They figure they are so much faster than everyone they have immunity. It’s annoying.
    The prob is these guys seem to treat dr like their children. When they lose it it’s like their children are getting brutalized...
    That’s in the bad races of course. They are not all bad.
    Interlagos pen system is completely broken. I had one cheat t 1 dives f on way back, saw it coming so tightened up a touch, he rubbed and went off on inside boom I get four seconds? For trying to save myself?
    Lol.
    Tonight I did five b and 2 c and kept my cool.
    As far as my point of view goes, I would be greatly helped on dr by limiting the amount of qual time each person gets for each race. These guys are so far off on pace...
    The only prob I see there is people wanna compete on qual...I’m not sure how to get both limited qual time or attempts and not give up battles on the leaderboard.

    Ultimately, if the game couldn’t piss you off when it’s bad racing then good racing wouldn’t mean much.
    I kinda like the highs and lows.

    MY BIGGEST PET PEEVE IN THIS GAME IS THE PEOPLE WHO STUFF IT UP THE INSIDE WHEN THERES NOTHING THERE. I had a fallen soldier do that after he served up his pen in b race...He stuffed it up so I punted him took two seconds and after race he made comments in another language.
    I told him...”don’t cheat”
    If that’s you reading this you deserved it.

    I WISH PD WOULD DO SOMETHING TO STOP THE NOSE SHOVER

    Doubt it will happen though, and it won’t prevent me from racing.
     
  15. GhostCaliber

    GhostCaliber (Banned)

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    Definitely don't agree with people saying that 5 second penalties when you hit a barrier are an acceptable thing...

    Often because the moronic penalty zone idea has made the game even worse, due to the penalty zones being in high speed places & then costing you more time than just the 5 second penalty.

    The penalty zone at Sarthe is on a long straight, where it costs significantly more time than what it says due to the massive difference in speed to other cars.

    They need to scrap penalty zones & at least give us back the way it was where you could bleed off ridiculous penalties over time in the braking zones.

    The amount of fake corner cutting penalties at Sarthe this week is a joke... I got a .5 penalty just for coming back onto an empty track and crossing over the kerb as I did so, tf?? How am I gaining an advantage when Im returning from the gravel.

    5 second penalties after hitting the barriers whether your own mistake or not, need to be abolished... & anyone acting like it's acceptable needs their head checked. If someone in F1 smashes into the barrier in Qually, they don't end up with a 5 second penalty to start the race next session because they messed up... Mistakes happen & shouldn't be punished when there's no advantage gained.

    Like the guy that said "outbrake yourself with no hope of making the corner? automatic SR decrease" what a load of ****.... In that scenario why can't I just go through a run off zone or avoid a collision & then return to the track without hitting anyone, without losing any SR and without gaining an advantage.

    As long as you don't gain an advantage by running off the track you should almost never be penalised.
     
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  16. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    Actually if the penalty time you received was defined as "failure to maintain control" then perhaps the basis of receiving such penalty would be considered a punishment for exceeding the tracks limits and whether you gained or loss an advantage would be irrelevant.

    Crashing, leaving the tracks racing surface, contact with another car are all results of a car not being in control and possibly negatively affected other racers not involved in the creation of the incident.

    Punishment in this case as in a time penalty would then just be another tool or reason for a driver to avoid driving at a level that they may lose control and affect the flow of the race.

    In the real world injury, loss of life or even major financial losses due to a destroyed race car help control this, in a game just making the incident more costly in position is the only deterrent.

    The whole point is to try and get drivers to drive within their controllable limits so they will not worry about a penalty to begin with.
     
  17. GhostCaliber

    GhostCaliber (Banned)

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    Thanks, I forgot that if I get punted into a barrier & received a 5 second penalty, that it's just me being out of control...Smh

    The best example i've seen of bogus penalties is still the corner after the two long straights at Sarthe... battling with people into there, and running slightly wide on the exit of the corner... So at this point, I'm on the left side of the track before that little kerb starts... & yet somehow if you cross over that kerb as you're returning to track you get a 0.5 second penalty whether or not anyone is on track with you.

    It's a joke.

    Stop trying to make it into some elitist "oh it's just you're not good enough and driving recklessly" kind of argument when it's an absolute fact that the penalty system is a shambles and doesn't account for a tonne of things, as well as giving out bogus penalties that are meant for corner cutting when in fact at no point was a corner actually cut.
     
  18. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    Funny how you try to make this into a "being elitist" conversation as being good enough, pace or how fast you are have absolutely nothing to do with maintaining control and staying within the limits or boundaries and staying on the track that the game defines as being allowable regardless if you are turning a 1:20 or a 2:20 lap at the same circuit in the same car.

    No matter how fast or slow you may be or what your dr ranking may be those track limits are the same for everyone.

    Again the game has defined limits and boundaries and as a player of the game you exceed those limits or boundaries instead of accepting you made a mistake that resulted in you being penalized you want to place the blame on the game because YOU crossed into the out of bounds limit and was penalized as a result.

    That is not a result of a bad penalty system only a player being punished and penalized for not respecting the games set parameters. You think that not gaining an advantage is reason for such violation to not be acceptable, the game thinks that more enforcement is needed to keep the racers from abusing those defined limits.

    Maybe if that area on that track results in penalties the best course of action is to make sure to not exceed the limits the game has defined there and the result will be no penalty. Not all areas on all tracks make ideal areas to be side by side racing with opponents.
     
  19. GhostCaliber

    GhostCaliber (Banned)

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    I can see you're just one of those guys that believes developers never make mistakes, that what they code into the game is just perfect 100% of the time and it's impossible that something such as penalty detection could be broken, or not working completely as intended...Because "you exceed their define limitations so you must be wrong"

    I mean, it's just impossible isn't it that the detection system is broken, that some parts of a track like Sarthe for instance are not actually corner cutting or exceeding track limits... Yet they still give us a penalty anyway.

    2 wheels still on track = within track limits... So why are people getting penalised for this when theyre still within the track...

    When it's one person complaining, or a few people then it's fair to suggest its their problem... but when it's literally 100s if not more people complaining about the same issue, guess what genius, it's a problem with the ****** script in the game and the way penalties are detected and doled out.

    Stop trying to play it down like it isn't a problem.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2019
  20. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

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    Cause you are not safe when you go off track. SR should stand for safety rating imo.

    Anyway you already get forgiven for shortcuts when you take them slow. One of my races had a very laggy start, I had to cut the chicane before the start, did it slowly and carefully to avoid traffic, no penalty. Again at the first high speed chicane, got blocked, slowed down and drove along the inside, merging back in after the chicane, no penalty. If you still get a shortcut penalty, you are not merging back in safely, too fast.

    The way it was without penalty zones was much worse with people constantly blocking you trying to bleed off a penalty bits at a time while staying ahead. Way way worse, never go back to that. No more parking lot finishes.

    Sure you don't need the penalties in qualifying, simply negate your lap for any off track excursion. When racing with others on the track, yep punishment for losing control is very acceptable. Unless of course another car bumps you out of control.

    Anyway penalties are also a substitute for damage. What do you prefer, 5 sec for smashing into a wall or wrecking your car and limp to the pit or quit :)
     
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  21. ROCKET JOE

    ROCKET JOE

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    I blame the 40 degrees Fahrenheit outside and my heated mood and me not being able to read the nuances of the English language and all that and that's why I probably shouldn't react at all but ...
    it's these certain rant style posts that always make me lol and think the poster begs for mercy and absolution while not knowing how to race properly !
    Apologies, rant over :D ...
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
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  22. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    Inconsistent track limit variables have always been in my opinion a problem in the GT franchise. Some places 2 wheels still within the track are apparently not good enough, a different corner may allow the entire car to be off the track and still be considered "within the limits". But that is a different subject altogether and has nothing to do with a broken penalty system.

    Been some pretty interested discussions on that topic over the last couple of years as well.

    The time penalty is for exceeding what PD has determined to be the boundary limit for that corner on that track. Now the penalty applied for exceeding the boundary defined by the game is not a broken penalty system but what some feel is an unjust penalty.

    Being knocked off the track by another racer through no fault of your own and being penalized is a problem with the penalty system.

    Running off the track and/or hitting a wall on your own and being penalized for not maintaining control is not a broken penalty system but a racer either making a mistake or driving over their ability.

    The penalty system has flaws, plenty of them but failing to maintain the car within the defined track boundaries and being penalized as a result is a flaw in the players driving not a broken penalty system.
     
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  23. breeminator

    breeminator

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    According to this, average is somewhere in the 1500-2199 DR range for people who have completed at least 5 races (cumulative 50% of players is reached in that range):
    https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?stat_preset=dr_distribution_sliced
    By the time you get past 12k DR, you're into the top 10%. As a check on that, I clicked on players from a leaderboard, and 15k here is top 8%
    https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?profile=2382089
     
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  24. Dmac72

    Dmac72

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    I’ve never understood why track limits should be such a problem for people.
    The race happens on the track.
    The track is defined by the white lines on either side.
    If you don’t keep at least 2 wheels on the track, then you get a penalty.
    The “but I should get away with it if.....” argument doesn’t stack up.
    The race is on the track, not beside it.

    40 Celsius possibly? 40 Fahrenheit would be a relief!!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2019
  25. ROCKET JOE

    ROCKET JOE

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    See how puzzled I am :lol: ?
    I call it STE : Synapse Transmission Error :banghead: !
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
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  26. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    Right, but that's for almost everyone. I'm not sure exactly how the line on the profile history charts ('other players average') that I went by is calculated, but I think it's average for players after that number of active days (or races). In which case it wouldn't be skewed by people who don't race, I guess, and a more useful average.

    It stops at 100 days, perhaps through lack of good data beyond that, even though some have gone well beyond: https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?profile=1495257 , but it does appear to be starting to level out at that point.
     
  27. Anthony Exton

    Anthony Exton

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    What would make for good racing is players stopping the nudges and dive bombing especially when they make a mistake and want to recover . I've had my fill of drivers causing a situation where it makes you have to react and lose your scoring just so they can increase their position , giving you a loss and a crap race . I have made my way up and then get stuck with the idiots time and time again which keeps my levels low and annoyance extremely high . They games penalty system is flawed and isn't helping the users that want to enjoy it . I've said it before but arcade comes to mind yet again and until pd decide on changing the system then I can only look at the game as a failure for a simulator but is a **** fest for idiotict ****s .
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2019
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  28. RacingGrandpa

    RacingGrandpa

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    I agree that the penalty system being bad. But I still enjoy the majority of the races I am in. Most people I meet drive clean and give room, as I try to do too.
     
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  29. Anthony Exton

    Anthony Exton

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    I agree some of the races are good and you join people that want to be fair, the problem is when you get mixed up with the idiots you cant escape from race to race so you then lose all what you make up. The penalty system is very harsh and one sided for the worst reasons.
     
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  30. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    Actually no doubt the penalty system has some glaring issues that need to be rectified.

    But many are blaming the penalty system when actually it is the ranking and matching systems that are not working as intended and continue to put dirty and/or less skilled racers in the same races with better and /or cleaner drivers together causing many of the issues being complained about.

    No penalty system is going to change a persons habits that just enjoys a bulldozer racing style and asking or expecting the penalty system to do that job and get such a person to race clean is just not a reasonable request.

    But the ranking system IF implemented correctly can and should be doing the job of separating the drivers by both skill and pace as well as SR which includes fewer racing incidents resulting in cleaner races.

    There is blame but distribute the blame where it belongs, all the problems are not as a result of a broken penalty system only by a long shot.
    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019